False Prophets the most used comeback!

[Servant19]

These comments shows how also the False Prophet line is used without any thought, study or Justice.

Would you like to actually read some of these stories before making comment such as this?

This article has a balanced view - susangammage.com/a-great-gap-to-be-crossed

This is an interesting way to look at it - adressformona.org/bahai/martyrdom1.htm

God Bless - Regards Tony

This form of opposition is exactly what the Guardian prophesied to take place from Muslims and Christians alike.

.

 

[tonyfish58]

This form of opposition is exactly what the Guardian prophesied to take place from Muslims and Christians alike.

I would expect opposition and in reality opposition is Good As apposing thoughts can bring about clarity of position.

But opposition for the mere sake

The story of Badi for example it one of the greatest transformation of an individual that could be witnessed in any Religion. It was done only for the Pure Love of God. If this is no proof then there is no proof!

The Story - bahaiwritings.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-story-of-badi-compilation.pdf
**
“Call thou to mind his honor Badí’, … and reflect how he laid down his life. … If things such as these are to be denied, what shall, then, be deemed worthy of credence”?
(Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 72) **

Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting Question

The Bab had 18 letters of the living who all found Him unaided as Tradition said they would.

The greatest stories of these were IMHO the First to believe (Mulla Husayn), an amazing story of Faith and the mysterious way that God reveals Himself. This is a wow of a story if you wish to read here is the Link - bahai-library.com/books/dawnbreakers/chapters/3.html

The next was Tahirih a great Persian Poetess of remarkable knowledge. She recognized the Bab by His writings and declared without ever meeting Him on this earth. Tahirih could very well have been the first to suffer death for women’s rights! Her story also wow and if one wishes can read about it at this link - bahai-library.com/martharoot_tahirih_pure_1938

With all due respect, these women seem like faith-filled ladies, but does that qualify them to be given the title of a prophet?

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger - Oh dear after all this time discussing Faith with Baha’is you still post words such as these

Well, of course, It’s a point that has not yet been refuted.

No Bahai prophet has ever claimed to be the one who carries our sins and atones for them before God.

That is huge, tony. HUGE.

Sin is an egregious affront to the Numinous and Perfect Godhead.

Without reparation, there is no justice…

Christs mission was Short as was the Babs, everything Christ suffered was mirrored in the Babs suffering. Their missions so closely joined in this aspect it is uncanny! This is recorded for all to judge with Justice!

Curious that you mention justice, yet have no way to atone for your sins.

Baha’u’llah suffered 40 years as foretold in the Bible, this is also recorded for all to judge with Justice.

His suffering was tragic, to be sure. But I owe nothing at all to him. He did not suffer for me, or for the entirety of humanity.

Why they submitted Their Wills to God as Christ did, to accept this suffering, is also recorded for all to see.

Sure.

Just like St. Maximilian Kolbe, for example submitted his will to God. But that doesn’t make him the equivalent of how you view Bahauallah.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Judas, friend, I’ve been away for the weekend and I return to read this post of yours…

It has to number as the most uncharitable post you have written.
On what psychological basis do you label these angels of light, these supreme servants of God, as being crazy?

Uh, first, LilyM was bringing to mind certain cults like Heaven’s Gate and the Branch Davidian, tonyfish then asked if they were applicable or compar-
able to Christian Martyrs, so I then distinguished between the cults members and Christian Martyrs, the difference being that Heaven’s Gate and the
Branch Davidians were wackadoodles and the Christian Martyrs were not. “Uncharitable” was the word you used???

Now seeing that I was labeling HGs & BDs as crazies and you ask on what basis I label
these, as you seem to be calling them, “angels of light” & “supreme servants of God” …
I think you like gone! :ehh:

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Yes, the “I” is indeed one only, one of a kind and unique. The human expression of this “I” however was announced in Hinduism to manifest itself from Age to Age, and indeed this “I” was announced in Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, the Babi and Bahai Faiths.

In this world, there is distinction.
The “I” is not of this world, it belongs to the world of Unity.

I have no doubt you will dispute this
(Believe me or not, it is the Truth)

Except there is no connection between Hinduism and Judaism and (so logic follows)
neither Christianity. And again, pulling from a previous thread, Hinduism / Buddhism
have a worldview ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The
two sets of worldviews cannot be reconciled to each other.

 

[tonyfish58]

With all due respect, these women seem like faith-filled ladies, but does that qualify them to be given the title of a prophet?

The first one was a man You missed a great story

No they were not Prophets, they were the Disciples of the Bab (Gate).

There were 24 Disciples of the Bab - Interestingly, these could very well be the 24 elders that are mentioned the five times in the Book of Revelation as follows: 4:4 &10; 5:8; 11:16; and 19:4.

I do not understand why you asked re women prophets?

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Well, of course, It’s a point that has not yet been refuted.

No Bahai prophet has ever claimed to be the one who carries our sins and atones for them before God. That is huge, tony. HUGE. Sin is an egregious affront to the Numinous and Perfect Godhead. Without reparation, there is no justice…Curious that you mention justice, yet have no way to atone for your sins. His suffering was tragic, to be sure. But I owe nothing at all to him. He did not suffer for me, or for the entirety of humanity.

What do Baha’i believe about salvation? info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-9.html

A Summary of some aspects of this discussion Follow;

"According to Bahá’u’lláh, pride or self-centeredness is one of the greatest hindrances to spiritual progress. Pride represents an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance in the universe and leads to an attitude of superiority over others.

The prideful person feels in absolute control of his life and the circumstances surrounding it and he seeks power and dominance over others because such power helps him maintain this illusion of superiority. Pride is such a hindrance to spiritual growth because it impels the prideful individual on an endless quest to fulfill the expectations of his vainly-conceived and illusory self-concept.

In the Bahá’í notion of spiritual progress, whatever is conducive to spiritual progress is good, and whatever tends to hinder spiritual progress is bad. This doctrine reminds one of the Buddhist perspective. From the Bahá’í viewpoint, learning “right” from “wrong” means attaining a degree of self-knowledge that permits us to know when something is helpful to our spiritual growth and when it is not. And this knowledge can only be obtained through the teachings of the Manifestations (the prophets of the great religions).

Bahá’u’lláh repeatedly stressed that only revealed religion can save us from our imperfections. It is because God has sent his Manifestations to show us the path to spiritual development and to touch our hearts with the spirit of God’s love that we are able to realize our true potential and make the effort to be united with God. This is the “salvation” that religion brings.

Bahai’s do not think of salvation in terms of salvation from the stain of “original sin,” nor does it protect us from some external evil force or devil. Rather, it delivers people from the captivity to their own lower nature, a captivity that breeds private despair and threatens social destruction. Salvation means drawing nearer to God and progressing on the path to a deep and satisfying happiness".

Thus without Christ or the Prophets, we are not saved from our Sins. Yes Christ died for mine to which I thank Him for every time I am given the Bounty to remember and pray to God! My friend this is a bounty, not what we deserve!

Regards Tony

 

[RebeccaJ]

Uh, first, LilyM was bringing to mind certain cults like Heaven’s Gate and the Branch Davidian, tonyfish then asked if they were applicable or compar-
able to Christian Martyrs, so I then distinguished between the cults members and Christian Martyrs, the difference being that Heaven’s Gate and the
Branch Davidians were wackadoodles and the Christian Martyrs were not. “Uncharitable” was the word you used???

Now seeing that I was labeling HGs & BDs as crazies and you ask on what basis I label
these, as you seem to be calling them, “angels of light” & “supreme servants of God” …
I think you like gone! :ehh:

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thus without Christ or the Prophets, we are not saved from our Sins. Yes Christ died for mine to which I thank Him for every time I am given the Bounty to remember and pray to God! My friend this is a bounty, not what we deserve!

Regards Tony

Without Christ and the prophets? Would you say the new testament is mistaken in associating Jesus alone with the forgiveness of sins?

 

[tonyfish58]

Without Christ and the prophets? Would you say the new testament is mistaken in associating Jesus alone with the forgiveness of sins?

Dear IgnatianPhilo, All I now wish to share with you is the Love of God. Doctrinal Interpretation has been flogged to death, do you not think!

If we can share how God loves us Both, then lets proceed!

God Bless Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear IgnatianPhilo, All I now wish to share with you is the Love of God. Doctrinal Interpretation has been flogged to death, do you not think!

If we can share how God loves us Both, then lets proceed!

God Bless Regards Tony

So you think the new testament is mistaken in saying Jesus Christ alone is the cause of salvation? I take you believe that, because you do not want to answer and you grouped the prophets in with Jesus as if they were the equal cause of salvation. But since you don’t want to answer I can tell what your answer is.

 

[PRmerger]

The first one was a man You missed a great story

No they were not Prophets, they were the Disciples of the Bab (Gate

So the answer would be: no, the Bahai faith has no women prophets.

That seems pretty cut and dried.

I do not understand why you asked re women prophets?

Regards Tony

Just wondering. It’s a relatively modern religion. One that places high emphasis on equality (a good thing, to be sure!). One would think that in these modern times you would have at least 1 or 2 women prophets.

 

[PRmerger]

What do Baha’i believe about salvation?

No Bahai leader, no matter how holy, no matter how enlightened his words, has ever claimed to have taken on the sins of humanity upon his shoulders and atoned for them.

QED.

 

[Servant19]

Servant, you like to appeal to nature in your argument against homosexuality right? Well let me appeal to nature demonstrate that mankind will reject the next manifestation and I am granting the bahai version of history as true. Abraham came, the pagans rejected him. Moses came, the Pagans rejected him, Budha came, the jews when they found out about him rejected him. Jesus came, the Jews rejected him. Muhammad came, pagans, jews and Christians rejected him. Your prophet came, secularists, Christians, Jews and Muslims rejected him. When your future prophet appears I dare say here will be what happens; the Christians, jews, Muslims, bahais, secularists, Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses will reject him. Now we see a pattern don’t we, humans in the bahai tradition do not want to accept God and will reject him every time he comes, except a select few.

Hi Ignatian

This is based on an assumption on past behaviours dictating future behaviour.

I personally do not know what the future holds, but I do know that Baha’u’llah has promised a future world where this mould of disunity which has beset humanity from the very start will be eliminated to a large extent, or totally. The unification of the human race is an unalterable and unstoppable course that mankind is heading towards, whether anyone likes it it not, propelled by the almighty showering of grace which Baha’u’llah bestowed upon humanity.

Now it’s either going to be you’re the special ones who will accept the next great manifestation and put the rest of us all to shame, or when he (Perhaps a her) teaches things contrary to your tradition you will like everyone before you reject him.

Firstly, there are no special ones in the sight of God when the new Manifestation of God appears.

EVERYONE IS JUDGED!

You either recognize Him or you don’t, it’s your Judgement Day, the Day of Reckoning.

Secondly, the Baha’i Faith has abolished the clinging to Traditions. It is for this reason why the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is so vast and the guidance so weighty. Everything needed to unify mankind has been provided for. Traditions, per se, are not part of this agenda or equation.

Just something I would note and a problem bahai will have to deal with when I think a lot of people in a thousand years claim to be the true manifestation and bahais will be divided or remain bahai or leave, assuming your faith doesn’t die out before then.

There is no chance the Bahai Faith will die out anytime soon. The fingerprints of the Almighty are being left on the hearts and souls of millions of people every single day.

The message of Baha’u’llah leaves an indelible mark upon the meek, and humble in heart and as a result it will always attract rather than repel.

Now, where in the sexual act is there room for God?

The process of creation is of God. God is the Creator!
Marriage is the divinely ordained institution for the purpose of carrying out Gods creative enterprise.
The sexual act, carried out within marriage, purely for the sole purpose of bringing forth a child is ALL ABOUT GOD.

How is God not part of this process?

I imagine it is very hard, are you saying two people in creating a child who do not think about God, who do not glorify him in their minds constantly in all things are doing a thing equal to having God in mind constantly?

You’re saying a married couple cannot exist who have God constantly in mind, constantly glorifying him?
I’m saying I can name at least 10 families in my own community who are constantly praising God, through their services to Him, day in, day out, and their children are modelling this life of service.

Of course this is very hard to do, but through the renewed springtime of grace that Baha’u’llah has showered upon us all, this is now possible.

I do not believe that to be the case, we should never not think about God, we should always be drawing attention to him and this is quite simply higher.

I agree. But I am telling you sitting and praying all day, every day is not a higher service to God than putting your arm around a hundred people and bringing them under the Light of God, when their lives may easily have been sold to evil had it not been for your intervention.
As a family, this level of service to God is easily possible…

I might also make the argument that celibacy, in giving up a pleasure which is nearly irresistible and seeking to tame the body is more worthy than to give in to it.

It’s even more praiseworthy to be married and yet remain celibate at all times except for the purposes of reproduction. And that does not mean to have 50 children, but Bahai families live with a sense of global purpose and the population difficulties hitting mankind is something that must be considered.

 

[Servant19]

But you have shifted the attention of this conversation.

Really? How?

This is not whether or not it is higher to be celibate, its what during the period when the New testament and Christians were true, that celibacy was the highest calling.

Oh, really? I didn’t realise this…

You have not dealt with Paul, you have not dealt with Jesus. They lived out a life of celibacy, was Jesus incomplete for having not had a wife? Did his life lack fullness and virtue because of it? Or was he perfect and the ultimate example for all humanity?

For every Age, there are specific needs and specific responsibilities which God admonishes humanity to adhere to.
During Jesus’ time, it is evident that a personal relationship with God was the primary focus.

The focus was to remove the selfish desires of ego and as you say, to tame the body, so that the spirit may enjoy a closer and more intimate communion with God.

Please do not think that this is removed or abolished in the Bahai Faith. Not at all. It is practiced every day by sacrificing oneself for the advancement of others. Through marrying, yet avoiding the feeding of our animalistic desires of sexuality, greed, passion, materialism and attachments to worldly things, and self-gratifications.

The taming of the body is a given state that Baha’is are assumed to practice anyway, yet they are expected to go beyond this and become true servants.

The life of Abdu’l-Baha is the example to which Baha’is strive to practice in this Age.

.

 

[Servant19]

More perfect than Moses who disobeyed God and was punished for it? More perfect than Abraham who took his own destiny instead of listening to God about Sarah and slept with Hagar? This is the topic in question and I think I have defended celibacy and consequently the lives of Jesus, Paul (although he was married at one time he dedicated himself to the lord when he started his ministry), the saints and virgins of Old enough for you to deal with the problem instead of diverting it.

I don’t think I’ve diverted anything…

Was the period of the New testament, a time when celibacy was higher than marriage? Paul certaintly thought so, Jesus certaintly approved of those who became “eunuchs for the kingdom’s sake,”

Yes it certainly seems that way friend, for the reasons that I mentioned above.
For each Age there are specific requirements and responsibilities tailored for the advancement of the human condition.

As I said, celibacy is a state and human condition practiced within the marital institution. Just as Jesus said that adultery happens when you even think about cheating on your wife, marital partners are faithful to God in how they think about their relationship with Him in service.

and in the example of men like Saint Anthony we see a life which lives out the gospel. Lets use saint Anthony as an anchor for this discussion, did he live the proper Christian life? The Highest idea of the Christian life? What besides his sin, did he err in? Living in the desert and praying to God without distraction? Why is this a bad thing?

No one ever said it was a bad thing to be celibate, Ignatian. One can be celibate and be an incredibly potent servant of God. It is the shutting oneself away from society which goes against the admonitions of God for this Age.

The state of reverence expected by Baha’is during prayer is one whereby distractions are futile. Reverence is unhindered even if an army of ants was crawling up your arm during prayer. You’re trying to tell me that the desert holds less distractions? I could busy myself with plenty in a desert…

God wants us to be with Him at ALL TIMES AND UNDER ALL CONDITIONS.

That he didn’t take a wife but gave up everything he owned, slept on the ground in caves in the desert? Why is this less than say Muhammad, who took as many wives as he pleased

Depends on if Muhammad took on these wives for sexual reasons or merciful reasons so that women may be liberated from the savagery prevalent at that time. I have a certain feeling it wasn’t to have a good night in bed with them all!!!

and probably as many concubines as he pleased and set the same example for Muslim men (whatever your right hand posseses). No doubt you will deny the accounts of Muhammad having concubines from a preconceived notion of your modern morality.

Source please…

You refuse to let the past define its own morality, its own revelation, instead it must be in line with bahai, although I cannot understand the reasoning. God changes the social fabric right? Its only divine dogmas he doesn’t change right? Why can’t God experiment every generation?

As I say, each age has it’s own requirements and responsibilities…

You are fond of quoting your prophet, does your prophet ever say that homosexuality will always remain a sin?

Did Jesus or any of the Apostles ever say that homosexuality will always remain a sin?

Even then why can’t we treat those words like you treat the words of Jesus, Moses or Muhammad as respective of their age? Do you see the problems here?

This Age-related relativisation does apply to absolutely every single thing. Spiritual teachings are eternal. Social teachings are relative…

Now God gave us reproductive organs true, but is humanity to be defined in creating more humanity?

No…

Or in obedience to God?

Yes. God says that in this Day, we are to engage in the processes required for the unification of the human race, and has vouchsafed the grace for its realisation.

That that one cannot do both, you certaintly can, but what prohibits one from choosing a life in the cloister? How is that a life less than the life of the married?

In this Day, you draw grace when you are engaged in bringing people together, building strong bonds of unity, so that we may finally bring the wolf and the lamb together. We cannot do that in the cloister, and it does not draw it’s abundance of grace.

Now you speak of God’s will, you then have to deal with those who cannot reproduce.

If you cannot reproduce, it is Gods will and you remain celibate yet not live in the cloister. There are many ways by which the unification of the human race is realised.

Why should the mere existence of reproductive organs mean we must produce?

Why should the mere existence of eyes means we must open them to see? Walk with your eyes closed all day every day, Ignatian.

Why should the mere existence of legs mean you should walk? Lie down and stay lying down for your whole life, Ignatian.

Do you see what you are saying?
It’s bizarre.

Be a human being and have control over your desires!
It’s really very simple.

It’s not much of a taming of the body if there’s nothing to be tamed from. Why not kill off all women and be done with it? It will end all your desires and you can consider yourself the greatest assistant to Gods work the world has ever seen!!

.

 

[Servant19]

Since God gave us the mouth and out of the mouth come evil things, does that mean God intended evil?

God gave you a mouth and intended it to be used for the praise of Him, nothing else…

You’re making some very bizarre statements…

Reproduction can be done immorally and is done so today, who is to say it shouldn’t be done that way and God intended it that way?

God has clearly stated in the Bahai Writings what is the correct and moral use of the reproductive organs.

The mouth was also created to eat but why shouldn’t that mean we can eat everything we want.

Again, Bahaullah has provided immense guidance on how we should use our mouths in regards to eating and drinking and the words we speak.

Why is fasting from food good in bahai and fasting from sex one’s entire life a bad thing?

Fasting from food is a short term exercise to re-focus the human instinct towards God. Fasting is not a permanent thing one does for their whole life, it is a temporary measure used to refresh the spirit.

In a sense, the times one is not engaged in using the reproductive organs for having children one should be “fasting” from reproduction. Again the resisting of our desires and temptations for this purpose equates to an enhanced spiritual communion with our Lord.

.

 

[Servant19]

Cont:

That you say the body has an intended purpose other than to glorify God, which is its highest purpose is perplexing to me. What is higher? To serve God everyday, deny oneself the pleasures of the body, be it by fasting or other wise. To have a family? What is the highest existence? Now I hope you will address not only my arguments in favour of celibacy, but also my arguments that the New testament period was one where God said Celibacy was higher and greater than marriage. You have been quite persistent in ignoring this crucial point, which will lead us back to the discussion on whether or not the bahai God could accept homosexuality. This topic has been deviated enough.

Ignatian, recently I participated in some online lectures given by Professor Luke Timothy Johnson (a Benedictine monk) on the Apostle Paul.

Below is what I learnt from one of the lectures:

The problem with the Corinthians is that they think that they have everything already. Pau mocks them in Cor4:8 “Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us!”, and in chapter 15 he reminds them that you can’t be sitting on thrones because there ain’t no Kingdom yet. God’s triumph is not yet complete. The resurrection of Jesus is the first fruits of this triumph, and in order for God to triumph over sin (of which there was a lot in Corinth) and over death, they must undergo a MORAL transformation, so with regard to the end time, Paul says we will not all fall asleep before Jesus comes, but we ALL must be changed, and what he is talking about is a moral transformation in their behavior.

So lets look at some of the issues, because what was happening in the Corinthian community really happens in many intentional religious communities worldwide, throughout the ages. It was not clear to the Corinthians how the experience of the Holy Spirit should yield behavioral norms, and the struggle that they and Paul face on this point, reveals two significant things about nascent Christianity:

1. Early Christianity did have powerful experiences that drew people into fellowship. This is a point which is too seldom recognized and acknowledged by scholars. If in fact powerful things weren’t happening among them there would be no issue at all. Nowhere in Pauls letters do we find the suggestion that people considered Jesus just a moral teacher from the past. They share the conviction that He was a powerful risen Lord, that this Holy Spirit, this energy field had been given to them and that they had been caught up in it and that things were really happening!
2. There was no automatic set of moral guidelines yet, that should go with such experiences. If they were all Jewish, they would have had such a set of guidelines, found in Torah, but for Gentile Christians, or a mixed community, it was not fully clear.
   How does this radical experience of God translate, for example, into sexual behaviour?

Should we practice monogamy? (As in Judaism, everybody get married)

Should we be virgins?

Should we all mate with the cult leader?

Should we all have sex indiscriminately?

What is the moral corollary? If we are in the Resurrection life, and we are all living like angels, why should we not copulate like rabbits? Sex doesn’t matter, you see?

So the two basic positions followed in the community are what Paul identifies as the “strong” position, and the “weak” position. Today, we would call the strong position, liberals. These, in the Corinthian community, emphasized the stability and security of their identity. They saw the transformation, worked by the Spirit, as completely INTERNAL. It was just a matter of knowledge, and knowledge gives freedom. So their minds have been transformed, their true identity is internal. (A bit like our adolescence, it doesn’t matter if I have a messy room, the REAL me is neat)

Clearly, the “strong” position also emphasizes individualism, the liberty of the individual, and it tends to downplay the significance of the body and of society.

“If my true identity is inward, and nothing can touch it, because as long as my thoughts are clean, nothing else matters, then what I eat and how I engage in sexual activity is irrelevant”
So this is a kind of laissez-faire position, because they have been empowered, they are freed.

The “weak” position on the other hand, can legitimately be called conservative. They think that identity is VERY MUCH a matter of the body, and of society, and is therefore weak and threatened. They take seriously the implications of what you eat and who you associate with. And, like conservatives generally, they want rules, preferably uniform rules, that apply to everybody in matters of food and drink, and sexuality, and the order of worship (all things should be done decently and in good order, if we are to be together to worship God!)

Now, Paul’s response to these kinds of positions, is remarkable for its complexity and subtlety, as he seeks to gain a way for BOTH sides to gain a higher plane of moral perception. He really appeals to their imagination, to begin to think NOT in terms of who’s right, but, HOW DO WE LIVE TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY.

.

 

[Servant19]

There are four points that need to be made about Paul’s approach to them. In some respects, he agrees with the “strong” (remarkably). Paul agrees that their identity is strong and firm, but he disagrees about the basis of that strength. It’s not because their identity is mental, but it’s because GOD has gifted them and God is faithful. So Paul is for freedom as much as possible, because that is what God has called him into.

In other respects he agrees with the “weak”, because identity is not necessarily a matter of internalism, but it is a “corporate” matter, involving your body, and the community’s body. So, their motto was “food for the belly and the belly for food”. Paul said that sex is not like eating peanuts, sex is not just a physical interaction, it is also a spiritual interaction. It has spiritual implications. So he calls them to this HIGHER awareness of a corporate reality.

Secondly, he thinks that BOTH sides are wrong, by seeking to be RIGHT, at the expense of righteousness, and this is where he comes down so strongly on them for going to pagan courts to try to solve their problems.

Paul much prefers ambiguity of life together than a community separated into mutually opposing and “theoretically correct” factions.

Thirdly, he calls them to live according to this pattern of “self-emptying” that is found in the death of Jesus. Paul’s discourse in ch.1 verse 18, where he talks about how Gods power has come through the message of the Cross. Gods foolishness is stronger than human wisdom, Gods weakness is stronger than human strength…
…and the end of that discourse Paul says: “we have the Spirit, not of this world, but that has come from God”. So the way God has worked is the Spirit that is supposed to work in us. And then he says in ch.2 verse 16, “we have the mind of Christ”…“noos Cristu” (in Greek)

The term “noos” in ancient moral philosophy meant what we would today call a “mindset”. We have the disposition, we have the attitudes, we have the way of viewing reality that belongs to Jesus. This is EXTREMELY important for Paul. How Jesus is important for him, IS NOT IN THE INCIDENTALS OF HIS HISTORICAL PAST, but in the form of His consciousness, in the pattern of His existence. The MIND of Christ (for Paul) is exemplified in a life in which one is willing to give up his own wisdom, and to look foolish, so that others can be wiser. One in which one can give up a little of their own strength, so that those who are weak can become stronger.

So fourthly, the pattern by which all members of the community can grow stronger is by seeking to build up the whole community rather than themselves. Paul uses this amazing image of the body of the Messiah in ch.12 verse 12-31, which he sees the community as a living, inter-related organism, which the health and life of each part of the organism depends upon the health and life of the WHOLE organism, you see?

And we see here now a principle he will develop much more in 2 Corinthians, that of reconciliation and reciprocity, which was so counter-cultural back then, and today. The strong don’t become stronger by eliminating the weak, EVERYBODY becomes stronger by making the whole community stronger.

Now, if I may ask you to ponder the contents of this lecture and tell me your thoughts on how it relates to our dialogue in this thread

.