False signs and wonders

[Tis_Bearself]

Wasn’t Garabandal condemned? The children were running uphill backwards or something?

Garabandal has not been condemned. It’s just been categorized as “nothing supernatural happened”. That means Catholics can and do go there and pray, etc. One of the seers also lives in USA now and leads prayer groups.
If it were condemned, then Catholics would be forbidden to go on pilgrimage there and told to avoid the seers.

Miraclehunter.com is a good website for checking the approval status of particular apparitions.

 

[graciew]

It is an open folder.
“ Constat de non supernaturalitate” would be what you are saying, confirms not supernatural origin.
In the case of Garabandal it is a “ non constat de supernaturalitate”. A non constat doesn’t affirm nor dismiss the supernatural.
That is my understanding about Garabandal, Tis.
Merry Christmas.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, that’s correct what you say. The latest statement seems to be the 1993 statement of the Bishop of Santander which was translated into English by EWTN, and EWTN added a note stating:

• EWTN: It should be noted that this appears to correspond to the 3rd of the categories used by the Church since new norms were promulgated in 1978 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

1. constat de supernaturalitate (it is established supernatural)
2. constat de non supernaturalitate (it is established not supernatural)
3. non constat de supernaturalitate (it is not established supernatural)

It’s a number 3 which means that they just left the investigation open. If it were closed as in 2 then the bishop probably wouldn’t be allowing the pilgrimages there as he now does, although the Church doesn’t give any official approval to those.

 

[BigRon]

Interesting.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

I just learnt about Garabandal and it totally blew my mind, gave me goosebumps. There a thousands of claimed apparitions of Mary but only 17 of them have been approved by the Catholic church, Garabanald is not one of them. The church still has an open investigation on it.

There is a little known apparition that occurred in Columbia in the 18th century known as “Our Lady of Las Lajas” It has similarities to Our Lady of Guadalupe in a brilliantly coloured image of the virgin with infant Jesus.

The image was found on a rock were the church was built around. The most astonishing thing about this image is that no ink or paint was found, it’s just the colous of the rock itself. Furthermore these colours penetrate deep into the rock itself. I recommend having a look if your interested in that kind of thing.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There a thousands of claimed apparitions of Mary but only 17 of them have been approved by the Catholic church,

Actually that’s not quite correct.

Prior to the Church instituting processes for official approvals of Marian apparitions, which didn’t happen until the start of the 1700s, there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of Marian apparitions that are considered “traditionally approved”. The apparition was generally evaluated by the local parish or community, and if it was believed to be genuine, usually a church or a shrine would be built on the site and people would go there to pray. The one you mention, Our Lady of Las Lajas, is in this category of “traditionally approved” apparitions. There have also been some cases after the 1700s of apparitions where an investigation could not be conducted for some reason (such as the apparition was in China or Vietnam during times not friendly to the Church) but the Church has still given them full approval.

As I said, there are thousands of traditionally approved Marian apparitions, but the Miracle Hunter website has highlighted 19 of those as having special significance and the full approval of the Church.

Now turning to the apparitions that occurred after 1700 and which were subject to the investigation/ approval process, the local bishop is usually the one who decides whether to approve an apparition or not. In rare cases and for the most significant apparitions, the Vatican will also recognize an apparition that the local Bishop has already approved. Bishops can also give an apparition “approval for faith expression” which means that there is no judgment made about the apparition itself or its messages, but Catholics are permitted to practice devotions associated with the apparition, such as saying particular prayers, wearing a medal, etc.

The number of approved apparitions in each category, with no overlap between categories, is as follows:

Vatican recognized: 16

Local bishop approved: 10

Approved for faith expression: 24

Garabandal is not in any of the above categories. It remains an open file with no approval of any sort.

 

[TK421]

I’ve heard of Garabandal but I thought it was already approved by the local bishop.

 

[thistle]

I’ve heard of Garabandal but I thought it was already approved by the local bishop.

No it is not approved by the local bishop.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

Actually that’s not quite correct.

I don’t remember where I got 17 from. I stand corrected

There have also been some cases after the 1700s of apparitions where an investigation could not be conducted for some reason (such as the apparition was in China or Vietnam during times not friendly to the Church) but the Church has still given them full approval.

The church approved these apparitions in Asia which they were unable to investigate. That sounds odd. Can u elaborate please.

The number of approved apparitions in each category, with no overlap between categories, is as follows:

Vatican recognized: 16

Local bishop approved: 10

Approved for faith expression: 24

Thanks for the informative post. Can you link me to a list of those 50 please? I’d like to learn more about them.
Also seeing you are well informed in Marian apparitions what are some of the most amazing ones in your opinion? (don’t include the big ones that everyone knows)

 

[thistle]

Thanks for the informative post. Can you link me to a list of those 50 please? I’d like to learn more about them.

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/vatican.html

 

[TK421]

I don’t understand why groups and publishers feel the need to be sneaky and dishonest. I have a pamphlet from a few years back talking about how Garabandal is a locally approved apparition. Don’t they understand that they are damaging the Church’s reputation or do they simply not care?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t understand why religious groups feel the need to be sneaky and dishonest. I have a pamphlet from a few years back talking about how Garabandal is a locally approved apparition.

Some religious groups are genuinely confused - it may be that the were given wrong information or read wrong information somewhere. Other groups are having episodes of “wishful thinking”.
And others are a little dishonest as you say.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The church approved these apparitions in Asia which they were unable to investigate. That sounds odd. Can u elaborate please.

Miracle Hunter website:

Some apparitions have occurred during the era of investigation but never received the full investigation of the Church such as those in La Vang, Vietnam in 1798 but which have the Vatican’s full endorsement nonetheless.

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/traditional.html

You can read about Our Lady of La Vang and Our Lady of Dong Lu on the linked page, just scroll down.
Often there are statues or pictures of Our Lady of La Vang in US churches frequented by Vietnamese Catholics.

As for the approved apparitions, you can see the others by clicking on the links on the left of the Miracle Hunter site for “Vatican Approved”, “Bishop Approved” and “Approved for Faith Expression”.

As for which of them are most “amazing”, it’s always amazing when Mary favors us with her presence, so it’s hard to play favorites in that way. I was taught since childhood to be devoted to Our Lady of Fatima, but you said “don’t include the big ones”.

I’m rather fond of the two apparitions that occurred in USA given that I am a US citizen. Our Lady of Good Help in Champion (Robinsonville), Wisconsin (Bishop Approved) and Our Lady of America which occurred in various states including Indiana and Ohio, as the visionary was a sister who was transferred to different locations by her order (Approved for Faith Expression).

 

[Pai_Nosso]

TY. Do you ever worry that some of these apparitions are false? I do and it scares me.
Are miracles or prophecies evidence of her? Satan is capable of such things as well.

 

[thistle]

TY. Do you ever worry that some of these apparitions are false? I do and it scares me.
Are miracles or prophecies evidence of her? Satan is capable of such things as well.

First, even approved apparitions/revelations are not required to be believed by Catholics. We are free to believe them or not. Of course, those that have been approved we should not dismiss lightly.

Many apparitions are false. However, we can be sure that those approved by the Church are worthy of belief even though we don’t have to believe them.

 

[Knight_of_JaM]

He was a Seventh Day Adventist before he created the Branch Davidians.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

TY. Do you ever worry that some of these apparitions are false?

No, I don’t. Especially in the modern era, bishops and the Church don’t give out approvals like candy canes.

I do and it scares me.

Mother Mary in her approved apparitions doesn’t say or do anything scary. Rather, the opposite.
Over and over again Mary reassures people she’s there for them, she also frequently asks us to repent, pray for sinners, pray for reparation, say the Rosary, etc. which are all things we’re supposed to be doing anyway.
If you are frightened by Marian apparitions perhaps you need to take a step back from reading about them and simply focus on your own relationship with Jesus and Mary.

You also need to be careful when you read about approved apparitions that what you read is what Mary actually said and not some interpretation that a third party put on it later.

Are miracles or prophecies evidence of her? Satan is capable of such things as well.

Satan doesn’t go around encouraging people to pray the Rosary, go to Mass, receive Holy Communion, go to confession, repent of one’s sins, pray for sinners, pray for the Pope, etc. What would be the point of Satan encouraging these activities?

Now if an alleged Marian apparition was telling people to do something else, like reject the Pope or reject Vatican II or give a big donation to the seer, then that’s the kind of apparition that gets condemned by the Church, so we just don’t bother with it.

 

[Mac]

Many are false, some are authentic , that’s why we are supposed to not follow them unless the Church approves it as authentic .

 

[Pai_Nosso]

No, I don’t. Especially in the modern era, bishops and the Church don’t give out approvals like candy canes.

I was referring more to the ones that weren’t approved. I should of specified that.

I wouldn’t worry about it. Whether an alleged apparition is true or false, you don’t have to decide either way. Perhaps the most rational thing to do is to ignore.

Mother Mary in her approved apparitions doesn’t say or do anything scary.

I worry for the people I luv the most, who have a devotion to a certain apparition. I pray for their salvation if it’s false and I pray also for the Lords forgiveness if my doubts are wrong. So Im afraid of them possibly going to hell or for me possibly being wrong about my doubts.

Satan doesn’t go around encouraging people to pray the Rosary, go to Mass, receive Holy Communion, go to confession, repent of one’s sins, pray for sinners, pray for the Pope, etc. What would be the point of Satan encouraging these activities?

That’s a fair point as the messages don’t appear to be bad.
The skeptical part of me questions why she tells us that she is the only way to salvation when the bible says that Jesus is the only way. And why she is the only saint that has ever told us to pray to them instead of God, ten times more…
The point of Satan doing this would be many; to infiltrate the church, to deceive mankind, to turn people’s focus away from Jesus, to win the prayers of many people.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I was referring more to the ones that weren’t approved. I should of specified that.

There is no need to bother with unapproved Marian apparitions when there are literally dozens of apparitions with some level of approval that you can follow instead. Simply do not deal with completely unapproved apparitions. Don’t read them, don’t follow them, don’t pay attention to them.

I worry for the people I luv the most, who have a devotion to a certain apparition. I pray for their salvation if it’s false and I pray also for the Lords forgiveness if my doubts are wrong. So Im afraid of them possibly going to hell or for me possibly being wrong about my doubts.

First of all, you can’t commit sin or be punished for doubting an apparition, even an approved apparition. We are not even required to believe in approved apparitions - you could easily doubt Fatima for example and that wouldn’t be a sin, there is no requirement to believe that Mary appeared at Fatima. Obviously if you’re not required to believe in approved apparitions, then you’re certainly not required to believe in unapproved apparitions.

Second, regarding your loved ones, just leave them to their business and pray for them. Once you’ve advised them that the apparition is not approved and kept yourself out of it then you’ve done your duty. If the apparition is causing them to do things against Church teaching, like reject the Pope, or things that are harmful to themselves, like give all their money to some cult leader, then you can speak out against that and maybe ask your priest for guidance, but if it’s just a case of them being too much into Medjugorje or Garabandal or whatever it’s not that big of a deal IMHO as long as they continue to practice their faith in a normal way. We all know people who get a little too “into” apparitions and mysticism.

That’s a fair point as the messages don’t appear to be bad.

Not much to worry about then.

The skeptical part of me questions why she tells us that she is the only way to salvation when the bible says that Jesus is the only way. And why she is the only saint that has ever told us to pray to them instead of God, ten times more…

Doesn’t sound like something Mary would say. Use common sense and avoid it.

The point of Satan doing this would be many; to infiltrate the church, to deceive mankind, to turn people’s focus away from Jesus, to win the prayers of many people.

I don’t think people praying for Mary’s intercession are somehow having their prayers misdirected to Satan. Nor do I think they’re somehow losing love for Jesus.
I would really just let the bishops worry about this stuff, and only be concerned if like I said your relatives seem to be drifting from the Church or behaving in ways harmful to their health.