Fantasy Magic =/= Real Magic(k)

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I hope I am following you…

Why fantasy magic is okay:
Fantasy magic is okay only when it is understood in the context of being fantasy. It should not be inciting others to manipulate others or their environment.

Note that in most literature, the nature of its use is within the context of either “good” or “evil.” The dualist nature of such power is only representative of God when there is more light than dark, simply because Christians do not believe that evil is as powerful as good.

Why real-life ‘magic’ is not oaky:
It seeks to subjugate another’s will. (Think of why the cruciatis curse is illegal in the HP series!) Add to that a God-rules-over-all demention, and magic in our reality attempts to manipulate and distort the balance of nature which should be left to God’s care alone. Those who try to control others and circumstances by super-natural means are playing God and therefore are challenging the Almighty, inviting demons, leading others astray, and ultimately fall in love with their own ‘power,’ to the damnation of their souls.
Yeah well, that’s one way of putting it. However, just to make it easier to understand, I am simply criticizing people who condemn fantasy stories that are set in a world like ours (as they did in Morals of Magic) when they don’t realize that magic isn’t demonic and is morally neutral in that particular fictional universe. That doesn’t change what real magic is like in the real world though.
 
The former is in the context of selfish motives.

The latter is pure disobedience to God.

We must submit to God in all things, or else perish. Adam and Eve learned this the hard way.
Doing something for the sake of others is never selfish. Ever wonder why the word “self” is even in the word?

And no, I cannot see how you equate obtaining power through your own means as disobedience. When you say you leave it up to God, you don’t need to do anything. God just gives it to you. However, we all know that God’s not some genie you can just make a wish to so you can be President or become able to survive in a dangerous neighborhood.

Like I said, you need to choose your words more wisely.
If Harry Potter is set in our world, than it is indeed questionable, for the children would be engaging in the occult - even if it is unlike the occult in real life, it would still be the occult.
Got any proof or logic to back that up? The difference between magic in this world and magic in any fictional fantasy world is basically what gives the genre the right to be free from absurd fundamentalist criticisms.
 
If Harry Potter is set in our world, than it is indeed questionable, for the children would be engaging in the occult - even if it is unlike the occult in real life, it would still be the occult.
Ahhh, there’s the rub…God doesn’t exist in the world of Harry Potter, either in Hogwarts or in Little Whinging. So, if we truly lived in a world of HP, we could indulge in witchcraft without any ill effects to our consciences.

But in that we are human, not living in a book, in this world where Christ came to save our souls and establish His Church, we should have no need to try to manipulate our curcumstances and put our faith in God instead.
 
Ahhh, there’s the rub…God doesn’t exist in the world of Harry Potter, either in Hogwarts or in Little Whinging. So, if we truly lived in a world of HP, we could indulge in witchcraft without any ill effects to our consciences.
I respectfully disagree. We can’t say God doesn’t exist in their world just because magic is allowed. For all we know their world could just be governed by different unseen laws. You know this is another problem I see in people who like to criticize fantasy. They impose the standards of our world to that of fictional worlds. Why should we do that when we can’t even impose the standard of fictional worlds to our worlds? (E.g. we can’t fly just because Superman can.)
 
First, I meant to spell “demention” as “dimension.” I implied that my brain wasn’t fully in gear today, and then I had to prove it .
…I am simply criticizing people who condemn fantasy stories that are set in a world like ours (as they did in Morals of Magic
) when they don’t realize that magic isn’t demonic and is morally neutral in that particular fictional universe.

To be morally neutral without this reality as our only point of reference, witchcraft can only exist in a fantasy world without God as we know Him.

I wholeheartedly agree that people “don’t realize that magic isn’t demonic and is morally neutral in [a] particular fictional universe.” There are those who can see fantasy for what it is – that SF/F it is not a reflection of true reality as we know it. In SF/F, the laws of nature such as gravity can be changed. Morals are based on a totally different civilization which may or may not have a concept of God. It’s left up to a writer’s imagination.

However, be gentle when “criticizing people who condemn fantasy stories.” You and I have to remember that this may be a “bad” genre to some people, with good reason. Fantasy writing may be seen as glorifying a world without God in it, encouraging others to live Godless-ly, or inspiring others to seek out notions such as a “higher power” and not God.

These notions may be detrimental to those who do not have a mature spirituality, or those who do not have a fundamental understanding of what fantasy is, or those who are simply concerned for the spiritual well being of others.

These dangers, for each person, are subjective.
That doesn’t change what real magic is like in the real world though.
Magic in the real world may be reflected in literature, though I don’t see anything accurately depicted in the Harry Potter series. A lot of writing on the topic of ‘real witchcraft’ is hokey, but people fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

Real witchcraft is inherently different that what we read in literature, and diverges greatly from fantasy literature. However, there is a danger that a) people will think it’s real b) people will try to do it or c) they may dig deeper to find out how to become involved in real magic.

I am not sure how much of these fears is unfounded.
I respectfully disagree. We can’t say God doesn’t exist in their world just because magic is allowed. For all we know their world could just be governed by different unseen laws.
To me, when reading critically, if it’s not implied or even alluded to, then it’s usually not there, and our experiences in this reality may or may not be a point of reference. Now, don’t go taking me too literally…simply because a book doesn’t have a loo, doesn’t mean that in the writer’s fictional world, no one has to use a loo! But on the bigger matter of Faith in Realms of Fantasy (oooh, what an essay title that would be), it’s usually a very strong thread, and not too often ignored. Likewise, when tsetting up an alternate universe with a ruling body, the author usually gives us a hint of the type of government. Mmmm…think of Serenity.
You know this is another problem I see in people who like to criticize fantasy. They impose the standards of our world to that of fictional worlds. Why should we do that when we can’t even impose the standard of fictional worlds to our worlds?
I am not sure which or how much of any fictional world I would like to impose on real life.
Utopia = Dystopia.
 
Even though a critic may impose standards of our world to that of fictional worlds, that’s usually a knee-jerk reaction to do with hype, not content. They’re not usually evaluating plot, imagery, technical writing, style or tone, etc., just a limited understanding of topic with their own point of reference. So go easy on ‘em.

Remember, the critics you’re talking about are writing from a myopic view on a pre-judged topic. (The critic of your example doesn’t represent all critics, either.) The critics you refer also have a somewhat noble agenda, mentioned in a, b, and c above. All they want to do is protect the impressionable and obsessive.

And remember, to a real critic, what makes literature great? A reader doesn’t have to like a character or a theme in order to think a book was “good.” The author’s writing skills may or may not even come in to play. Literature of any genre doesn’t have to agree with your belief system. Not even visceral reactions can make a book poor reading. The success of any writing is in the ability to make people think critically. If it grounds one more firmly in a chosen camp of argument because it made a person re-evaluate where he or she stands, then it was good, as it served a good purpose. If it makes a person look critically at his own values, then it was a successful book. If one can read something and clearly articulate why they can support the thesis, then it was good.

(I said above that, “Literature of any genre doesn’t have to agree with your belief system.” Many people would chew me up and spit me out for that, saying that if it isn’t wholesome to their standards, then it’s worthless, but I obviously disagree.)

Now, regarding trying to impose the standard of fictional worlds to our world, many folks already do that to a degree: think Trekkies. Or Furries. Or anyone who wears a Neo Matrix coat on a 95-degree day. They not only dress that way, but act with the values system as much as they can adapt into real life. Although these ethics may be compatible with cultural norms, these beliefs systems, taken to an extreme, are still “just left of socially acceptable.”

Or think of anyone living with a set of ethics taken from fantasy literature. Some people can rationalize/reconcile these fantastic values with Christianity, yet others cannot, and therefore won’t try. There’s no right or wrong in either case.
 
However, be gentle when “criticizing people who condemn fantasy stories.” You and I have to remember that this may be a “bad” genre to some people, with good reason. Fantasy writing may be seen as glorifying a world without God in it, encouraging others to live Godless-ly, or inspiring others to seek out notions such as a “higher power” and not God.
Not necessarily. I mean which looks more God-less to you? A regular world where magic is simply another commodity like cars or electricity or a world where pedophiles can rape and impregnate underage girls and get away with it? I mean when you think about it, using magic just to do something simple like making your bed fix itself sounds perfectly fine when you compare it to someone comitting homicide with a gun.
These notions may be detrimental to those who do not have a mature spirituality, or those who do not have a fundamental understanding of what fantasy is, or those who are simply concerned for the spiritual well being of others.
I suppose (and I’ve heard this advice many times before) that education on this subject has always been the best solution. Tell people the differences between fantasy and reality. Tell them how awful (or in my opinion, downright lame) real witchcraft and sorcery is.
Real witchcraft is inherently different that what we read in literature, and diverges greatly from fantasy literature. However, there is a danger that a) people will think it’s real b) people will try to do it or c) they may dig deeper to find out how to become involved in real magic.

I am not sure how much of these fears is unfounded.
Trust me, when I looked up stuff such as Wicca and other supposed beliefs that taught “magic”, I was inclined to just toss the book and go back to playing my video games. I prefer using magic to blast monsters to smithereens than make myself look silly by dancing in a circle thank you very much. :rolleyes:
To me, when reading critically, if it’s not implied or even alluded to, then it’s usually not there, and our experiences in this reality may or may not be a point of reference. Now, don’t go taking me too literally…simply because a book doesn’t have a loo, doesn’t mean that in the writer’s fictional world, no one has to use a loo! But on the bigger matter of Faith in Realms of Fantasy (oooh, what an essay title that would be), it’s usually a very strong thread, and not too often ignored. Likewise, when tsetting up an alternate universe with a ruling body, the author usually gives us a hint of the type of government. Mmmm…think of Serenity.
Well that depends on how you would still read it. I mean have you ever wondered why the belief of souls is still present (as evidenced by the presence of ghosts and the concept of the Horcrux)? Ever wondered why horrible acts such as murder result in the tearing of the soul? I for one believe that there’s got to be some omnipotent being who made these rules. Let’s not forget that there was little to no mention of Christianity at all as far as from what I’ve read (although I’m still 75% done with the last book). Can we say Christianity didn’t exist even though the critics are claiming that Harry Potter is set in a world similar to ours?
 
Even though a critic may impose standards of our world to that of fictional worlds, that’s usually a knee-jerk reaction to do with hype, not content. They’re not usually evaluating plot, imagery, technical writing, style or tone, etc., just a limited understanding of topic with their own point of reference. So go easy on ‘em.

Remember, the critics you’re talking about are writing from a myopic view on a pre-judged topic. (The critic of your example doesn’t represent all critics, either.) The critics you refer also have a somewhat noble agenda, mentioned in a, b, and c above. All they want to do is protect the impressionable and obsessive.
Yes I know not all critics are like that which is why I’m specifying only the kind I’m talking about. I understand their intentions are good but they really have to be careful because one wrong move could cause everything to do more harm than good. That is why, the same with readers/players/viewers, these critics should educate themselves more before firing away. Ignorant alarmism on such topics can cause moral panics you know.
Now, regarding trying to impose the standard of fictional worlds to our world, many folks already do that to a degree: think Trekkies. Or Furries. Or anyone who wears a Neo Matrix coat on a 95-degree day. They not only dress that way, but act with the values system as much as they can adapt into real life. Although these ethics may be compatible with cultural norms, these beliefs systems, taken to an extreme, are still “just left of socially acceptable.”

Or think of anyone living with a set of ethics taken from fantasy literature. Some people can rationalize/reconcile these fantastic values with Christianity, yet others cannot, and therefore won’t try. There’s no right or wrong in either case.

That’s true but let’s face it, not all things are compatible. I mean let’s take the reverse. If a fantasy character acts in a way that is considered noble and virtuous by Christian standards does that put Christianity in that character’s universe? I mean it’s okay to subject fantasy to some real world’s standards but there are some who tend to do that to the extreme.
 
I’m still not so sure if the desire for power in of itself is completely evil. Sure it can go out of control but there have always been measures for that. I think this has more to do with the kind of power being desired. If I abandoned the desire to wield magic and replaced it with something more realistic like learning a lethal martial art or mastering a gun, would I still be acting within the way God designed me? I mean I don’t need to go visit questionable psychics or anything, I’d just train my body in a class or go to the shooting range to improve my aim. (Speaking of which, wouldn’t that make the desire to improve oneself the same as seeking power? I mean it does glorify the self in a way. 🤷)
There is a difference between legitimate self-love and self-glorification. Self-love involves treating the self well, and with all proper respect. Self-glorification, which is a form of idolatry, is about elevating the self in the eyes of oneself or others. Self-glorification can also be about assuming power over others not for the purpose of doing them good but for the purpose of elevating the self. I think that the latter is more what you’re interested in- else you would find all your joy in a charity rather than in something that directly makes you so supreme and does little to help others.

I’ve desired the same things you have, in the past, to have some fantastic experiences and to elevate myself, to be great in the eyes of God and men. If your – or my – desires were about helping others, there are LOADS of ways to do that in the real world apart from this. Eventually, I had to recognize that God’s way is a way of humility, and I had to put aside my desires to be the conduit for miracles. These desires are not conducive to deepening one’s relationship with God.

Desiring skill in all kinds of professions can be wrong for this reason, though in the case of magic it’s particularly wrong because that’s something God has forbidden, and there are loads of powers out there that claim to be natural, but which actually are demonic deceptions that break God’s command. This means this kind of desire, which is in itself wrong, can lead souls through deception to things that are deadly.

Even if you disagree with the above distinctions between legitimate self-love and self-glorification, though, here’s something very important to take into consideration and seek to apply:

The devil disguises his magic as natural magic, all over the place. And God never gave people magic, but He does give His most faithful and humble people real supernatural power according to His will. He is by far the best person to make those kinds of decisions. I’m so glad He doesn’t just give power to everyone- it can so easily go to one’s head. I had a miracle performed through me several years ago and I used the experience for self-promotion in my own eyes and those of others. God did not repeat the experience for me. I’m just so glad it’s Him not us that make those decisions! He is by far the best one for the job, and through the years He has humbled me through that one miracle by showing me the pride that exists in me.

Desiring and seeking natural magic that God did not give you is so very dangerous. Far better to do what the Book of Psalms says, “wait on the Lord.”
 
I think that the latter is more what you’re interested in- else you would find all your joy in a charity rather than in something that directly makes you so supreme and does little to help others.
Some people can only be good at things that are not considered charitable you know. Not everyone desires to run a charity or work in places you’d expect saints to devote themselves to (hospitals, orphanages, schools). That’s just how they are (that’s just how I am in fact). Some of us just want to be good at the things we want to do be it playing video games, martial arts, our aim, cooking, drawing, writing etc. Excessive pride is bad but I don’t see anything wrong if you like people appreciating your hard work.
Desiring and seeking natural magic that God did not give you is so very dangerous. Far better to do what the Book of Psalms says, “wait on the Lord.”
Ah there’s the catch right there eh? Suppose God does decide to give it, what then? Suppose He suddenly decides the world would become magical in a more literal sense. What then?

After all, His ways aren’t our ways. We can never tell what He is thinking… 🤷
 
Some people can only be good at things that are not considered charitable you know. Not everyone desires to run a charity or work in places you’d expect saints to devote themselves to (hospitals, orphanages, schools). That’s just how they are (that’s just how I am in fact). Some of us just want to be good at the things we want to do be it playing video games, martial arts, our aim, cooking, drawing, writing etc. Excessive pride is bad but I don’t see anything wrong if you like people appreciating your hard work.

Ah there’s the catch right there eh? Suppose God does decide to give it, what then? Suppose He suddenly decides the world would become magical in a more literal sense. What then?

After all, His ways aren’t our ways. We can never tell what He is thinking… 🤷
Magic is from the demon. I don’t understand how you can even think God would allow a magical world.
 
Magic is from the demon. I don’t understand how you can even think God would allow a magical world.
That’s because you are only limiting yourself to a certain variation of magic the Church has specified (I call it, the occult type). In the worlds of fiction however, people now have many variations.
 
That’s because you are only limiting yourself to a certain variation of magic the Church has specified (I call it, the occult type). In the worlds of fiction however, people now have many variations.
Heretic.
 
You’re not the Magisterium. Kindly tell me what’s so heretical in declaring that fantasy fiction has many variations of magic?

P.S.

You ain’t God either so I’d rather you assume the things God would or wouldn’t do with less frequency.
 
Well, I have a past with the Occult and so I tend to avoid even fantasy magick. I used a k at the end to denote that I am talking about the Occultic type of magick. If I did not use the k at the end, I would be talking about a magician’s sort of magic.
 
You’re not Magisterium. Kindly tell me what’s so heretical in declaring that fantasy fiction has many variations of magic?
It is not heretical to discuss fictional magic, but it is heretical to say God could create a magical world. Magic is from the devil, so God could not create a magical world.

I’m sticking with the Magisterium, because the Magisterium is infalliable.
 
It is not heretical to discuss fictional magic, but it is heretical to say God could create a magical world. Magic is from the devil, so God could not create a magical world.
That’s because you are saying such with the presupposition of the Church’s definition of “magic” in mind. My presupposition of what magic is broader and not as strictly defined.
 
Well, I have a past with the Occult and so I tend to avoid even fantasy magick. I used a k at the end to denote that I am talking about the Occultic type of magick. If I did not use the k at the end, I would be talking about a magician’s sort of magic.
So? Magic in fantasy is the same as the magician’s sort of magic as well. One way or another they’re both just illusions.
 
That’s because you are saying such with the presupposition of the Church’s definition of “magic” in mind. My presupposition of what magic is broader and not as strictly defined.
Actually, I’m using the infallible teaching of the Church. You are using opinion.
 
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