Fantasy/Reality Books

[Meggie]

In the Harry Potter debate people often site the use of magic as wrong and reasons why Christians should stay away. Some people recognize the link of this type of magic between LOTR and Narnia. the “good” magic, or even the Chronicals of the Wizard of OZ (NOT the movie)

However, how are we morally supposed to view things that just use other words for magic and witches, such as Star Wars, or even Louis Lowery’s “Giver” series or Bridge to Teribitthia or Scott Westerfied’s “Midnighters” or “Uglies” series? Is the use of other words, other explanations or other means for the not-necessarly evil or good driven supernatural ok?

 

[DanteAlighieri]

In the Harry Potter debate people often site the use of magic as wrong and reasons why Christians should stay away. Some people recognize the link of this type of magic between LOTR and Narnia. the “good” magic, or even the Chronicals of the Wizard of OZ (NOT the movie)

However, how are we morally supposed to view things that just use other words for magic and witches, such as Star Wars, or even Louis Lowery’s “Giver” series or Bridge to Teribitthia or Scott Westerfied’s “Midnighters” or “Uglies” series? Is the use of other words, other explanations or other means for the not-necessarly evil or good driven supernatural ok?

A great topic, about which I have very strong feelings.

In a piece of fiction, the writer creates a world, so to speak, with its own rules and realities. In Harry Potter’s world, for example, certain people are born with powers that are classified as “magic”. This is not the same thing as people in the real world dabbling in the occult, and it certainly shouldn’t be seen as an endorsement thereof.

What one must determine is whether the story is using “magic” as a literary device – that is, a tool to help move the plot along or establish an important theme. This is absolutely the case in Harry Potter, as it is in The Lord of the Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia. What’s more, supernatural abilities are part of the fabric of the story’s setting, and therefore are the background on which the story unfolds.

In none of these examples does the author suggest, intimate, imply, or hint that real people ought to dabble in the occult – which, in the real world, would require appealing to dangerous spirits.

In fact, in all three of the examples I gave, there are significant characters whose lust for power over others transforms them into ludicrous figures who are in over their heads and cause damage they are unable to fix (Uncle Andrew in Narnia), cruel and selfish slaves of The Enemy (Saruman in LOTR), and disfigured parodies of humanity who have no comprehension of love (Voldemort in Harry Potter). I think that’s perfectly acceptable – in fact, beneficial – subject matter for Christian readers.

The same can be said for other works, in which the word “magic” is not used. In Star Wars, for example, the Force is a reality of the universe, and some people are biologically predisposed to be able to manipulate it. The Jedi are those who seek to establish “balance”, while the Sith seek to bend the force to their own wishes and use it to dominate others. The result is a loss of humanity, as evidenced by Darth Vader (and even Luke’s need for a prosthetic hand after he lost control of his hate.

SPOILER WARNING!!!

In The Giver, we again see a world in which certain people are born with the supernatural ability to “see” or “hear beyond” – which in actuality is an ability we all have: to see color or hear music. These people also have the ability to transmit or receive memories from one another.

In none of these examples are people seeking the help of the devil; their abilities are inborn, and are part of the reality of their universes. As Michelle Arnold (I think) said, we’re free to approach such works from the angle “What if God allowed things like this to happen – what would one do?” I think all of the examples I’ve discussed – not the least of which is Harry Potter – provide good examples of good people **using what they were given **to further the cause of good.

Peace,
Dante

 

[StCsDavid]

IMHO, the use of magic in a book such as Harry Potter in itself is harmless.

What is damaging is the lack of moral foundation of the young reader, especially in these United States. The risk becomes that the unformed conscience gives more weight to the fantastical elements of the fictional work. If parents live their lives demonstrating and sharing a strong faith, this is not much of an issue as the child knows that the book is entertainment, but for a good number of “cultural Catholics” where the parents don’t give much priority to their faith, such concepts of magic run the chance of taking on more importance than they should and could prove to be a distraction from the truth. Of course this isn’t limited to just Harry Potter. There are many other forms of distraction.

 

[Meggie]

So, from the point of a teacher, or potentially an author, an editor or an adviser would it be immoral to encourage these supernatural themes to American children today?

 

[StCsDavid]

So, from the point of a teacher, or potentially an author, an editor or an adviser would it be immoral to encourage these supernatural themes to American children today?

IMHO, no. You can’t be the parents for all of your audience/students, and there are some positive values in many of the books in this genre.

It would be neat if you could enhance your efforts with including some of the supernatural events surrounding the saints to give a true account juxtaposed to the fiction.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

So, from the point of a teacher, or potentially an author, an editor or an adviser would it be immoral to encourage these supernatural themes to American children today?

I do not think so. They key with all these stories are they are fiction. As long as that is known, then that alone tells most people it cannot happen in real life.

 

[Della]

As a fantasy writer I can tell you that my characters do not use magic–their abilities come from their office or from innate ability. C. S. Lewis used the word magic, he made a clear distinction between what is commonly thought of as magic, the occult, and God-given gifts and prayer.

Tolkien’s Gandalf was “servant of the Secret Fire,” another name for the Holy Spirit, as I understand, so he certainly wasn’t tapping into any demonic powers, but calling upon the power of God to accomplish his mission. Saruman forgot who he was serving and took power to himself, giving himself over to the demonic powers, which is why he fell and was divested of his rank and office. Any child that is well-grounded in the truth is capable of seeing the difference between good and evil.

As a little girl I loved Peter Pan, but I knew he was a fictional character very different from Jesus whom I worshiped on Sundays with my family and prayed to every day. I think we don’t give children credit for having enough intelligence or common sense to know fantasy from reality. Most certainly do.

And although there are always going to be some who will not see the difference, most will because fantasy is all about exploring truths in guises that make them easier to deal with, and which also help to form good consciences in young souls.

 

[johnnykins]

FWIW - my experience is that children know and recognize pretend for what it is. It’s the adults who can’t tell the difference.

Children know Harry Potter is pretend. They also know Dracula, Frankenstein’s monster, fairies and other Halloween ghoulies and creatures are pretend. IMHO a lot of adults need a big dose of valium with respect to the entire issue.

To be honest Harry Potter is miraculous because my then 4th grader read a 700+ page book in 2 days when the 4th book came out some years back - that was a miracle IMHO.

 

[the_nuge]

FWIW - my experience is that children know and recognize pretend for what it is. It’s the adults who can’t tell the difference.

Children know the difference? Really? I don’t have nightmares when I see Scrooge pushed into his grave by the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. But my 4th grader did. “I know it’s just pretend Daddy.” My kids always tell me that, but I don’t think their subconcious processes what we teach their intellect yet. If I push the bar just a little on what’s appropriate for them to watch, sure enough they’re in my bed at 2 AM saying they can’t sleep.

And FWIW, I’m actually amazed at your statement, IMHO.

The subtleties in Harry Potter go beyond the use of magic and whether it’s pretend or not. Please read this article by Michael O’Brien, author and painter. It has some deeply disturbing insight to the HP series that I can see in the novels which I have read and am not letting my children read because of them. They don’t see these things, but being the little sponges they are, I guarentee they are absorbing it and being formed by it.

"And aren’t there a lot of positive values in these books and films—even some edifying moments of courage and sacrifice? And isn’t it all about love?” Yes, in a sense it is. But what kind of love? What kind of sacrifice? And for what purpose? The series is also about the usefulness of hatred and pride, malice toward your real or perceived enemies, seeking and using secret knowledge, lies, cunning, contempt, and sheer good luck in order to defeat whatever threatens you or stands in the path of your desires. It is a cornucopia of other false messages: The end justifies the means. Nothing is as it seems. No one can really be trusted, except those whom you feel comfortable with, who support your aims and make you feel good about yourself. Killing others is justified if you are good and they are bad. Conservative people are bad, anti-magic dogmatists are really bad and deserve whatever punishment they get (hence the delicious retributions against the Dursleys).

 

[Della]

Children know the difference? Really? I don’t have nightmares when I see Scrooge pushed into his grave by the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. But my 4th grader did. “I know it’s just pretend Daddy.” My kids always tell me that, but I don’t think their subconcious processes what we teach their intellect yet. If I push the bar just a little on what’s appropriate for them to watch, sure enough they’re in my bed at 2 AM saying they can’t sleep.

Of course, every parent has to decide what is appropriate for his/her children to see or read. But, one way to keep them from having nightmares is to watch the program with them/read the book with them, and then get them to talk about it. Let them draw pictures of the moments that made the biggest impression, such as Scrooge falling into his grave. Then talk about what the story was all about. It will lessen the impact on their minds if they face their fears and talk about what they’ve seen/read.

I have not read HP so I cannot comment on it in particular, but fantasy and sci-fi do tend to invoke strong images. If such things are too intense for your children then direct their reading/viewing to other types of media. Some children thrive on fantasy/sci-fi (I did), but others don’t. Some can sort out the meaning of such fiction, and others can’t. As a parent only you can know what is best for your children.

 

[leonie]

IMHO, the use of magic in a book such as Harry Potter in itself is harmless.

What is damaging is the lack of moral foundation of the young reader, especially in these United States. The risk becomes that the unformed conscience gives more weight to the fantastical elements of the fictional work. If parents live their lives demonstrating and sharing a strong faith, this is not much of an issue as the child knows that the book is entertainment, but for a good number of “cultural Catholics” where the parents don’t give much priority to their faith, such concepts of magic run the chance of taking on more importance than they should and could prove to be a distraction from the truth. Of course this isn’t limited to just Harry Potter. There are many other forms of distraction.

Exactly!!!

My kids are not affected by “magical” books, but one of my friends heard a girl at the library ask for witchcraft books. The Librarian asked if she was interested because of the Harry Potter books. She answered in the affirmative.

But, I find some of this genre offensive. The Philip Pullman books are anti-Catholic. And some of the teen types books center their books on Mother Earth or include rape/sexuality.

 

[sires6]

I found that even my morally strong and well versed girls missed some of the finer points of Harry’s bad behavior, like the fact that he constantly goes against the adults and does what he thinks is right without communicating with the adults, rather than doing all that is right. Granted it would make for a more boring story, but it is a discussion point and one that my girls really didn’t understand. doing the thing that made it all turn out right was more important than doing right, until they looked at it in another way. I think that my girls will read the books and learn where fantasy stops and reality in our faith starts: while reading some fun books. I have more opinions about this, however, I will stop there. I home school and so my daughter’s readings are certainly not constrained to Rowlings, but rather The Good Earth, Oddesey, Last of the Mohicans and The Scarlet Letter… far far better reading and worth every minute of time for them.

 

[Townie]

We have a real war going on in my family about Harry Potter as one of my daughters says that the Pops banned the movie. I have not been able to find anything to validify this. My other daughter allows her 13 and 10 years old to go which upsets her sister. I am glad to read these opinions as I will share them with my children.
Townie

 

[mesquite_magic]

As a fantasy writer I can tell you that my characters do not use magic–their abilities come from their office or from innate ability. C. S. Lewis used the word magic, he made a clear distinction between what is commonly thought of as magic, the occult, and God-given gifts and prayer.

Tolkien’s Gandalf was “servant of the Secret Fire,” another name for the Holy Spirit, as I understand, so he certainly wasn’t tapping into any demonic powers, but calling upon the power of God to accomplish his mission. Saruman forgot who he was serving and took power to himself, giving himself over to the demonic powers, which is why he fell and was divested of his rank and office. Any child that is well-grounded in the truth is capable of seeing the difference between good and evil.

As a little girl I loved Peter Pan, but I knew he was a fictional character very different from Jesus whom I worshiped on Sundays with my family and prayed to every day. ** I think we don’t give children credit for having enough intelligence or common sense to know fantasy from reality. Most certainly do.**

And although there are always going to be some who will not see the difference, most will because fantasy is all about exploring truths in guises that make them easier to deal with, and which also help to form good consciences in young souls.

I love this post. You said exactly what I couldn’t articulate.

Meggie, I’m trying to understand why you put “Bridge To Tarabitha” in with books about magic. That book is all about kids using their imagination. It’s clear that the magic is all in their imagination, weather you read the book, or watch the movie.

Kim

 

[RhyannaRose]

I’m so glad to see a calm, rational debate on this topic!

Personally, I agree with the posters who stated that children know the difference between real and make believe better then we give them credit for. But for the children who don’t seem to have a grasp of the difference, parental guidance is the best solution. I did understand the difference, and while my parents let me read the much contested “Goosebumps” series to my heart’s content, I didn’t see my first real horror movie until I was 15. Looking back on it, I agree with their decision there, because I think there is a big difference between reading something and using your imagination to see it, or just seeing it on the movie screen.

While I’m not thrilled with the Harry Potter phenomena because of the witchcraft conotations, I do think if people want to worry about their kids turning to witchcraft they need to worry a little less about Harry and gang and start worrying about the friends they hang around with and what they pick up at school. As someone who saw the darkness of Wicca personally, I can tell you it wasn’t Stephen King novels or horror movies that made me think that people could practice witchcraft…it was a good friend of mine back in my senior year of high school. I firmly believe that the witchcraft messages that will get to our children the most aren’t the fictional ones, but when they see REAL people, especially REAL teens and children, performing these acts and find out that witches DO exsist.

And someone mentioned not liking rape/sexuality themes in children’s books. I do agree that smut has no room in teen fiction, but I do think with the high rate of sexual abuse in this country that it is a relevant topic for writers, even those who cater to a teenaged audiance. I have been through sexual abuse in my life time, and writing about it has helped me come to terms with it. I don’t think we can pretend it doesn’t happen. And to me, the greatest purpose of fiction is to expose deeper truths. What I mean is, you can read in a textbook about slavery and learn what it was like, or you can pick up a novel on the topic and learn what it FELT like for the people who experinced it.

 

[drafdog]

Please, don’t let’s get started on rape/sexuality in books as a reason to keep them from children. I know that some books contain dishonesty, rape, incest, murder, detention without due process, fratricide, adultery, murderous family in fighting and lots more. But we read them for other values that they also contain. Don’t ban books like this. I took all those examples out of the Bible.

Matthew

 

[KathleenElsie]

IMHO the use of fantasy as long as the person reading the book knows what is REAL and NOT REAL is normally harmless. Now that being said, when the book is aimed a children forming their idea of REAL and NOT REAL then the book is not something that should be promoted.

We are watching a friends children this week and one of them is into the poke mon (not even sure I am spelling it properly). Everything that comes out of the mouth of this child is about the characters who they are, what they do and on and on. She does not want to play outside or read about other things. So for a child like this there is no way that fantasy is appropriate.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Please, don’t let’s get started on rape/sexuality in books as a reason to keep them from children. I know that some books contain dishonesty, rape, incest, murder, detention without due process, fratricide, adultery, murderous family in fighting and lots more. But we read them for other values that they also contain. Don’t ban books like this. I took all those examples out of the Bible.

Matthew

To ban a book is to promote that book to some readers. But, there is no reason to allow unlimited access to read them. I wish all parents were responsible parents, but the unfortunate fact is they are not.
And no the Bible is not something that the children should read without parental supervision. Adults have a hard time interpreting the Bible how would you expect a child to do so.

We as parents should take the time to read with the children Bible, history, science etc so they learn the truth not the faction.

 

[Arwen037]

i am a first year college student, so I have this from the kid’s perspective. What you allow your kids to read/watch should be governed by the maturity and personality of your children. I’ve read some books, one focusing on a girl having been raped and her trying to deal with it and admit it happened, and one about a girl who is trying to decide whether or not to have sex with her boyfriend, which I probably will keep away from my sister until she’s way into college. The one about the rape would freak her out, even at the same age I read it. The one about the girl and her boyfriend I don’t feel should be on my Catholic high school’s shelves, but it didn’t make me want to have sex. I’ve read all the HP books, lemony snicket, seen pokemon, read the giver, read them all. They are really good. They all encouraged me to read and it increases kids’ willingness to read.
Oh, and as far as ignoring adults, sometimes in HP that choice it right. And in the books often Dumbledore is encouraging harry to investigate beyond normal limits.

 

[Meggie]

I love this post. You said exactly what I couldn’t articulate.

Meggie, I’m trying to understand why you put “Bridge To Tarabitha” in with books about magic. That book is all about kids using their imagination. It’s clear that the magic is all in their imagination, weather you read the book, or watch the movie.

Kim

Although it is about imagination the level to which its taken is that the fantasies were able to be seen, heard and felt by the children.

My kids are not affected by “magical” books, but one of my friends heard a girl at the library ask for witchcraft books. The Librarian asked if she was interested because of the Harry Potter books. She answered in the affirmative.

This is why I get frustrated with people. If you did not hear it yourself, you DID NOT hear it. You do not know if your friend mis-heard. The girl could of been asking for things in the magical genre which include many great books such as Patricia C. Wrede’s “Dealing With Dragons” T. A. Barron’s “Lost Years of Merlin” or a whole host of other books.

FYI I knew many teens practicing witchcraft in high school. They hated Potter with a fervor that matched the Christians. To them it was mis-informing, silly, and rude. The kids in Potter have Christian Holidays, use Latin thats more ecclesiastical than spell-like, and have no rituals whatsoever. I don’t believe they even have all that many symbols, besides things that they are superstitious of.

We are watching a friends children this week and one of them is into the poke mon (not even sure I am spelling it properly). Everything that comes out of the mouth of this child is about the characters who they are, what they do and on and on. She does not want to play outside or read about other things. So for a child like this there is no way that fantasy is appropriate.

In children like this who are “consumed” with a subject, I don’t think its wrong. They can “play pokemon” outside, thats the parent’s fault for not encouraging a kid to do that. They can read about things and they will eventually out-grow it. Often a draw like this isn’t magical, rather, can point to a normal childhood phase. If she wanted to play piano all the time people would be calling her a young genious.

I’ve read some books, one focusing on a girl having been raped and her trying to deal with it and admit it happened, and one about a girl who is trying to decide whether or not to have sex with her boyfriend, which I probably will keep away from my sister until she’s way into college. The one about the rape would freak her out, even at the same age I read it.

Although this is an entirely different subject, I think its silly that you have the idea your sister hasn’t had to face the issue of sex either herself or one of her friends. 1 in 3 or as high as 6 in 10 girls have been sexually abused by 18. Perhaps its true she dosn’t need to go reading about it, but thinking that its a subject that your sister has never come in contact with, unless she has only one friend, is a statistical impossibility.

I found that even my morally strong and well versed girls missed some of the finer points of Harry’s bad behavior, like the fact that he constantly goes against the adults and does what he thinks is right without communicating with the adults, rather than doing all that is right. Granted it would make for a more boring story, but it is a discussion point and one that my girls really didn’t understand. doing the thing that made it all turn out right was more important than doing right, until they looked at it in another way.

“finer points of harry’s bad behaviour?..it would make for a more boring story” Harry acts in an age-appropriate way. An 11yo in such a situation would probably act much like Harry was portrayed acting. As Harry got older he did seek the council of his friends and adults. He grew up and matured. He made his own decisions when adults weren’t thinking straight.