Fantasy/Reality Books

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my sons read everything within reach, including sci-fi and fantasy, and they made it into adulthood as fine, upstanding men, active in Church and community.

Rowlings, an average writer at best, tapped into how kids see the world: every kid feels alienated at times, every kid wants to feel like he or she is in control his world, every kid rebels against parental Authority … .

lighten up, people, its just a book, kids really do know the difference between subcreation and reality.

besides, there’s enough real evil out in the world to worry about without looking for it in fiction. the only book I remember wondering if they had the maturity to read was Eugene Kogan’s, *The Theory and Practice of Hell: The German ConcentrationCamps and the System Behind Them * Voldemort, Darth Vader, Sauron are walks in the park compared to real evil.
 
It really is this simple. Ask yourself this question about EACH of your kids: Is he/she mature enough to know that Harry’s powers are an imaginary construct no different that Superman’s, or will he be intrigued and interested when he finds out there are people who claim to have REAL such powers?

If you aren’t sure, err on the side of caution. Me, I love HP. But my 6 year old DD (who CAN read) won’t be reading them for quite some years yet.
 
The question isn’t about YOUR kids, but you bringing fiction into the eye of the general public, as an educator, book reviewer, as a writer, as a store clerk, basically anything that would make you a direct contributer to putting these books in hands of kids who don’t have you as a parent.
 
my sons read everything within reach, including sci-fi and fantasy, and they made it into adulthood as fine, upstanding men, active in Church and community.
That’s probably because they were well-balanced. When I was being educated we read The Odyssey and Greek Mythology in a Catholic school. But there were underlying lessons to be learned there, not only just entertainment for its own sake.

Personally I see a problem when one can get obsessed to the point it becames a false god or religion. When one sleeps, reads, thinks, or watches Harry Potter all day long, I don’t see that as being too healthy.
 
Why is it that every time something within the science-fiction or fantasy genres become popular, so
many people start condemning it? I would submit that there are many other books out there with the potential (note I said POTENTIAL) to do harm, yet the biggest arguments I’ve heard so far have all come from fantasy related titles.

Professionally, I’m a librarian. Too many times I’ve known people who condemned a book they hadn’t actually read, simply because of the title, subject matter, or even the cover illustration. Some, after deciding to read the book to see what it actually says, have told me it wasn’t what they’d expected at all.

Personally, I’m a big SF & F fan and read many such books–but my shelves also include well-read copies of classical literature, and many books on many subjects. As a child I got a kick out of being scared of the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz–but even then I knew that she was just a pretend-person. And some of the genre books I’ve read have actually helped deepen my faith in God by making me THINK about various issues.

I agree, there are some children who may be better off not reading some books until they are older. Parents should know their own kids well enough to make that call. But please remember, not every child is going to start worshiping Satan simply because he or she watched a Harry Potter movie or read one of the books.
 
My perspective is that as a child, I was a voracious reader. I read a lot of junk. And, I definitely read things that I shouldn’t have read. My parents didn’t screen any of my reading material. In fact, for some odd reason, my mom used to pass me her romance novels when I was a young as fourth grade.

The best scenario is discussing everything your kids read with them. But, often that is not possible due to time constraints.

I’ve been trying to screen things my kids are reading with more consistency since the older ones have graduated to “young adult” books. I’m definitely not a prude, but I’m often shocked by these books. I am esp shocked by the theme of rape (as I mentioned before). In one book, a 13 year old girl is raped and murdered. She haunts her family and friends until at last she is able to possess the body of an old acquaintance and have sex with the boy she had a crush on at 13. In another book in a medieval setting, a young teenage girl is raped. Some sort of magical creatures watch her. One of them redeems her by having sex with her. Then the girl is stoned to death by the villagers with her pig as a sacrifice to nature. I read another book about a girl who is raped by her father, wanders off to a magical place, has a miscarriage, then is transformed into some kind of mythological hero.

ugh. How do these types of books help a victim of sexual abuse deal with it?

There was one book that I allowed my dd to read. In this book, a 13 year old girl is raped at a drinking party. And, in the year following goes through a major personality change–typical of a victim of rape. Finally, at the end of the year, she finds the strength to confide in a concerned teacher and an old friend. This book I thought was a good treatment.

Another witchcraft book that horrified me was A Strange and Terrible Beauty. In this book a group of teenage girls go into a magical state/world where they are given powers that they can take into the real world. They form a coven of sorts. The lead character has burning sexual fantasies about a boy in the story.

It’s very disheartening to find so many distasteful books. I think it’s especially hard as my kids grow out of children’s lit, but aren’t quite ready for adult literature. I don’t mind if they read “junk” books–entertaining books without much substance, but I don’t appreciate bad morality.

I was happy for them to read Harry Potter. It is much more wholesome than bunches of books out there.
 
mbesides, there’s enough real evil out in the world to worry about without looking for it in fiction. the only book I remember wondering if they had the maturity to read was Eugene Kogan’s, *The Theory and Practice of Hell: The German ConcentrationCamps and the System Behind Them * Voldemort, Darth Vader, Sauron are walks in the park compared to real evil.
To an extent, I would agree with you: the scariest bad guys are the ones who – psychological and egotistical issues aside – think they’re doing the right thing (Hitler, Osama bin Laden, etc.)

If Sauron or Voldemort were real, however, I think “walk in the park” might be an understatement. 🙂

Peace,
Dante
 
The subtleties in Harry Potter go beyond the use of magic and whether it’s pretend or not. Please read this article by Michael O’Brien, author and painter. It has some deeply disturbing insight to the HP series that I can see in the novels which I have read and am not letting my children read because of them.
O’Brien’s claims are false. The books do not glorify pride and hatred; they do not teach that the ends justify the means (though they show good people sometimes using dubious means, which is quite different); and they do not teach that people who oppose magic “deserve whatever punishment they get” (one turning point in Harry’s relationship with the Dursleys comes when he saves Dudley from dementors; by the time of the final farewell at the beginning of Book 7 they have reached an uneasy truce and Dudley makes it clear that he feels some kind of gratitude to Harry). I read O’Brien’s critiques and say “Did he read the same books I did?”

O’Brien’s own writing could use a bit of Rowling’s moral complexity, although the only book of his I’ve read (Father Elijah) is explicitly described as an apocalypse and so needs moral complexity relatively little.

Edwin
 
In the Harry Potter debate people often site the use of magic as wrong and reasons why Christians should stay away. Some people recognize the link of this type of magic between LOTR and Narnia. the “good” magic, or even the Chronicals of the Wizard of OZ (NOT the movie)

However, how are we morally supposed to view things that just use other words for magic and witches, such as Star Wars, or even Louis Lowery’s “Giver” series or Bridge to Teribitthia or Scott Westerfied’s “Midnighters” or “Uglies” series? Is the use of other words, other explanations or other means for the not-necessarly evil or good driven supernatural ok?

1. A lot of people say “supernatural” when it would be more accurate as a matter of Catholic theology to say “praeternatural”.​

  • a. God is (from our POV) supernatural, as are miracles - because they are always His works. So are the virtues, in their origin.
  • b. Things that go “bump” in the night, OTOH, are not super-, but only praeter-. “Ghosts” are praeter: as are the “occult”, angels, demons (= bad angels) etc.
  • c. Plenty of things are neither - dragons, even dragons from other planets, would not be.
    2. It is not clear that (what we might call) magic, taking place in an invented world, is the same sort of thing as it it would be in the “Primary” world (= the one we live in as human beings in time & space). What would be magic in our time & space, is not necessarily magic if one is Gandalf the wizard - because G. is not from “our” world; not even in the Secondary world of the fiction in which he is a character. A lot of the action takes place in what is a very ancient form of the world we live in - Middle Earth is the world of men we live in now. But Gandalf is not from Middle Earth - he is more* like* an incarnate angel. His sort of being, is different from that of men - so it does not follow, that his “magic” (which is what it is called by the human critics of the stories he appears, & by some of characters in the stories) is magic from his POV. What is magic to us, may be a perfectly natural mode of action for him. And it is no sin - or is it ? - to invent a character of this sort. If it is a sin: how, & why ?
3. I’ve not read the Harry Potter books - but if a character has magical abilities by birth, even in the Primary world (which where the books take place) it’s not clear that he is wrong to exercise them. They may upset the expectations we have of the created order of nature we live in - but so do miracles. Multiplying food by magic, & doing so by miracle, both upset the (usually justifiable) expectation that food can come only by the growth of plants throughout the year.

4. A lot of this debate is confused by inability to distinguish fact from fiction: what an author has a character do in his invented, or Secondary, world, is not to be confused with what an author approves of as good in the Primary world. Authors make their characters act as they do because the action furthers the story or reflects the personality of that character. And magic is as good a way of developing the story as any - especially if the story’s central character is a boy born with magical powers; this is a million miles from promoting devil-worship or black magic. If people are too stupid or uneducated to tell the difference between events in the Primary world & in the Secondary world, that is no fault of the author. Such readers should stick to something they can understand - such as “The Cat in the Hat”.
 
To an extent, I would agree with you: the scariest bad guys are the ones who – psychological and egotistical issues aside – think they’re doing the right thing (Hitler, Osama bin Laden, etc.)

If Sauron or Voldemort were real, however, I think “walk in the park” might be an understatement. 🙂

Peace,
Dante

I’d be more afraid of Melkor - Sauron is a kitten compared to him 🙂

 
Hi all

has the Catholic Church by any chance commented on the Goosebumps series? Or perhaps prohibited them?
 
In the Harry Potter debate people often site the use of magic as wrong and reasons why Christians should stay away. Some people recognize the link of this type of magic between LOTR and Narnia. the “good” magic, or even the Chronicals of the Wizard of OZ (NOT the movie)

However, how are we morally supposed to view things that just use other words for magic and witches, such as Star Wars, or even Louis Lowery’s “Giver” series or Bridge to Teribitthia or Scott Westerfied’s “Midnighters” or “Uglies” series? Is the use of other words, other explanations or other means for the not-necessarly evil or good driven supernatural ok?
Huh?

The HP series is as Christian as LOTR. BOTH authors revealed their Christian theology; both authors wrote excellent tales about good versus evil.

Maybe it’s those who can’t tell the difference who are in trouble.
 
Hi all

has the Catholic Church by any chance commented on the Goosebumps series? Or perhaps prohibited them?
They’re just fictional horror stories. The Church has bigger moral issues to worry about than making petty and trivial specifications on how to write fiction.

From the personal standpoint of a critic though… I can’t say I liked them very much. They make good reading till you’re about, I don’t know, ten? :o
 
It’s something I call metaphors and allegories. That’s right. Lord of the Rings has Catholic themes regarding power and greed. Twilight ugh is basically a series about abstinence. Harry Potter has many Christian themes as well, just Google it.
 
my sons read everything within reach, including sci-fi and fantasy, and they made it into adulthood as fine, upstanding men, active in Church and community.

Rowlings, an average writer at best, tapped into how kids see the world: every kid feels alienated at times, every kid wants to feel like he or she is in control his world, every kid rebels against parental Authority … .

lighten up, people, its just a book, kids really do know the difference between subcreation and reality.

besides, there’s enough real evil out in the world to worry about without looking for it in fiction. the only book I remember wondering if they had the maturity to read was Eugene Kogan’s, *The Theory and Practice of Hell: The German ConcentrationCamps and the System Behind Them * Voldemort, Darth Vader, Sauron are walks in the park compared to real evil.
“It’s just a book” is a bad reaction to all the books out there.

Some kids who read Harry Potter may wander over the local bookstore’s “New Age” or “speculation” section and see some brightly illustrated covers introducing them to Wicca or Magick or other supernatural themes. They might even spot a book about crystals and all the wondrous things they can do for you; i.e. find happiness, love, wealth, etc.

All books are not created equal.

Parents should supervise all of their children’s reading. Even two boys from the same family can have differing temperaments and reactions to certain things. Unfortunately, we are living in an era where people are angry about “age appropriate” anything. They want a fake form of what they call “freedom” that amounts to personal slavery. Nothing should be banned, everything should be shown, and we’ve got First Amendment Lawyers and You Can’t Stop Us.

Unless a person has actually lived through a Concentration Camp, even a book with pictures cannot begin to describe it. I knew such a man. He usually wore long sleeve shirts because of the tattoo on his arm.

To everyone reading: Don’t lighten up. Don’t assume that book publishers, TV producers or Hollywood will give you and your family anything that you find appropriate and compatible with a Catholic life. Prior to 1969, the media was Very Reflective of Christian Values. After that time, it gradually started to poison believers in this country.

God bless,
Ed
 
So, from the point of a teacher, or potentially an author, an editor or an adviser would it be immoral to encourage these supernatural themes to American children today?
Anything that encourages them to read is to be encouraged. I don’t care what it is.
 
In the Harry Potter debate people often site the use of magic as wrong and reasons why Christians should stay away. Some people recognize the link of this type of magic between LOTR and Narnia. the “good” magic, or even the Chronicals of the Wizard of OZ (NOT the movie)

However, how are we morally supposed to view things that just use other words for magic and witches, such as Star Wars, or even Louis Lowery’s “Giver” series or Bridge to Teribitthia or Scott Westerfied’s “Midnighters” or “Uglies” series? Is the use of other words, other explanations or other means for the not-necessarly evil or good driven supernatural ok?
Dear Meggie,

Cordial greetings.

As regards the Harry Potter novels you should be aware that not all who feel compelled to critique these books and to appraise them unfavourably are wide-eyed and uniformed fundamentalists. On the contrary, several respected Catholic commentators including Gabreile Kuby, Steven Wood, Vivian Dudro and Matthew Arnold have offered well-grounded criticisms respecting the defects of these culturally unwholesome books/films. Thus it would be mistaken to assume that any man who resists and censures the Potter phenomenom is to be suspected of being a slightly dippy and unintelligent fool. Apart from being downright uncharitable it demonstrates that those who respond in this manner somehow feel threatened when they are confronted by the arguments of the opposing viewpoint. Otherwise why resort to ad hominem attacks and and the use of scurrilous language against one’s antagonist? Even if a man feels that the Potter critic is irrational, reactionary and prejudiced, he still has a right to be accorded respect and to be addressed in a courteous manner. After all, hurling abusive epithets is no subsitute for informed debate and discussion and only serves to underscore the weakness of one’s own position.

For me and myriads of others the problem with Potter is not merely the fact of fantasy question. Rather, the crucial issue is Rowling’s symbol world of the actual occult as her *primary *metaphor and occultic activities as the engine of her plots. Moreover, it presents these to the young reader via attractive role models, Harry and Hermoine, who are students of witchcraft and sorcery. Now many of us are of the opinion that this is just too close for comfort and the attempt to minimize and rationalize the unmistakable correlation between Potters magic and witchcraft and its real life counterpart is wholly unconvincing, although you will hear many specious arguments by those desperate to vindicate the Potter series. Indeed, it is the striking resemblance between the two that so many Catholics find problematic and disturbing, especially when it is remembered that Rowling’s primary target group for her books are impressionable young people who’s minds are yet in a state of formation. Therefore many parents think it perfectly reasonble to ask if they can really afford to take the totally unnecessary risk of stimulating their child’s interest in the occultic subcultures. As Ed says in his post above, they may end up in the local bookshop’s New Age section and even find an unhealthy interest aroused in Wicca or magic, who knows where it might just lead. As I have remarked so often on these boards, even one precious soul lost to the occultic subcultures is one precious soul too many; it is a precious soul for whom our Lord died so I am sure He is concerned.

Those of us who are parent’s are called by the Church to be pro-active in fostering a vital Christian culture for our children. Thus anything that frustrates this objective (books, TV programmes, music and computer games with unwholesome and questionable content must be firmly repudiated). This has nothing whatsooever to do with being overscrupulous or with being a moralistic fuddy-duddy, but it does have everything to do with rearing our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and shielding them from subtle harmful influences that could lead them away from the path of virtue - perhaps permanently. Would we want that upon our consciences?

The Harry Potter series of books/films are insiduously brainwashing our children with the moral illiteracy and relativism that now so abounds in our irreligious Western world, where moral degeneracy is all too plainly evident. This is a plea to give this culturally unwholesome and potentially dangerous material a very wide-birth indeed.

Please forgive the homily, but this is a topic about which I feel most strongly, hence my passionate tone. Do consult those commentators to which I have refered above as they present very cogent arguments against the Potter books/films.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
For me and myriads of others the problem with Potter is not merely the fact of fantasy question. Rather, the crucial issue is Rowling’s symbol world of the actual occult as her *primary *metaphor and occultic activities as the engine of her plots. Moreover, it presents these to the young reader via attractive role models, Harry and Hermoine, who are students of witchcraft and sorcery. Now many of us are of the opinion that this is just too close for comfort and the attempt to minimize and rationalize the unmistakable correlation between Potters magic and witchcraft and its real life counterpart is wholly unconvincing, although you will hear many specious arguments by those desperate to vindicate the Potter series.
Again, Portrait despite your eloquence your head needs a new dictionary for the following terms: “unmistakable” and “unconvincing”.

I’ve been patient with your railings against the fantasy genre (and not just the works of Rowling but Tolkien and Lewis as well). However, no matter how many times I’ve confronted you regarding your claims, you have yet to produce evidence that waving a stick and spouting dog Latin produces reality-busting results. Also, while I may not be a pharmacist, I can tell you that mixing whatever potion recipe you find in the novels will just end you up with an unstable concoction (and a really big mess in wherever you made it).
As Ed says in his post above, they may end up in the local bookshop’s New Age section and even find an unhealthy interest aroused in Wicca or magic, who knows where it might just lead. As I have remarked so often on these boards, even one precious soul lost to the occultic subcultures is one precious soul too many; it is a precious soul for whom our Lord died so I am sure He is concerned.
Following that logic, all Catholics should reject evolutionary theory on the grounds that we find Darwin’s The Origin of Species next to Dawkin’s God Delusion in the local bookstore. :rolleyes:
Please forgive the homily, but this is a topic about which I feel most strongly, hence my passionate tone. Do consult those commentators to which I have refered above as they present very cogent arguments against the Potter books/films.
Yeah it’s passionate but that’s all there is to it. There’s no reason or substance. You’ve claimed these same things about the fantasy genre over and over again Portrait but you have hardly substantiated any of them just on the grounds of logic alone. Neither have you shown any expertise or experience in the field of writing fiction so I don’t think you’re in any position to criticize how an author tries to create believably human characters who are supposed to have imperfect morals. Many heroes in fiction weren’t exactly moral paragons. Take Tom Sawyer, Romeo, and Robin Hood for example.

I guess that adds another word whose definition needs reformatting in your mental dictionary: “cogent”. If what you say here is any indication of any “reasoning” the people you cite have, I don’t think they’re worth the time.
 
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