Fast Tracking the Canonization of John Paul II

[JKirkLVNV]

It would be an interesting irony of both John Paul II and Archbishop Lefebvre (may he rest in peace) are both canonized, as I’m sure Lefebvre will someday be. If John Paul II IS ever canonized and is in heaven, I guess he FINALLY knows that his “excommunication” of Lefebvre was invalid! That and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

You mean IF Lefebvre is in heaven. Or are YOU canonizing HIM?

 

[Cor_Jesu]

I don’t feel the need to worry about it one way or the other. You know, most of the saints, at least of the last century or so, have had people pulling for their canonization. This is no different.

Yeah but they weren’t demanding the Pope to basically subvert the entire process to make an exception for the saint whose cause they’re promoting, as many of the John Paul II fanatics are advocating. John Paul II did away with the “devil’s advocate” position in the process of sainthood…which probably explains how Josemaria made it.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I don’t feel the need to worry about it one way or the other. You know, most of the saints, at least of the last century or so, have had people pulling for their canonization. This is no different.

What is different about it, is the power of media, and the instant gratification that our society seeks and demands.

 

[Cor_Jesu]

You mean IF Lefebvre is in heaven. Or are YOU canonizing HIM?

You mean IF JP2 is in heaven. Sheesh, they are already cranking out medals and rosaries as if he’s a canonized saint! Even during his LIFETIME they were doing this. I have heard some people even advocate that he be declared a martyr because he suffered from Parkinson’s…if that is what it takes to be declared a martyr, I guess you can count my grandma who died of cancer! I even saw a book called “John Paul II for Dummies”. What a personality cult!

 

[Cor_Jesu]

What is different about it, is the power of media, and the instant gratification that our society seeks and demands.

Well, you know it makes perfect sense in light of the fact that the whole end of JP2’s pontificate was centered on man and the modern world.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Yeah but they weren’t demanding the Pope to basically subvert the entire process to make an exception for the saint whose cause they’re promoting, as many of the John Paul II fanatics are advocating. John Paul II did away with the “devil’s advocate” position in the process of sainthood…which probably explains how Josemaria made it.

The Pope, being pope, will manage.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What is different about it, is the power of media, and the instant gratification that our society seeks and demands.

I dunno what to tell you, except trust God and the Church.

 

[Cor_Jesu]

The Pope, being pope, will manage.

And no devil’s advocate will be a definite help to Lefebreve’s cause, so I’ve no idea why you’d complain.

LOL. I have no idea what you could be referring to. Don’t know much about Lefebvre, do you?

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Note from Moderator:

This thread was recently moved from Traditional Catholicism to its proper placement in Spirituality since it concerns canonization and sainthood. Many will note that the tone and tenor taken in Traditional Catholicism is not one found in the Spirituality board, nor is the topic of sedevacantism allowed to be discussed, euphemized, or alluded to here.

The discussion about Pope John Paul II’s possible canonization, pro or con, may continue. All members are reminded that they must state their positions with charity toward each other, the administrative staff, the Catholic Church, and her hierarchs.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

LOL. I have no idea what you could be referring to. Don’t know much about Lefebvre, do you?

Whether you fall out of the boat on the right side or the left side, you’ve still fallen out of the boat.

 

[Cor_Jesu]

Note from Moderator:

This thread was recently moved from Traditional Catholicism to its proper placement in Spirituality since it concerns canonization and sainthood. Many will note that the tone and tenor taken in Traditional Catholicism is not one found in the Spirituality board, nor is the topic of sedevacantism allowed to be discussed, euphemized, or alluded to here.

The discussion about Pope John Paul II’s possible canonization, pro or con, may continue. All members are reminded that they must state their positions with charity toward each other, the administrative staff, the Catholic Church, and her hierarchs.

In other words, we can’t have a thread discussing whether or not John Paul II should be canonized that allows imput from Traditionalists?

 

[Cor_Jesu]

Whether you fall out of the boat on the right side or the left side, you’ve still fallen out of the boat.

Exactly, Vegas…which is why all we Traditionalists are doing is staying IN the boat. It’s YOU who have jumped ship, and the thing you call “Catholicism” is barely recognizable as the religion known as Catholicism as it existed for the first 1,965 years.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

In other words, we can’t have a thread discussing whether or not John Paul II should be canonized that allows imput from Traditionalists?

No, it means you must be respectful in stating your opinion and you must follow the board rules. The same applies for all posters and has nothing to do with whether they are pro or con. If you anticipate having a problem with that, you can write to me privately.

 

[pnewton]

In other words, we can’t have a thread discussing whether or not John Paul II should be canonized that allows imput from Traditionalists?

(name removed by moderator)ut away. You even have a staff chat link. There is only one restricted topic: se…$%^@*@. buzz…sprt… click…pfft.

 

[LilyM]

Yeah but they weren’t demanding the Pope to basically subvert the entire process to make an exception for the saint whose cause they’re promoting, as many of the John Paul II fanatics are advocating. John Paul II did away with the “devil’s advocate” position in the process of sainthood…which probably explains how Josemaria made it.

Oh of course not … and that’s how St Peter of Verona was canonized 337 days after his death back in 1253, and St Anthony of Padua a mere 352 days after his death in 1232 … of course saints have had their backers and promoters throughout the history of the Church.

And the early saints of course had to go through no requirement at all as far as miracles, investigation of their lives, even proof beyond mere legend of their existence or name - witness the demotion of St Christopher and St Catherine of Alexandria. Not to mention the curiosity of St Expeditus, who is named from a label affixed to a package of his relics - quite possibly simply a direction for the package to be delivered speedily - “expedite” - and not his name at all!

 

[blessedstar]

There are thousands of canonised Saints. We can never have too many Saints or saints afterall this is what we desire for each other to be with Jesus forever.

I also believe that the judgement we pass on others will be the measure with which we will be judged and clearly we are not fit judges of anyone. I don’t even trust myself to judge myself, let alone anyone else.

The Church does not make personal judgements. The process of canonisation is not a series of judgements, it is rather a prayerful consideration in the Holy Spirit to Whom the Church is entrusted and we are not relying on personal judgements but await the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes the Holy Spirit works slowly and sometimes the Holy Spirit assails the soul quickly for His own reasons and purpose.

To not trust the Church is to not trust the Spirit that leads the Church and has done so since the Pentecost. Such distrust leads to people following personal preference and to disobedience, such as following after unapproved or disapproved apparitions, selective adherance to doctrine and omittance of other doctrine, promoting personal worship above unity etc.

The Church moves as she does not because she has a personal agenda but for the good of the entire Church and the Body of Christ, ultimately for the good of the world and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Personal opinion is the strawman, adherance to the Church is the Rock that will prevail against the gates of Hell. I prefer to dash down my personal opinions in favour of the the Rock that will always stand.

Wait, pray and obey.

 

[Joysong]

LilyM:

Oh of course not … and that’s how St Peter of Verona was canonized 337 days after his death back in 1253, and St Anthony of Padua a mere 352 days after his death in 1232 … of course saints have had their backers and promoters throughout the history of the Church.

You bring up a strong point, Lily. The Holy Spirit has often moved within the grass roots of the faithful long before the hierarchy made official proclamations. I remember the faithful flocking in hordes to tombs of those whom they knew in their heart were a saint.

Nothing had been started in her cause, but her book Story of a Soul was circulated with worldwide demand immediately upon St. Therese’s death. Her autobiography was translated into many languages due to the phenomenal interest in her life. Much later, she was named a saint, and finally a Doctor of the Church.

We might simply consider the source, for Cor Jesu [Anima] has publicly expressed a dislike (to put it mildly!) for Pope John Paul II over in the T.C. forum.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Blessedstar,

I also believe that the judgment we pass on others will be the measure with which we will be judged and clearly we are not fit judges of anyone. I don’t even trust myself to judge myself, let alone anyone else.

Your words are wise! I am dismayed that a thread of this caliber has even been started, for it was an open door for some to demean John Paul and enter into private judgment of … not only him, but the Church who has seen fit to begin the process.

There are thousands of canonized Saints. We can never have too many Saints or saints afterall this is what we desire for each other to be with Jesus forever.

Beautiful thought! The Church invites all of us to celebrate their holy lives each year on November 1st — a holy day of obligation due to the importance of recognizing and honoring God’s saints who remain yet uncanonized.

 

[Spirithound]

Hmm…the Church had some pretty reasonable steps in place for the process of canonization…until JP2 came along and did away with it in order to crank out as many saints as possible.

You’re right!! We have, like over 2000 saints. With a conservative estimate of 2 billion Catholics having lived in the past 2000 years, why, that’s a 1:1 million ratio! Waaaaaay to much veneratin’ going on here!

 

[Spirithound]

…witness the demotion of St Christopher and St Catherine of Alexandria. Not to mention the curiosity of St Expeditus, who is named from a label affixed to a package of his relics - quite possibly simply a direction for the package to be delivered speedily - “expedite” - and not his name at all!

I don’t think Sts. Christopher and Catherine have been “demoted” as such. They may have been removed from the Roman calendar, but their existence and sainthood are not in (official) dispute…Wikipedia may disagree…