A
AyJSimon
Guest
I define it as submission to a future event or series of events believed to be inevitable.
- Status
B
Bookcat
Guest
God sees all and holds all in being.
God sees me with the choice of chocolate or vanilla before me. He also sees my choice of chocolate.
I am free before the choice to choose chocolate or vanilla. I make the choice freely. After the choice is made I have made that choice. God simply sees all that is. Free will of man is including in creation - it is free will not fatalism.
That God sees both prior to the choice any my free choice (and the fall of Rome, and me eating breakfast this morning -all in immediacy). In fact God makes my choice free.
M
Mumbles140
Guest
So did you decide to post this thread? To respond to my posts? Did you have the option not to, in either instance?
If the answer is yes for those questions, then the choices were real because you had the ability to choose.
B
Bahman
Guest
Good. Now lets see how things follow from God point of view. God sees future hence only one of your option is real and the rest is illusion. Hence there is a tension between your point of view and Gods point of view. Which one is true?
M
Mumbles140
Guest
But you are here placing God in a linear view of time. This is the example I gave earlier regarding seeing the decisions in front of you and not knowing which way they will go, and we can’t look back with perfect sight to see where the other path could have gone. That is because we are human. God, however, is not like us, His Ways are not our ways. We are created in His Image and Likeness, but we are part of creation, not the Creator.
The physical limitations of our universe (including time) do not bind God the way they bind us. And so, if you try to ‘humanize’ God’s existence, you will wind up with something that is not God, that can never be God.
B
Bahman
Guest
I don’t. God sees everything at once. He sees that you do X in a specific situation hence only X is real. How your options could be real if you can only do one of them and others are illusion.
M
Mumbles140
Guest
You are creating the illusion of tension. God sees the result of my decision, but He also sees me making my decision, and sees me when the choice is first presented to me. The fact that I made a decision doesn’t make the choice an illusion. It simply was not the ‘selected option’ at that decision, and God sees this and knows this as much as I know that I did not choose it.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Lets cease discussing the same thing basically on two threads. Please choose to cease and only use one 
Or was it fate that you opened two? That you had no choice…
Or was it fate that you opened two? That you had no choice…
M
Mumbles140
Guest
How do you define ‘real’? I had a very real decision between X and Y, and if God knows all, then he knows I had the option of making that choice. Choosing Vanilla over Chocolate doesn’t mean Chocolate isn’t real.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Indeed - and all at once! Along with the fall of Rome!
B
Bookcat
Guest
Lets cease discussing the same thing basically on two threads. Please choose to cease and only use one
Or was it fate that you opened two? That you had no choice…
Or was it fate that you opened two? That you had no choice…
B
Bahman
Guest
By real, I mean that you can choose it.
B
Bahman
Guest
Lets pick this one.Lets cease discussing the same thing basically on two threads. Please choose to cease and only use one
Or was it fate that you opened two? That you had no choice…
B
Bookcat
Guest
From other thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
So I did not have chocolate and vanilla ice cream to choose from?
God sees all that is. Either I had those two in front of me or not.
My above answer remains the same.
God does not see me choosing vanilla -because I choose (present tense) chocolate.
God sees me with the choice -and he sees me make the choice.
Indeed he holds the ice cream and me in existence.
And God sees that we had two threads going and that we have chosen this one to continue in -freely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
So I did not have chocolate and vanilla ice cream to choose from?
God sees all that is. Either I had those two in front of me or not.
My above answer remains the same.
God does not see me choosing vanilla -because I choose (present tense) chocolate.
God sees me with the choice -and he sees me make the choice.
Indeed he holds the ice cream and me in existence.
Nope such would be incorrect. … as I noted already.
And God sees that we had two threads going and that we have chosen this one to continue in -freely.
B
Bahman
Guest
We are talking about choice, what is inside your mind rather than what is outside. Are your choices real?
M
Mumbles140
Guest
So if we established our choices are real, that means I can choose Chocolate or Vanilla, then both must be real at the time I make my choice. And if they are both real, then how does my choice of Chocolate make Vanilla become ‘unreal’ or an illusion?
M
Mumbles140
Guest
Yes, we’ve established (and you have affirmed) that our choices are real. Repeating this question doesn’t aid to the discussion.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes.
First comes option - a thought - chocolate or vanilla? then comes choice. Chocolate. God knows all - sees all.
God knows all - even inside my mind. He knows all that is. He holds all that is in being - even my thoughts and my mind and my free choice. I can choose because God created me with free will.
B
Bahman
Guest
Because from God’s point of view you cannot choose another one, hence the other choice is unreal/illusion. Remember that there is only one God’s sees.
B
Bahman
Guest
But from God point of view, you choose X. How both choices could be real?
- Status