Fate of non-Baptized infants

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mhansen:
My explanation will not satisfy you. Your question assumes that I consider the story of Adam and Eve to be something other than Hebrew mythology.
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That’s fine, but then the God you speak of choosing is no longer the Christian God, for to believe in that God you need to believe that there were humans who sinned (chose other than God) without human interference or theology.
 
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kaymart:
Although there was no formal Baptism of my daughter Meghan Catherine who died 6 1/2 months in my womb (in 1984). I wish for one day to see her, if at all possible. Also that her twin Joe can meet up with her in Heaven some day, after he leads a long and happpy life. I was taught as a child all un-Baptized babies go to Limbo, so I realy do not know truly what will happen to all the babies. But I hold on to that hope that maybe some day…
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I don’t think there is any doubt what so ever that your baby will go to heaven. when a un christianed baby dies it isn’t a question on wether or not he will be in heaven. it’s just a question of when will he enter. technaly. a baby is born with orginal sin, so he is unable to enter heaven. but since orignal sin alone is not enough to enter hell. theres really only leaves two choices. 1 is he is in purgatory. where after a while he is cleansed of the orginal sin then he shall enter heaven. or 2 he may enter heaven straight away through the grace of god. noone can really say. but either way the news is good.
i like to think that choice number two is the correct one.
 
As a Catholic and a maternity tech, is baptism of stillborn infants permitted? I am merely curious. Reading these posts made me think.
~ Kathy ~
 
Here you go, Bro. Rich: It’s Denzinger 693…

**Council of Florence (1438-1445):
**"…the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds." (**Denzinger **693)

There, in effect, is the Church’s teaching of “Limbo.” The word “Limbo” isn’t used. Instead they use the word “Hell,” but are careful to specify that there will be “punishments” of “different kinds.”

I, personally, think that the “punishment” is a life about as comfortable and as uncomfortable as our own, because that seems just.
 
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VociMike:
How does this explain Adam and Eve?
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Simple, I think. Adam and Eve were humans, seduced by the lies of Satan, just like everyone else. They were at an age where they were capable of acting on the free will given them by God. They chose to disobey Him through their human weakness, coerced by the lies of Satan.

The unborn, or infantile, are not yet given the capacity to act of their own free will.

I might be debated, however, if they are incapable in spirit of being seduced by Satan. For it is the spirit that ultimately makes the choice for, or against God. IMHO, the unborn or infantile have the advantage over us in that their spirit is not at odds yet with their flesh, which is not yet developed enough to pull them away from God and act in rebellion.

I’m with VociMike on this: I think they will have a choice.
I’m with Dan-Man: I think extra-sacramental baptism of desire can apply
I’m with VociMike: I don’t think we can logically say “assurance of heaven for infants” without being able to say when that assurance goes away.
I’m with Reen12: we must certainly abide with the Good Shepherd and trust in His perfect Mercy and Love

Peace to you all,
javelin
 
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Katie1723:
As a Catholic and a maternity tech, is baptism of stillborn infants permitted? I am merely curious. Reading these posts made me think…
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The exact instant that death occurs, or, if you prefer, that the death process is complete, can not be exactly defined. We can can know that a person whose heart is beating and who is breathing is definitely alive, and we can know that a corpse in advanced decomposition is definitely dead, but we can not always point to a particular instant on this continuum and say that this is exactly when the soul no longer animated this body.

Is it when breathing and heartbeat cease? When electrical activity in the brain can no longer be detected? Or when all metabolic activity in all body cells ceases? As we can not directly observe or measure the presence or absence of a soul, we have to make the best guess we can whether or not a stillborn child may have completely died. At such times, it is not a bad thing when any doubt exists to err on the side of life and Baptize.

If the child is still alive as recognized by God, even if not recognized by us, then the Sacrament will certainly be effective. If not, God knows our intentions and will not fault us for trying the best we can.
 
Why does the Catholic Church no longer teach limbo? This doctrine seems to make the most sense and best explains the fate of unbaptized infants. It is believed that “infants who die without baptism of any kind do not suffer the punishments of those who die in mortal sin. They may enjoy a certain natural happiness, but they will not enjoy the supernatural happiness in heaven.” The place where they will enjoy this natural happiness is called limbo. Limbo is also believed to be the place where Christ descended to announce to the souls waiting there the joyful news that He had reopened heaven to mankind (this is what we mean when we say that Christ descended into hell).
I wish the Church would rediscover this beautiful doctrine.
 
Anima Christi:
Why does the Catholic Church no longer teach limbo? This doctrine seems to make the most sense and best explains the fate of unbaptized infants. It is believed that “infants who die without baptism of any kind do not suffer the punishments of those who die in mortal sin. They may enjoy a certain natural happiness, but they will not enjoy the supernatural happiness in heaven.” The place where they will enjoy this natural happiness is called limbo. Limbo is also believed to be the place where Christ descended to announce to the souls waiting there the joyful news that He had reopened heaven to mankind (this is what we mean when we say that Christ descended into hell).
I wish the Church would rediscover this beautiful doctrine.
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Just what is so beautiful in a doctrine that teaches “happiness” without God?
 
mhansen,

I agree. I see nothing beautiful about an eternity without being with God.

Since we were created to love Him and be with Him in eternity, there is nothing beautiful about eternal exclusion from Him.

Limbo may be correct and may be true. But Limbo would then constitute an oasis in hell, rather than the Heavenly Kingdom.
Nothing beautiful about hell, no matter how you slice it.
 
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Dan-Man916:
I agree. I see nothing beautiful about an **eternity ** without being with God. … Limbo would then constitute an oasis in hell, rather than the Heavenly Kingdom.
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Good point about eternity.The four last things are: Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell.

At the moment of death, we instantly stand before Jesus for judgment, and then go immediately to heaven, purgatory, or hell.

Purgatory is not among the last things because it is not permanent.

Four Last ThingsIf Purgatory is not among the last things since purgatory is a temporary state, not an eternal state, then neither can their be an eternal limbo of the infants that exists outside of Heaven and Hell. Limbo would indeed have to be part of Hell, not Heaven, because all that attain Heaven see the beatific vision. But how can the Limbo of the Infants be an eternal oasis in Hell? Scripture teaches that at the final judgment, Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Pope John Paul II taught Hell is a state of eternal damnation: Hell is the State of Those who Reject God.

Do aborted infants go straight to Heaven? I don’t think so. If a woman took a meat cleaver to her non-baptized four-year-old child, would Catholics say that the murdered child goes straight to Heaven? Is murdering a non-baptized child that has not yet reached the age of reason a sacrament of salvation for that child?
 
Matt,

*But how can the Limbo of the Infants be an eternal oasis in Hell? Scripture teaches that at the final judgment, Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. *
That is a good point, and one I have not considered.
Isn’t a commission at the Vatican looking into the question of Limbo?
I thought i heard about this somewhere, or maybe was it mentioned in Dominus Iesus?
Anyway, why do you think your statement above was never mentioned by any of the Fathers? I don’t remember seeing this kind of statement before.

Is murdering a non-baptized child that has not yet reached the age of reason a sacrament of salvation for that child?
No of course not. But the act of murder would not be the Sacrament.
The Baptism of desire may serve as the Sacrament.
I don’t understand why you would call any way of death for the child a Sacrament.

As you said before, I also cannot understand how the murderer of the non-baptized child could be given absolution and make it to Heaven and the unbapized murdered child would have no chance.
I simply cannot understand how a loving and merciful God would allow for that. To me, that seems to go against both Mercy and Justice.
 
Matt,

If Limbo is not eternal, then how does one reconcile that with this infallible statement from the Church:

Denzinger 464, "souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
(2nd Lyons, 1274AD)

If Limbo is not eternal, but only temporary as Purgatory is, then it sould seem that the final state of the unbaptized with only original sin would be hell according to 2 Lyons, wouldn’t it?

i don’t know how to reconcile this to John Paul II’s statement that hell is only for those who reject God. Since the unbaptized with original sin only have not even had a chance to accept or reject God, i don’t know how this works out.
 
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Dan-Man916:
Matt,

I don’t understand why you would call any way of death for the child a Sacrament.
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I don’t call it that.

What I am arguing against is the notion that some people have that aborted children go straight to heaven. If that is true, then abortion is a sacrament of salvation for the aborted child. If abortion is a sacrament of salvation, so are the JDAMS that we drop on the non-baptized Iraqi infants and toddlers. The nuclear weapons we detonated over Hiroshima and Nagasaki were sacraments of salvation for the non-baptized Japanese infants and toddlers. The gas chambers of the Nazis …
 
Matt,

Ok, so then how would you reconcile the citation from Denzinger?
 
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Dan-Man916:
Matt,

If Limbo is not eternal, then how does one reconcile that with this infallible statement from the Church:

Denzinger 464, "souls who die in the state of mortal sin or with original sin only immediately descend into hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.”
(2nd Lyons, 1274AD)
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Where does this say that all those who die original sin are condemned to ETERNAL punishment? All it says that those that die in a state of original sin immediately descend to hell (i.e. they go to Sheol, Hades, the abode of the dead). Hell, in this case, does not mean the lake of fire, since the lake of fire is where those who are condemned to eternal death will be sent after the final judgement.

The souls of aborted infants, the souls of non-baptized children that have not yet reached the age of reason that are murdered by men … the souls of these infants and children do not go straight (iimmediately) to heaven. They died in agony, and they are in need of help from the Church Militant so that they can be released from the abode of the dead. This is why we need to pray, offer up our personal sacrifices, obtain indulgences and have Masses said for these poor souls.
 
Matt,

Help me to understand because what you said doesn’t make sense.

*Where does this say that all those who die original sin are condemned to ETERNAL punishment? *
Hell is hell. It is one of the 4 last things. No one leaves hell. If one is in hell, how can they ever get out? Are you inferring that maybe the council of Lyons was stating that they may not spend eternity there?

*All it says that those that die in a state of original sin immediately descend to hell (i.e. they go to Sheol, Hades, the abode of the dead). Hell, in this case, does not mean the lake of fire, since the lake of fire is where those who are condemned to eternal death will be sent after the final judgement. *
I have never heard of this distinction made before, that those who go to hell now, will go to a different place later.
Are you saying that some in hell now may get out of hell and not go to the Lake of fire on the last day?

so that they can be released from the abode of the dead.
Again, why are you making a difference between hell now and hell then. The Lake of fire is eternal hell. Are you saying that those in hell right now are in a temporary hell?

I am not aware of this distinction. When Jesus died, he went to the abode of the dead, hades or hell.
Are you saying that, the unrighteous continued to stay there waiting for Christ’s second coming when they will be thrown into eternal hell, the Lake of Fire.

I am unaware that the Catholic Church teaches 2 kinds of hells.
 
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Matt16_18:
Where does this say that all those who die original sin are condemned to ETERNAL punishment? All it says that those that die in a state of original sin immediately descend to hell (i.e. they go to Sheol, Hades, the abode of the dead). Hell, in this case, does not mean the lake of fire, since the lake of fire is where those who are condemned to eternal death will be sent after the final judgement.

The souls of aborted infants, the souls of non-baptized children that have not yet reached the age of reason that are murdered by men … the souls of these infants and children do not go straight (iimmediately) to heaven. They died in agony, and they are in need of help from the Church Militant so that they can be released from the abode of the dead. This is why we need to pray, offer up our personal sacrifices, obtain indulgences and have Masses said for these poor souls.
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This is getting waaaay too confusing for me. The quote says hell. I take it to mean he meant to say hell. I thought there was only one “hell.” How many are there?

You know the old saying, “If it walks like hell, talks like hell, chances are, it’s hell.” …Or something like that. I think the quote actually uses the word “duck.” 😉

Mike
 
Anima Christi:
Why does the Catholic Church no longer teach limbo?..
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Limbo, in the sense that it has been been discussed here, as the destination for unbaptized infants, has never been officially taught by the Catholic Church as a definite fact. It has been proposed by Catholic philosophers and theologians as a possibility that Catholics are free to accept or not.
Anima Christi:
…I wish the Church would rediscover this beautiful doctrine.
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Limbo, in the sense that it has been been discussed here, as the destination for unbaptized infants, has never been a Doctrine of the Catholic Church, except insofar as Catholics are permitted, but not required, to believe in it.
 
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mhansen:
This is getting waaaay too confusing for me. The quote says hell. I take it to mean he meant to say hell. I thought there was only one “hell.” How many are there?
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“Hell” is Latin for the Greek “Hades” – the abode of the dead. Hell can have various shades of meaning, and depending on the context the word Hell is used in, one could say that scriptures teaches that that some souls dwelling in Hell were living in paradise waiting for the Gates of Heaven to be opened. (The paradise to which Jesus took the good thief was a place in the abode of the dead.) **Catechism of the Catholic Church

633** Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
 
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