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mhansen
Guest
Matt16_18 said:
Thank you, sir! I appreciate you clearing that up.
Mike
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Thank you, sir! I appreciate you clearing that up.
Mike
M
Matt16_18
Guest
One can’t say that every time the word “Hell” appears in a document of the Catholic Church, that one must take that to mean a reference to the lake of fire where the damned suffer the second death for all eternity.
Hell is a Latin word, and Latin is the language that Rome uses in her official documents. Sometimes “Hell” is used in documents of to mean the abode of the dead where those who do not see the beatific vision dwell. That includes those that are eternally damned, and those that are not eternallydamned. When we say in the Creed, that Jesus descended to Hell, we don’t mean that Jesus descended into the lake of fire on Good Friday - we mean that Jesus descended to paradise with St. Dismas.
The English translation of your quote from the Council of Lyons could be translated this way: "souls who die … with original sin only, immediately descend to the abode of the dead …”.
Are you saying that some in hell now may get out of hell and not go to the Lake of fire on the last day?
All I am saying that “hell” sometimes means “the abode of the dead”. Sure, some people that are now in the abode of the dead will not be cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement. The Holy Souls in Purgatory for instance.
The damned dwelling in the abode of the dead will be cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement.Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:11-15 RSVCE
Note that the Douay-Rheims translates “Hades” as “Hell”:
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire.
Rev. 20:13-14 Douay-Rheims
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Ok Matt,
I see what you’re saying.
I’ll have to consider this more.
I see what you’re saying.
I’ll have to consider this more.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
If the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons solemnly defined as a dogma that infants that die in a state of original sin are condemned to eternity in hell, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The CCC would simply state what was solemnly defined at the Second Council of Lyons.
Of course, if you are a Feeneyite that sees Vatican II as a conspiracy to destroy the church …
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Matt,
If the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons solemnly defined as a dogma that infants that die in a state of original sin are condemned to eternity in hell,
Right, and it doesn’t say that. However, it uses one word for hell to describe both those in mortal sin and those in original sin only.
it does not say, those who die in original sin, descend immediately into hades, and those who die in mortal sin immediately descend into hell. It combines 2 subjects with one verb.
Now does it imply a separation of different hells?
I think this is an open theological question open for development by the Church.
However, I am still personally inclined to think that Baptism of desire applies here. However, i am no theologian, and never claimed to be. I do hope that the Commission does publish something on this in our life time. I would really like to know what the Church says.
If the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons solemnly defined as a dogma that infants that die in a state of original sin are condemned to eternity in hell,
Right, and it doesn’t say that. However, it uses one word for hell to describe both those in mortal sin and those in original sin only.
it does not say, those who die in original sin, descend immediately into hades, and those who die in mortal sin immediately descend into hell. It combines 2 subjects with one verb.
Now does it imply a separation of different hells?
I think this is an open theological question open for development by the Church.
However, I am still personally inclined to think that Baptism of desire applies here. However, i am no theologian, and never claimed to be. I do hope that the Commission does publish something on this in our life time. I would really like to know what the Church says.
M
mhansen
Guest
It’s just a play on words, if you ask me.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
Whoa! Second Lyons does indeed say that those who die in a state of “original sin only” descend immediately to Hell (i.e. Hades, the abode of the dead).
The abode of the dead is where we receive our particular judgement. Those who die in unrepentant mortal sin will receive their particular judgement in the abode of the dead, and they know that they will be spending eternity in the lake of fire after the resurrection of the dead.
Those who died in a state of “original sin only” will also go to the abode of the dead for their particular judgement. They will know after their particular judgment if they are eternally damned, or if they will enter Heaven.
The good thief and Judas both descended to hell on the same day. But Judas wasn’t going to the paradise in the abode of the dead with Jesus and St. Dismas. Judas was going some place else in the abode of the dead.
J
Joseph_Bilodeau
Guest
Matt16_18 said:
Actually, it isn’t. The Modern English “hell” derives from the Old English “hel”, which in turn derives from the earlier norse/germanic “hel”.
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Matt16_18
Guest
Joseph Bilodeau:
It has only been very recently in the history of English that the term [hell] has taken on the exclusive meaning of the place of the damned. In fact, when the King James Version was being translated, it was still used in its broader sense of the place of the dead. Thus we read the King James Bible discussing Jesus’ soul being in hell:
Thank you for that correction. A language scholar I am not!
It has only been very recently in the history of English that the term [hell] has taken on the exclusive meaning of the place of the damned. In fact, when the King James Version was being translated, it was still used in its broader sense of the place of the dead. Thus we read the King James Bible discussing Jesus’ soul being in hell:"[David,] seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his [Christ’s] soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses" (Acts 2:31-32).
Twentieth-century translations have the problem of how to deal with the fact that now the word “hell” means to most people “the place of the damned” and so to avoid implying Jesus went there, they use a different term when rendering this verse.
The Revised Standard Version transliterates the Greek word used here and speaks of “hades.” This Greek term, like the original meaning of the word “hell,” simply meant the place of the dead. Unfortunately, also like the word “hell,” the word “hades” has also taken on the connotation (but not quite as strongly) of being the place of the damned.
To sidestep this, the New International Version says Jesus was not abandoned to “the grave,” but this isn’t very satisfactory either because the Greek word “hades” meant more than “the grave.” It meant the netherworld.
This problem of references to the netherworld taking on connotations of the place of the damned has happened elsewhere, too. Originally, the Latin word infernum simply meant “the lower region” and was also used as a reference to the place of the dead. It, too, or rather its English derivative – inferno – has also acquired the firey connotations of the place of the damned, though these were lacking in its original use.
The only ancient language term I know of that this hasn’t happened to is the Hebrew word sheol, which (since it hasn’t been known to most English speakers) still simply means the place of the dead. The Revised Standard Version took the bold step of using this word when it appears in the Old Testament, but even though it is the Hebrew word that the Greek New Testament renders using hades, the RSV translators did not see fit to use it in the New Testament. If they had, it would have cut through the negative connotations associated with hell, hades, and inferno, but at the price of confronting the English-speaking reader with a totally unfamiliar word used in familiar New Testament passages.
cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm]The Internet Question Box
Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman that is, Mediterranean belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold.
Dictionary.com
Twentieth-century translations have the problem of how to deal with the fact that now the word “hell” means to most people “the place of the damned” and so to avoid implying Jesus went there, they use a different term when rendering this verse.
The Revised Standard Version transliterates the Greek word used here and speaks of “hades.” This Greek term, like the original meaning of the word “hell,” simply meant the place of the dead. Unfortunately, also like the word “hell,” the word “hades” has also taken on the connotation (but not quite as strongly) of being the place of the damned.
To sidestep this, the New International Version says Jesus was not abandoned to “the grave,” but this isn’t very satisfactory either because the Greek word “hades” meant more than “the grave.” It meant the netherworld.
This problem of references to the netherworld taking on connotations of the place of the damned has happened elsewhere, too. Originally, the Latin word infernum simply meant “the lower region” and was also used as a reference to the place of the dead. It, too, or rather its English derivative – inferno – has also acquired the firey connotations of the place of the damned, though these were lacking in its original use.
The only ancient language term I know of that this hasn’t happened to is the Hebrew word sheol, which (since it hasn’t been known to most English speakers) still simply means the place of the dead. The Revised Standard Version took the bold step of using this word when it appears in the Old Testament, but even though it is the Hebrew word that the Greek New Testament renders using hades, the RSV translators did not see fit to use it in the New Testament. If they had, it would have cut through the negative connotations associated with hell, hades, and inferno, but at the price of confronting the English-speaking reader with a totally unfamiliar word used in familiar New Testament passages.
cin.org/users/james/questions/q103.htm]The Internet Question Box
Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman that is, Mediterranean belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold.
Dictionary.com
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Dan-Man916
Guest
Matt,
I’m sorry if you think i’m being difficult. I’m just trying to understand this better.
*Whoa! Second Lyons does indeed say that those who die in a state of “original sin only” descend immediately to Hell (i.e. Hades, the abode of the dead).
The abode of the dead is where we receive our particular judgement. Those who die in unrepentant mortal sin will receive their particular judgement in the abode of the dead, and they know that they will be spending eternity in the lake of fire after the resurrection of the dead.
*
So, does this mean, then, that when everyone dies, they all descend into “hell” the abode of the dead. The saved then go to Heaven and the damned await there to be thrown into the Lake of fire, which is the eternal hell.
Is that correct?
And if so, why is this the first time i am learning about this?
I have never really seen any catechisms make the clear distinction.
I’m sorry if you think i’m being difficult. I’m just trying to understand this better.
*Whoa! Second Lyons does indeed say that those who die in a state of “original sin only” descend immediately to Hell (i.e. Hades, the abode of the dead).
The abode of the dead is where we receive our particular judgement. Those who die in unrepentant mortal sin will receive their particular judgement in the abode of the dead, and they know that they will be spending eternity in the lake of fire after the resurrection of the dead.
*
So, does this mean, then, that when everyone dies, they all descend into “hell” the abode of the dead. The saved then go to Heaven and the damned await there to be thrown into the Lake of fire, which is the eternal hell.
Is that correct?
And if so, why is this the first time i am learning about this?
I have never really seen any catechisms make the clear distinction.
M
Matt16_18
Guest
No, because some people do not go immediately to heaven when they die, and yet they are still not living among the damned in the abode of the dead waiting for the final judgement. There are the souls of the dead that are still earth bound (ghosts) that need to be released from earth. There are the souls that are in the different levels of purgatory, and there are the souls of the infants and children that died without baptism. Perhaps there are righteous souls in Abraham’s bosom waiting instruction on the true faith (the righteous ones that have reached the age of reason that died in invincible ignorance of the true faith). Life in the abode of the dead (hell) is not the same experience for every person.
Please read what the CCC says about Jesus’ decent into hell (CCC 631 – 637), especially CCC 633.
Chapter 59, “A Detached Account of the Descent into Hell”, from the book The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, has an interesting description of the Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s vision of Jesus’ descent into Hell.
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cargopilot
Guest
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gifHaving lost a child shortly after birth, who died un-baptized, I can only pray that she went directly to Heaven.
B
BibleReader
Guest
If she did not, cargopilot – I lost a little girl, 1 week before her due date, to a cord accident, by the way – I think that “Limbo” is about as comfortable and as uncomfortable as Earth – not a bad deal.
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Pius_X
Guest
There is a tradition in the Catholic Church in Ireland that the babys are baptized by God with the rain water. God is merciful. Does he send aborted babys to hell? I think not.
P
Pius_X
Guest
CargoPilot, my parents lost a baby at birth too. (My older sister) I believe the umbilico cord got wrapped around her neck.
P
PB777
Guest
I wonder if the concept of "Baptism of Desire’ - that of the parents, in this case - could apply here. Any thoughts out there on this?
B
BibleReader
Guest
Hi, PB.
I wondered that, too. I.e., since I had “batismal intent” when I baptized my little one seconds after she was stillborn, would God, out of the generosity of His wonderful heart, “backdate” my baptism to the day before, when little Rachel probably died?
I fear not.
R
Rebecca_New
Guest
I heard someone say that the Old Testament is about God’s justice and the New Testament is about God’s Mercy through His Son, Jesus Christ. St. Augustine said that there is no salvation without Baptism, but else where clarified that there is a “Baptism of Desire” possibility. It just has to be Our Blessed Mother’s intercession for the infants and children that are not Baptized. Every baby is surrounded in fluid in the womb, and tears are fluid. Since tears are associated with Mary, maybe the tears of Our Heavenly Mother will cover the innocent, and console the parents also.
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mhansen
Guest
Rebecca New:
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again here: God is love. Unconditional love. Since WE don’t have that, we can’t fathom it. It doesn’t change the fact that this is precisely what God is. For all those out there doubting whether their children have gone to Heaven, consider this, please. Don’t let words on paper (doctrines, dogmas) be your “God.” Let God be your God and you will never doubt again.
Mike
Perhaps it’s the tears of God Himself who baptizes these infants. Tears caused by the grief we’ve given Him by even CONSIDERING that He would send these children to “hell.” How terrible He must feel that we’ve let doctrines and dogmas take priority over His love and mercy.
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again here: God is love. Unconditional love. Since WE don’t have that, we can’t fathom it. It doesn’t change the fact that this is precisely what God is. For all those out there doubting whether their children have gone to Heaven, consider this, please. Don’t let words on paper (doctrines, dogmas) be your “God.” Let God be your God and you will never doubt again.
Mike
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Malachi4U
Guest
Br. Rich SFO:
I believe that God is merciful. That is Faith.
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