Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants

[Seeking12]

(Edited)

Secondly, show me where in the Bible, that a person receives 100% saving grace from God at one time.

God Bless you

**
You claim to know the Savior; tell me how you came to know this Savior, then I will show you why you don’t and therefore my statement will stand as correct.

Try not to take it personally; I have a love and heart for you that you cannot know; i want to see all of you in heaven…all of you. I know I cannot convert, all I can do is present the truth of God; and He will do what He chooses; but I pray He will have mercy.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

**
James, now I know I’m right and heaven is in agreement you are bound in your sin at this point of your life. You just described, in great detail, a works salvation. Look how many times you used the term “one must”; you have it all wrong. In addition; you said one must obey the Church teaching. One must perform acts of mercy. You are so blind James and you are not set free from the bondage of sin and the accompanying wrath of God.

James, if you really want to be saved, then realize what a filthy piece of scum you are before a Holy God, like the poor tax collector, turn away from your sin and turn to Jesus as King and Savior, believe God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. It is by Gods grace though faith in Jesus alone.

May God have mercy on you James; I mean that from the deepest pit of my heart.**

You will soon be banned for your bigotry and slanderous manner Seeking12. May we expect you back as Seeking13 or is this your last persona we shall know you under?

James

 

[Seeking12]

The sacraments are the means by which we are given to access God’s grace. Jesus often used everyday items to cure people and perform miracles, .e.g, wine, spitting in mud, etc. So yes, they increase grace, but probably not in the way you are thinking. I’m not sure I understand what your definition of the word “grace” is…

Of course we must receive them for Salvation. Baptism, first and foremost, and Holy Communion at least once a year. Confession should be much more often of course. I don’t know about Confirmation, Matrimony and Holy Orders aren’t required, and Sacrament of the Sick is certainly desired, but I’m not sure about required. Did I miss any?

Well of course!

Half right. You can certainly lose your salvation through mortal sin. You can be restored by the power of Jesus through penance. The power is not in our actions, we simply choose to repent and accept his grace. There’s that word again!

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Jesus certainly set up his Church with full authority. Jesus also condemned those who say “Lord, Lord”, but refuse to follow him and do the will of the Father, as I recall.

Grace is an unmerited gift from God. We can choose to accept it or reject it. There are consequences either way.

**Grace is unmerited favor; it is a gift from God to His elect. This is much different than blessing. Sacraments give “access” to God’s grace, then why the heck did Christ die on a cross? You cannot work your way to God; you also have now stated a works salvation. Those works being defined by the Catholic Church in cooperation with Jesus. :banghead:

If you just stuck to your last statement; you would be in the right path; but as it is you are on the broad road with the rest of those who put their faith in their religion or their religion plus Jesus.**

 

[Seeking12]

You will soon be banned for your bigotry and slanderous manner Seeking12. May we expect you back as Seeking13 or is this your last persona we shall know you under?

James

James; you can’t take the heat; so now you will tattle or have already. How weak is your faith; can you not defend it? Isn’t that why you are here.

 

[stephraim]

**
You claim to know the Savior; tell me how you came to know this Savior, then I will show you why you don’t and therefore my statement will stand as correct.

Try not to take it personally; I have a love and heart for you that you cannot know; i want to see all of you in heaven…all of you. I know I cannot convert, all I can do is present the truth of God; and He will do what He chooses; but I pray He will have mercy.**

The Catholic Church has God’s Truth. He presented it to His Apostles who in turn, presented it to other men in continuous succession. The Paraclete then lead them into all truth whenever difficulties in doctrine arose. Why would we abandon God’s Truth?

We want to see you in heaven as well.

 

[MarcoPolo]

James, if you really want to be saved, then realize what a filthy piece of scum you are

Shall I be attracted to this brand of Christianity?..

 

[guanophore]

Do you agree you must receive the Sacraments toward salvation and that those sacraments increase grace?

Sacraments are sensible forms through which God’s grace flows. They are the primary avenue through which He ordained that we access grace. God is not bound by them - He can dispense grace however He wants, and save whoever He likes! What He has done is provide us a manner in which we can confidently approach the throne of grace, and find mercy to help in time of need.

Those that receive grace open themselves for more grace. To the one that has, more will be given!

Are they not considered meritorious?

I have never heard of this.

Since the sacraments are a channel through which grace flows, it seems that, though we do benefit from them, we do not “earn” anything. We can, by our disposition, be more open and receptive to grace. This can be the result of discipline, such as fasting and prayer. I suppose you could say such spiritual practices are “meritorious”

Do you also agree you can lose your salvation via mortal sin; yet through your action of penance can be restored?

I think this is a poor way to explain it. The Apostles taught that we did not obtain salvation in this present life. Therefore, it is possible to fall away, and be cut off from Christ through sin. The mature attitude is to hold fast to what we have attained, which we do not do if we are in mortal sin.

If you say yes to any of these, than grace is no longer grace because now it is Jesus plus, which is another gospel.

No. However, I can understand how it seems that way to you, since you do not understand what the Church teaches. Having many avenues to access God’s grace in no way “nullifies” his grace.

It is also wrong to say “plus”, since we can only access these graces BECAUSE of Christ. It is part of the fullness of salvation.

 

[ppasa316]

In numbers 5:7-10, it explicitly tells us to confess our sins to one another. We do that by confessing to a priest. The priest can’t forgive us our sins because he has no authority to do so. God forgives our sins though. In penance we do confess and discuss our sins with God on a one on one basis. The confessing of sins is for spiritual healing.

This passage doesn’t say we need to confess our sins to a priest for forgiveness. It is talking about making restitution to the one that we have trespassed against.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This passage doesn’t say we need to confess our sins to a priest for forgiveness. It is talking about making restitution to the one that we have trespassed against.

If you look at the rest of scripture you will see that we are required to confess our sins to each other. The general apostolic authority of “loosing and binding” gave the bishops the authority to judge by what critera one could be released from sin. In general the objective is to give the benefit of the doubt on sincerity but they still have the authority to establish and change the critera for forgivness. Over the years the disciplines were changed from public confession to private confession so as not to embarrass people the point of holding back anything that might prevent them from full repentance. The priest now represents the entire Church rather than making it public.

Read these scriptures:

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, note here that there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

More here: scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

James

 

[tobinatorstark]

This passage doesn’t say we need to confess our sins to a priest for forgiveness. It is talking about making restitution to the one that we have trespassed against.

examine this from Numbers 5:7-10
They shall confess their sin, and restore the principal itself, and the fifth part over and above, to him against whom they have sinned. 8 But if there be no one to receive it, they shall give it to the Lord, and it shall be the priest’s, besides the ram that is offered for expiation, to be an atoning sacrifice. 9 All the firstfruits also, which the children of Israel offer, belong to the priest: 10 And whatsoever is offered into the sanctuary by every one, and is delivered into the hands of the priest, it shall be his.

just curious what Bible verson do you read and what does Numbers 5:7-10 say in your Bible. This does mentione to confess to confess sins to the priest. Again the priest cannot forgive the sins, but God can and he does. Confession does go according to this among other passages

BTW here is what the Protestant KJV says about confessing sins

Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the LORD, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.
And every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring unto the priest, shall be his. And every man’s hallowed things shall be his: whatsoever any man giveth the priest, it shall be his.

 

[tobinatorstark]

This passage doesn’t say we need to confess our sins to a priest for forgiveness. It is talking about making restitution to the one that we have trespassed against.

resititution is called forgiveness and penance

 

[ppasa316]

People need to confess to a priest because that is the way Jesus established. Take a look at John 20:22-23. Jesus appeared to the apostles, the first priests, and breathed on them imparting the Holy Spirit. Then He tells them that whoever’s sins they forgive are forgiven and the ones they don’t are not forgiven. Why would Jesus say that if He did not intend us to confess to a priest? Short answer, He wouldn’t. How could they forgive or not forgive unless we confessed to them? We confess our sins to a priest because that is what Jesus wants us to do. In light of that, why would anyone not want to do so? Short answer, we shouldn’t.

When you step into the confessional, it is not the priest forgiving your sins. He is there to represent Jesus. At the end the pries says “I absolve you in the name of Jesus Christ,” not his own name. Many non-Catholics believe that the Catholic Church does not believe that Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man. They are wrong. It is only through Jesus that we have any hope of being reconciled. That does not mean that we can’t pray for each other or otherwise help each other along the narrow path that leads to salvation.

Regarding salvation by faith alone, this is a false doctrine introduced by Martin Luther. He altered the text of his German translation of Rom 3:28 to reflect this false belief. (Read his letter to his friend, Dr. Link, where he claims the authority to alter Scripture.)

The only place in the entire Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is James 2:24 and it says there that we are not saved by faith alone. The Bible could not possibly be any clearer on this point. If you believe we are saved by faith alone, you are holding to unscriptural teaching. This does not mean that faith does not play a role in our salvation; it most certainly does.

Gary

Jn 20:22-23 is not to be interpreted to mean that Jesus gave to a select body of people the right to forgive sins and let people into heaven. The correct understanding from the Greek text should be translated as “Whosoever sins you remit (forgive) shall have already been forgiven them, and whosoever sins you retain (do not forgive) shall have already not been forgiven them.” The disciples dor any one else do not forgive sins. They proclaimed forgiveness on the basis of the message of the Gospel. Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only.” This passage does not say we need to go to a priest because the sinner who repents to God has already been forgiven.
Eph 2:8 is pretty clear when it says “For by grace you have been saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast.”
As for James 2:24 You need to go back a few verses where the Word of God speaks of Abraham’s faith. By faith (He was already justified by faith) he was justified before God and his righteousness declared; by works he was justified before men and his righteousness demonstrated. Warren Wiersbe puts it this way “Dynamic faith obeys God and proves itself in daily life and works.” Again you are saved by faith; works complements your faith.

 

[ppasa316]

If you look at the rest of scripture you will see that we are required to confess our sins to each other. The general apostolic authority of “loosing and binding” gave the bishops the authority to judge by what critera one could be released from sin. In general the objective is to give the benefit of the doubt on sincerity but they still have the authority to establish and change the critera for forgivness. Over the years the disciplines were changed from public confession to private confession so as not to embarrass people the point of holding back anything that might prevent them from full repentance. The priest now represents the entire Church rather than making it public.

Read these scriptures:

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, note here that there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

More here: scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

James

In short James 5:16 that he is talking about are among the saints. He was was not suggesting confessing our sins to a preacher or priest. We confess our sins first of all to the Lord I Jn 1:9 this is pretty clear. But we must also confess them to those who have been affected by them.

 

[ppasa316]

examine this from Numbers 5:7-10
They shall confess their sin, and restore the principal itself, and the fifth part over and above, to him against whom they have sinned. 8 But if there be no one to receive it, they shall give it to the Lord, and it shall be the priest’s, besides the ram that is offered for expiation, to be an atoning sacrifice. 9 All the firstfruits also, which the children of Israel offer, belong to the priest: 10 And whatsoever is offered into the sanctuary by every one, and is delivered into the hands of the priest, it shall be his.

just curious what Bible verson do you read and what does Numbers 5:7-10 say in your Bible. This does mentione to confess to confess sins to the priest. Again the priest cannot forgive the sins, but God can and he does. Confession does go according to this among other passages

BTW here is what the Protestant KJV says about confessing sins

Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.But if the man have no kinsman to recompense the trespass unto, let the trespass be recompensed unto the LORD, even to the priest; beside the ram of the atonement, whereby an atonement shall be made for him.
And every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring unto the priest, shall be his. And every man’s hallowed things shall be his: whatsoever any man giveth the priest, it shall be his.

No where in this passage do i read that one must confess their sins to any one. It is talking about making restitution. NKJV

 

[ppasa316]

resititution is called forgiveness and penance

 

[tobinatorstark]

No where in this passage do i read that one must confess their sins to any one. It is talking about making restitution. NKJV

the NKJV on confessing sins

then he shall confess the sin which he has committed. He shall make restitution for his trespass in full, plus one-fifth of it, and give it to the one he has wronged.But if the man has no relative to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution for the wrong must go to the LORD for the priest, in addition to the ram of the atonement with which atonement is made for him.Every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring to the priest, shall be his.And every man’s holy things shall be his; whatever any man gives the priest shall be his."’

But obviously you refuse to read the other post that someone else made about confessing sins to one another

Commentary on Numbers 5:7-10 from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 7. Shall confess. This confession and satisfaction, ordained in the old law, was a figure of the sacrament of penance. (Challoner) — A special confession of their sin, with satisfaction, and a sacrifice, are required. So Christ orders us to lay open our consciences to his priests, St. John. xx., &c. (Worthington)

Ver. 8. But if. Moses does not mention this case, Leviticus vi. 2, 5. Here he determines that the heirs, if known, must be entitled to the restitution. A Hebrew could not die without an heir; but a proselyte might, and then restitution was to be made to God. The Rabbins say, that when the person injured was already dead, the offender took 10 persons with him to the grave of the deceased, and said, “I have sinned against the Lord and against. N.; I have injured him thus.” After which he gave what was due to his heirs; or, if none could be found, to the house of judgment or the judges, who might restore it, if any claimant appeared afterwards.

Ver. 9. First-fruits; (teruman,) a term which comprises also voluntary oblations of all sorts, and the parts of the victims which belong to the priests; unless the person offering expressed a different intention. (Calmet)

Point, set, match

 

[tobinatorstark]

What you don’t know the definition of restitution??? I am sorry :crying: I know what the Church teaches us and I won’t back down.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Mark 2:7 “Who can forgive sins but God only.” This passage does not say we need to go to a priest because the sinner who repents to God has already been forgiven…

I addressed this for you already in post #21, bold emphasis added:

This is off topic, but is the way Christ ordained it. The veil torn signified the end of the Old Covenant authorities, which is fulfilled in the New. A ministerial priesthood remains, and is why NT Scripture talks about presbyters and bishops. All of this flows from Christ. It is not a priest instead of Christ, but it is Christ through the priest.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Scripture tells us:
The Pharisees asked who but God can forgive sins. They were correct, only God could. And Jesus said all authority on earth had been given to Him. And He also told His apostles that as the Father sent Him, so He sent them. Which means Christ’s power to forgive sins is done so through His ministers. It IS Christ operating through His Church.

 

[CentralFLJames]

In short James 5:16 that he is talking about are among the saints. He was was not suggesting confessing our sins to a preacher or priest. We confess our sins first of all to the Lord I Jn 1:9 this is pretty clear. But we must also confess them to those who have been affected by them.

So am I to conclude that God explicitly meant to exclude priest, deacons and bishops from among His saints? When James is speaking of "confessing our sins to “one another” that any priest should be avoided since a priest can not be a saint?

[Sign]Please…
[/SIGN]

James

 

[MarcoPolo]

The correct understanding from the Greek text should be translated as “Whosoever sins you remit (forgive) shall have already been forgiven them, and whosoever sins you retain (do not forgive) shall have already not been forgiven them.”

According to whom? I searched 13 different Protestant Bible translations and not a single one of them translates this verse as “already been forgiven.” Not even the very literal King James or Standard Versions.