"Father, forgive them, for they not know", but

[DanielJT]

I will try, in the ten minutes that I have, to restate my question. Let’s look at Peter. He knows Jesus is the Son of Godm therefore he doesn’t want him to die like this. Wel, this is not the right way to think, says Jesus, because I am here to give my life. Ok

Then, when he is giving his life, the ones killing him should be forgiven. But aren’t the ones who want him killed follow the plan of salvation more than Peter, without knowing what they do? So why is this to be forgiven?

This is such a cool question. It reminds me of the questions that often surround Judas, his part in the plan, and his fate. After all, when you look at it, Judas was almost a type of catalyst for this great sacrifice, and yet tradition marks him as a great betrayal.

And we can both agree that, being a close apostle to Christ and (presumably) a trusted friend, what Judas did was a betrayal.

But in God’s great wisdom, he was able to take what was ugly and sinful (Judas’ betrayal) and bring out beauty and grace from the situation.

Judas - just like all those who followed in the crucifixion - had his own intentions and his own free-will in the situation. And isn’t this a measure of sin - right intent and right action? Not just the end result.

God allows us all to make poor choices because He gave us free-will, a great gift and responsibility which often goes abused. God’s will does not interfere with this gift because that would mean taking away the gift all together. But God does not will for all He created that he deemed good and beautiful (including our future where we place our hope) to become soiled by our imperfect wills. God is able to take our poor intentions and poor actions and turn them to His right “ends”.

Despite our misuse of free-will, God is still able to protect and guide us, give us grace.

I am an example of this - I abandoned God at an early age and according to my sins should have been completely cut off from His grace (because that’s what sin does). But God, be more powerful then any sin, was able to enter into my life, guide me, and bring me back.

The Crucifixion story teaches us this idea of God’s ability to “make all things new” in every way. God took the intentions of all those people participating in the slaughter of His Only Son and turned it into their redemption, if only they could accept, first, what they had done and recognize it as wrong (based on intent and action), and second, accept that Christ still lives, forgives, and redeems.

I was hoping to make this concise. This topic is so interesting, though. What do you think?

 

[Nita]

I don’t see how this responds my question, the eternal now has nothing to do with my question, nor prescience or predestination. But simply, because in the Gospels we have Jesus saying He needs to die, and then asking for forgiveness for the people who put HIm to death, it seems odd. Doesn’t “for they know not” imply that if they had known what they were doing, they wouldn’t have killed Him? But then what is the option? Making Him King, and this is not what Jesus wanted. Jesus came to sacrifice himself, among other things, so why asking for forgiveness for something He came to do freely? If the death was needed and freely chosen, how is putting Him to death a sin which can be held against them?

It’s important to note that Jesus is asking forgiveness for the **Roman soldiers ** and the not Jews who had called out for His crucifixion. They were carrying out a duty required by their job and probably had very little knowledge, if any, about Jesus. Thus Jesus’ words “…they know not what they do.”

 

[Nita]

I’d like to add this: that it seems odd; either way. When Peter says Jesus shouldn’t die, Jesus rebukes him. So I would think here Peter sinned. OK then…

Re Peter: It’s good to have the actual text handy.

Matt. 16:16-23 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
……
Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that **he must **go to Jerusalem and **suffer greatly **from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and **be killed **and on the third day be raised.
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”
He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God, but as human beings do.​

Peter’s failure was not that he wanted Jesus to live and not die. Rather, it was that he was challenging the truth and/or wisdom of Jesus’ words. (Jesus said He “must”…suffer…be killed”; Peter said “no such thing shall ever happen”.) And this right after Peter had acknowledged Jesus’ deity!!
That is what Satan did (rejected/challenged God’s superiority); thus Our Lord’s words, “Get behind me, Satan.” The words challenging God are what Satan would spout.

Peter’s words however were not motivated by a desire to challenge God’s wisdom and superiority, but out of a human love for our Lord and human reasoning and desire. Thus, Jesus’ words: “you are thinking not as God but as a human being.”

We don’t know whether Peter sinned; Jesus never said he did.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Judas was almost a type of catalyst for this great sacrifice, and yet tradition marks him as a great betrayal.

I am not sure we can place much blame on Judas, after all, Jesus died for you, me and everyone else

 

[MarcoPG]

Re Peter: It’s good to have the actual text handy.

Matt. 16:16-23 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
……
Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that **he **must go to Jerusalem and **suffer greatly **from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and **be killed **and on the third day be raised.
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”
He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God, but as human beings do.​

Peter’s failure was not that he wanted Jesus to live and not die. Rather, it was that he was challenging the truth and/or wisdom of Jesus’ words. (Jesus said He “must”…suffer…be killed”; Peter said “no such thing shall ever happen”.) And this right after Peter had acknowledged Jesus’ deity!!
That is what Satan did (rejected/challenged God’s superiority); thus Our Lord’s words, “Get behind me, Satan.” The words challenging God are what Satan would spout.

Peter’s words however were not motivated by a desire to challenge God’s wisdom and superiority, but out of a human love for our Lord and human reasoning and desire. Thus, Jesus’ words: “you are thinking not as God but as a human being.”

We don’t know whether Peter sinned; Jesus never said he did.

I mentioned this in the op

 

[Nita]

I mentioned this in the op

I guess then I’m not understanding/interpreting exactly what you are having difficulty understanding.

Is it a difficulty in seeing a consistency in what seem to be 2 contradictory responses by Our Lord in regards to His sacrificial death?
To Roman executioners: “Forgive them…” - implies carrying out (wanting?) His execution is a sin
and
To Peter: “Get behind me Satan…” - implies not wanting His execution is a sin

Or is it difficulty in seeing how there could be any sin involved on the part of those who participated in having Him crucified — since He, Jesus/God, willed and desired it for our redemption?

 

[MarcoPG]

I guess then I’m not understanding/interpreting exactly what you are having difficulty understanding.

Is it a difficulty in seeing a consistency in what seem to be 2 contradictory responses by Our Lord in regards to His sacrificial death?
To Roman executioners: “Forgive them…” - implies carrying out (wanting?) His execution is a sin
and
To Peter: “Get behind me Satan…” - implies not wanting His execution is a sin

Or is it difficulty in seeing how there could be any sin involved on the part of those who participated in having Him crucified — since He, Jesus/God, willed and desired it for our redemption?

I didn’t man to say that Peter sinned, but that was Peter was proposing wasn’t according to God plan. So it was wrong. Now, with this in mind, I was wondering how Jesus’ death is to be imputed as a sin on the Jews, if it is according to God’s plan that all this happened. Since it was according to God’s plan that Jesus offered Himself and was killed, why should the Father forgive them?
But then I could solve it, or at least I have an acceptable understanding of it. Thank you

 

[Nita]

I didn’t man to say that Peter sinned, but that was Peter was proposing wasn’t according to God plan. So it was wrong. Now, with this in mind, I was wondering how Jesus’ death is to be imputed as a sin on the Jews, if it is according to God’s plan that all this happened.

It was a sin because, out of envy, they deliberately desired and instigated the killing of a man who they knew was innocent of any crime. That is always a sin - both the envy to the point of hatred and the actions to have an innocent person killed. It is serious sin regardless of how God chooses to use it in His overall plan.

It’s important not to confuse God’s allowing something to happen with God’s causing/forcing something to happen. If God had taken away their ability to choose and supernaturally somehow caused them to seek Jesus’ death, then they would have been without sin.

Since it was according to God’s plan that Jesus offered Himself and was killed, why should the Father forgive them?

We don’t know if the Father forgave the Jews. Jesus wasn’t asking forgiveness for the Jews who sought His death. He was asking forgiveness for the pagan Romans who were carrying out their orders to crucify Him.

We don’t know whether or not the Jews who sought His death later repented and sought forgiveness. If they did, then God would of course forgive them. That is why He died - so that sinners could be redeemed.

But then I could solve it, or at least I have an acceptable understanding of it. Thank you

Hope maybe some of the above will help.

 

[Wesrock]

Sure, but that death of the just is what was needed, so how is this a sin?

God can turn great evil to good. That does not justify the evil, or negate the responsibility of those who choose to do evil of their own free will.

 

[grannymh]

Hello,
I was wondering how to understand the fact that Jesus’ death was needed for our redemption, and it was Jesus’ sacrifice, not merely an execution.
So: why could this sacrifice ever be held as a sin, which have to be forgiven by God?

If Jesus’ crucifixion was itself a sin on the part of some of the jewish leaders, how could this “sin” take all sins away?
It sounds like if the people had known, they would have stopped Jesus, since it is better for them not to sin. But then this is no better than Peter, which was called Satan for this.

So, my view is this: Jesus’ sacrifice in itself is no sin, because it is His choice; it is the greatest grace. It is the reasons why the ones who wanted to kill him had that makes it a great sin on their part.

Is it clear enough to respond to this difficulty that is Jesus’ death = “sin by the Jews” but keeping Jesus from suffering = sin as well ?
Is it correct to think if we had known, we would have wanted Jesus to die anyway for us (pretty much like what the Virgin would have thought, i guess).

Thank you for reading my elucubrations

Please, a small question.
Are you familiar with the Catholic doctrines on Original Sin and the union of the divine and human natures of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity? In my humble opinion, that kind of information may be helpful in understanding Jesus Christ hanging bloody on His chosen cross.

 

[MarcoPG]

Please, a small question.
Are you familiar with the Catholic doctrines on Original Sin and the union of the divine and human natures of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity? In my humble opinion, that kind of information may be helpful in understanding Jesus Christ hanging bloody on His chosen cross.

Yes I am. My question is not about the free choice of Christ, nor the hypostatic union.

 

[grannymh]

Yes I am. My question is not about the free choice of Christ, nor the hypostatic union.

Here is the question I was working with. It is the first question in post 1.
“I was wondering how to understand the fact that Jesus’ death was needed for our redemption, and it was Jesus’ sacrifice, not merely an execution.
So: why could this sacrifice ever be held as a sin, which have to be forgiven by God?”

The needed obedience of Jesus unto death repaired the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity aka Original Sin. Once that is established, then it is easier to examine the personal sins (possibly pride, greed, anger, etc.) of those who nailed Jesus to the cross. As we learn in the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation, we sinners need to seek God’s mercy and forgiveness.

Actually, recognizing the complete role of Jesus affirms a lot of what was said in post 1. Here is an additional thought. Because Jesus was True God and True Man, He conquered death by dying.

 

[MarcoPG]

Here is the question I was working with. It is the first question in post 1.
“I was wondering how to understand the fact that Jesus’ death was needed for our redemption, and it was Jesus’ sacrifice, not merely an execution.
So: why could this sacrifice ever be held as a sin, which have to be forgiven by God?”

The needed obedience of Jesus unto death repaired the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity aka Original Sin. Once that is established, then it is easier to examine the personal sins (possibly pride, greed, anger, etc.) of those who nailed Jesus to the cross. As we learn in the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation, we sinners need to seek God’s mercy and forgiveness.

Actually, recognizing the complete role of Jesus affirms a lot of what was said in post 1. Here is an additional thought. Because Jesus was True God and True Man, He conquered death by dying.

My question was on why Jesus asks forgiveness for the Jews, since it was needed, whereas Peter also sins when he says that Jesus shouldn’t die. Both cannot be.

If you take this part of the post, you may think it is about Jesus’ death. But actually I talk about the sin of the Jews, or anyone’s sin as a consequence of his condamnation.
If you skip the fact that I compare Peter’s response (This won’t happen to you) and the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice was free and needed, then you didn’t get where I am getting at.

Maybe you can read the previous responses, which were helpful to me, especially the ones of AmbroseSJ who made the distinction that the sin of the jews was the reason they wanted to kill jesus (the why). And afterwards, it was clear tht by doing this, they fulfilled Scripture. Whereas with Peter, that he doesn’t want Jesus to die is clearly a sin because he wanted Jesus to do it his way. So the intention here is key.