Father Martin’s ‘LGBT’ Approach Sparks Concerns Critics say it fails to communicate Catholic truths

[Peter_J]

How often do you hear someone saying…I’m a liar, or I’m an adulterer, I’m a Kleptomaniac, I’m a glutton, I’m a sloth

Not very often at all. However, I think it’s fairly common for a gay person to come out of the closet and be immediately labelled “sodomite” by someone listening.

 

[Peter_J]

Archbishop Chaput used the term homosexuality! Time for a protest.

Touché.

 

[10gr8kids]

By comparing it with adultery. I’m not going to answer the second part of your post as you know I didn’t say anything like that.

By comparing it to adultery? I’m confused.

The only thing I can think is that when I say I’m an adulterer, or I’m a liar, or I’m a sloth, etc etc

Is that you don’t understand I mean I struggle/have struggled with these things. Even though I want to sit on the couch, I don’t; I get up, do the dishes, laundry, sweep and mop the floors…

Even though I want to eat that second piece of cake, I get up from the table and go for a walk.

See why we don’t like to refer to ourselves by our sins we struggle with. People assume we are living in them. There are plenty of people who have been tempted to have sex outside marriage, or may have done it in the past. That doesn’t mean they are now committing adultery, but if they go around saying they are adulterers, it seems you would assume they are living in that sin.

 

[10gr8kids]

Not very often at all. However, I think it’s fairly common for a gay person to come out of the closet and be immediately labelled “sodomite” by someone listening.

Very true.

That might be why it’s not something someone would want to share with a lot of people. Maybe those you trust and are close to, and would be able to help in your struggles. I have never known someone to come out and tell me they are an alcoholic. That doesn’t mean there aren’t many people who are.

If someone told you they have a hard time telling the truth, would you want to buy a used car from them?

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t know if anyone yet posted this link, but the NCRegister has another article in which they interview Fr. Martin:

ncregister.com/daily-news/father-james-martin-explains-his-vision-regarding-lgbt-catholics

 

[10gr8kids]

I don’t know if anyone yet posted this link, but the NCRegister has another article in which they interview Fr. Martin:

ncregister.com/daily-news/father-james-martin-explains-his-vision-regarding-lgbt-catholics

The other thing is that “pro-gay” is kind of a strange term to use as an insult, because it’s like saying “pro-migrant” or “pro-elderly.

How is gay equivalent to migrant and elderly?

Does someone struggle with the sin of becoming old?

I understand that he wants to help people who struggle with the sin in their lives. I can understand that he feels particularly drawn to help gays. I don’t understand how you can compare someone who struggles with homosexuality to someone who grows old.

Would he object to being called pro-druggie because he wanted to help those with drug addictions? Maybe not, after all they need help too, but it would be a much better comparison than pro-elderly.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Im sorry if anyone thought I’d claimed it was a sin. Can you please point out to me where you got that idea from so I may edit it.

I was talking about how others don’t care to be recognized by the sins we struggle with. Are you saying homosexuals do not struggle with sin; particularly homosexual acts?

Well, are you claiming all who are “homosexual” have committed the sin of actually engaging in “homosexual acts”?

Many who have a Culture War mentality about this topic, seem to insist on defining “homosexual” as “one who has homosexual sex” and that a “chaste homosexual” is a contradiction.

Yet, while I certainly realize it is possible to commit adultery and other sins against chastity without actually having sex, not all who identify as gay or homosexual has ever actually engaged in physical sex acts with the same sex.

Though sadly, it seems the Conventional Wisdom on CAF is “Even if that’s true, who cares, 99% of the time, gays/homosexuals ARE regularly committing sexual sin, the 1% who don’t are irrelevant to the discussion”.

 

[Brendan]

Here is a response to Fr Martin’s book from a fellow Jesuit

firstthings.com/article/2017/08/pontifex-minimus

 

[10gr8kids]

Well, are you claiming all who are “homosexual” have committed the sin of actually engaging in “homosexual acts”?

Many who have a Culture War mentality about this topic, seem to insist on defining “homosexual” as “one who has homosexual sex” and that a “chaste homosexual” is a contradiction.

Yet, while I certainly realize it is possible to commit adultery and other sins against chastity without actually having sex, not all who identify as gay or homosexual has ever actually engaged in physical sex acts with the same sex.

Though sadly, it seems the Conventional Wisdom on CAF is “Even if that’s true, who cares, 99% of the time, gays/homosexuals ARE regularly committing sexual sin, the 1% who don’t are irrelevant to the discussion”.

No, I’m saying they identify themselves by a sin they struggle with.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

No, I’m saying they identify themselves by a sin they struggle with.

And what exactly is that sin?

Again, you have evidence on this very forum that there do exist people who identify as “gay” but are not actually regularly committing sexual sins.

So what sin are they struggling with, then?

It’s hard to follow you without arriving at the conclusion that “it is a sin even to be attracted to the same sex”.

Now, of course I’m sure some of the chaste gays people are indeed tempted to commit sexual sin. But temptation to commit sexual sin, or any other sin, is NOT the same as actual sin. Otherwise Jesus Himself would be guilty of sin, since He was tempted by Satan.

 

[10gr8kids]

And what exactly is that sin?

Again, you have evidence on this very forum that there do exist people who identify as “gay” but are not actually regularly committing sexual sins.

So what sin are they struggling with, then?

It’s hard to follow you without arriving at the conclusion that “it is a sin even to be attracted to the same sex”.

Now, of course I’m sure some of the chaste gays people are indeed tempted to commit sexual sin. But temptation to commit sexual sin, or any other sin, is NOT the same as actual sin. Otherwise Jesus Himself would be guilty of sin, since He was tempted by Satan.

I would assume if one is a homosexual, they would struggle with the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Here is a response to Fr Martin’s book from a fellow Jesuit

firstthings.com/article/2017/08/pontifex-minimus

Priests who frequently counsel and hear confessions can attest that there are many such Catholics, who fully accept the difficult doctrines as the teaching of Christ and who struggle heroically to keep them. Such Catholics already live in the heart of the Church, as much as do any of the faithful, and no bridge needs to be built to them. Moreover, they do not need to be “accompanied,” as the jargon has it, because they have already arrived at, or never left, the home they share with their would-be accompanists. Very few of these men and women identify themselves as “gay” or wish to be so designated. They are simply Catholics, neither more nor less, struggling (as do the rest of us) with the spiritual and moral hardships that come their way. It is astonishing that Martin seems never to have met such a person.

While I agree with most of the article, what I would say, is that many of those Catholics who accept Church doctrine DO identify as gay, and I find it astonishing this priest seems to have never met such a person.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I would assume if one is a homosexual, they would struggle with the desire to have sex with someone of the same sex.

And that is not necessarily a sin, unless by “desire” you are referring to lust,. But attraction is not the same as lust.

 

[10gr8kids]

And what exactly is that sin?

Again, you have evidence on this very forum that there do exist people who identify as “gay” but are not actually regularly committing sexual sins.

So what sin are they struggling with, then?

It’s hard to follow you without arriving at the conclusion that “it is a sin even to be attracted to the same sex”.

Now, of course I’m sure some of the chaste gays people are indeed tempted to commit sexual sin. But temptation to commit sexual sin, or any other sin, is NOT the same as actual sin. Otherwise Jesus Himself would be guilty of sin, since He was tempted by Satan.

I would think it would be a lot more than some.

 

[10gr8kids]

And that is not necessarily a sin, unless by “desire” you are referring to lust,. But attraction is not the same as lust.

Once again I never said it was. You can struggle with a sin without committing it.

 

[Joe_5859]

How is gay equivalent to migrant and elderly?

Does someone struggle with the sin of becoming old?

I understand that he wants to help people who struggle with the sin in their lives. I can understand that he feels particularly drawn to help gays. I don’t understand how you can compare someone who struggles with homosexuality to someone who grows old.

Would he object to being called pro-druggie because he wanted to help those with drug addictions? Maybe not, after all they need help too, but it would be a much better comparison than pro-elderly.

Well, I’m sure Fr. Martin would point out that simply being gay is no sin either. I think his point is that he isn’t insulted by being called “pro-[insert vulnerable group that often has a hard time here]”.

He does bring up some fair points in his interview. Perhaps it would be better to press him for details rather than dismiss him as a heretic. He seems very careful not to contradict Church teaching and even to go through the proper channels in getting his talks and books approved.

Now, this could be a calculated move. I know there are theologians out there who are trying to sneak in Trojan horse ideas that are unobjectionable on their face, but then can grow into something quite different (I’ve heard a Catholic theologian admit just as much in a presentation once). Is this what Fr. Martin is doing? I don’t know that any of us can say.

I find it interesting that he even admits that the harder sell is to the LGBT people than it is to the Church hierarchy. He admits that many priests and bishops want to reach out to this group. But many LGBT people feel hurt and don’t want to reach out to the Church. So how does the Church reach out to a group that doesn’t want to reach back without capitulating on Catholic moral teaching?

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. It’s fine to call for conversation, dialogue, compassion, sensitivity, bridge-building, et al. Those are all good things in general. But what that concretely looks like is important. Because there are ways of doing that which are consistent with Catholic teaching. And there are ways of doing it that are not.

This is why I’m concerned he does not even mention Church teaching against homosexual acts in the book. Now, perhaps it is as he says, just a judgment call on his part about beginning with the common ground and not drawing attention (yet) to the areas of disagreement. But, eventually, that elephant in the room is going to need to be addressed. Not recognizing that there is such an elephant in the room, even from the outset, seems to me a missed opportunity at best, disingenuous at worse.

Maybe that’s just the inherent difficulty in trying to generalize a conversation that takes place thousands of times over on an individual level. It’s not as if there will be some corporate meeting between the U.S. Bishops and the LGBT community as a whole. No, it’s generally priests and even lay Catholics encountering individuals at all different places. So, certainly, in my first encounter with a gay individual, I wouldn’t likely lead off with the Church’s teaching on same sex activity. But it will need to be addressed eventually. And for many such individual conversations taking place, it will need to be addressed before Fr. Martin writes his next book.

I guess that’s why I don’t understand why he doesn’t address the topic in his book about bridge building. It doesn’t have to be the first chapter, but certainly, it would be helpful to be included even if towards the back. That is, after all, the fundamental question on the mind of many Catholics.

Sorry this post kind of rambled on. I’m just thinking through these things.

 

[10gr8kids]

While I agree with most of the article, what I would say, is that many of those Catholics who accept Church doctrine DO identify as gay, and I find it astonishing this priest seems to have never met such a person.

There are all kinds of attractions people have that if acted on would be immoral. Why anyone would want to identify with these attractions I don’t understand. As of now, most people would not care to identify themselves by these or be identified by these from others. As time goes on I would not be surprised that more and more of these paraphilias will become acceptable to more and more people. And some people will be proud of these and expect others to call it good.

 

[Gertabelle]

The greater issue is the pro-“SSA” bandwagon’s refusal to utter the word “gay” or “homosexual.” What I find offensive is the notion that there’s such a thing as “ex-gay,” and nearly all proponents of “SSA” are the very same ones who think homosexuals really can go from gay from heterosexual (forgetting the obvious that such ‘ex-gay’ people were never homosexual to begin with.) Not coincidentally, the same ones who want to insist that “SSA” is even anywhere in the Catechism.

Wow. Interesting theories there.

When I was living as a lesbian for ten years, I called myself a lesbian.

I marched in the parades. I sang at the rallies. I performed on stage and screamed, “I’m a lesbian!” to thunderous cheers and applause. I spoke to reporters. I wrote pieces about being born that way.

Here I am now, some fifteen years after leaving my last lesbian relationship, and I don’t have the slightest bit of same-sex attraction. Nowadays I use the term “same-sex attraction” to describe my lack of temptation towards the lifestyle I so fully embraced for a decade.

I’m not here to start an argument about whether or not I was ever a lesbian, or whether or not I was “healed,” or even whether or not someone should use “lesbian” or “same-sex attracted.”

I just wanted to share my experience and choice of vocabulary as someone who has **actually lived the life **and isn’t anymore.

Carry on.

 

[StudentMI]

Once again I never said it was. You can struggle with a sin without committing it.

Again, that is not correct. You struggle with a temptation, not a sin. It again sounds like you are saying that homosexual attraction and temptation are themselves sins. Please read the following:

ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo14.htm

There are all kinds of attractions people have that if acted on would be immoral. Why anyone would want to identify with these attractions I don’t understand.

If you’re not a homosexual it can be difficult to understand. But you have to realize you haven’t lived my life, you have no idea the feelings I have or the problems I go through. I have spoken to several orthodox priests, including the one who ran the Courage group I attended and whom I still talk with from time to time. None of them have told me I need to be quiet about who I am. They also didn’t tell me I had to shout it from the rooftops.

Soon after I converted, at the height of my scrupulosity, I told a friend from Church I was gay. That same day I went to confession and confessed it. My confessor told me point blank (and before anyone chime in, he is a very conservative priest) that is not a sin and that I can tell whoever I want. He has a doctorate to teach theology. I’ll trust him over random Catholics on a message board.

 

[10gr8kids]

Again, that is not correct. You struggle with a temptation, not a sin. It again sounds like you are saying that homosexual attraction and temptation are themselves sins. Please read the following:

ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo14.htm

If you’re not a homosexual it can be difficult to understand. But you have to realize you haven’t lived my life, you have no idea the feelings I have or the problems I go through. I have spoken to several orthodox priests, including the one who ran the Courage group I attended and whom I still talk with from time to time. None of them have told me I need to be quiet about who I am. They also didn’t tell me I had to shout it from the rooftops.

Soon after I converted, at the height of my scrupulosity, I told a friend from Church I was gay. That same day I went to confession and confessed it. My confessor told me point blank (and before anyone chime in, he is a very conservative priest) that is not a sin and that I can tell whoever I want. He has a doctorate to teach theology. I’ll trust him over random Catholics on a message board.

Ok, if you think it is better to say homosexuals struggle with a ‘temptation to sin’ rather than struggle with ‘sin’ that’s what we will go with.

Of course, you can tell anyone you want about your struggle with temptation to sin.

I choose not to go around telling everyone I meet about my struggles, I do tell people who I am close with and can help me overcome them. I also do not identify myself with the temptations I have. Of course anyone who wants to is free to do so. Don’t be surprised when people have preconceived ideas though when you tell them of the temptations you struggle with. Especially if you don’t know them well. Most people wouldn’t feel safe letting their children get in a vehicle with someone after they’ve just been informed said person struggles with alcoholism.