Father removes son from school over prayers

  • Thread starter Thread starter 1holycatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
1

1holycatholic

Guest
Father removes son from school over prayers
An irate father who withdrew his young son from school after discovering that he was reciting prayers is considering further action against the school for “not sticking to its agreement”.

Martijn Leenheer said he was “shocked” to accidentally discover five-year-old Finn had been reciting prayers several times a day at Drumlease Primary School in Dromahair, Co Leitrim, despite the fact that his parents had opted out of Catholic religious instruction for their child.

Finn now attends the Educate Together school in Sligo. But his father, who has outlined his case to the Irish Human Rights Commission, is considering taking his complaint to the Equality Authority or the Ombudsman for Children.
…

Read more: belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/father-removes-son-from-school-over-prayers-15065286.html#ixzz1CsnD9jZh

The following is an op-ed piece on the story: ‘Village atheist’ takes aim at Catholic school - David Quinn
 
Whats so wrong with prayer that you would go to a lawyer to have it stopped?
 
“It stated very clearly that they welcomed all religions and none. The school also asked a question, if I wanted my son taught in the Catholic faith.
“I answered ‘no’, so you can imagine my surprise when I heard my son reciting prayers,” he added.”
belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/father-removes-son-from-school-over-prayers

:confused: If the school is Catholic, why does it have such alternative whether to teach the child in the Catholic faith?
This is new for me who received 12 years of Catholic education. In 1970 there was no such an option for a non-Catholic who wanted his child to enjoy the precious education of a Catholic school. Is not the father’s fault but the school’s for having such terms that couldn’t keep.
This man does not know what he lost by taking the prayers away from the innocent child, whose prayers the Lord takes them to His Sacred Heart so dearly. I pray for some day the Lord will show him how much his son’s prayers affected his life.
 
Norminha wrote:
If the school is Catholic, why does it have such alternative whether to teach the child in the Catholic faith?
Click to expand...
Although the vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are denominational they are part-funded by the state and the teachers are paid by the state. That is how the system has evolved since its inception in 1831. Since historically the vast majority of the Irish population has been Catholic, it is no surprise that the Catholic Church still has control over the management of most of the primary schools here. However, the situation is changing as Irish demographics and religious affiliations change. The Church is already divesting itself of some of these schools and returning them to full control by the state. In the meantime, it has a situation where not every pupil in its schools is Catholic and it is required by law to accommodate parental wishes with regard to religious instruction. I should point out that even when I was at school in the 1960s and 1970s, there were a number of non-Catholics in my convent school, simply because there was no other school they could attend within the area. They were excused religious instruction, too, and didn’t have to be present for school prayers or Mass either.

But as Jharek points out, it is difficult to grow up in Ireland even today without being exposed to elements of the Catholic culture of the country. The Angelus, rung on state radio at noon and on state TV at 6pm, is just one example. Most community activities in Ireland are still organised on a Catholic parish basis, and even non-practising Catholics and non-believers still identify with their Catholic parish.
 
1holycatholic said:
Martijn Leenheer said he was “shocked” to accidentally discover five-year-old Finn had been reciting prayers several times a day at Drumlease Primary School in Dromahair, Co Leitrim, despite the fact that his parents had opted out of Catholic religious instruction for their child.
Click to expand...
Why is it that atheist seem so worried about religon? Is he afraid his son will see the light?
 
SamH said:
Why is it that atheist seem so worried about religon? Is he afraid his son will see the light?
Click to expand...
Where does it say that he’s ‘worried’ about religion? He opted his son out of religious instruction in the school - that’s how he wants to raise his son and he has that right as a parent, plus the school did not have a problem doing that. It happens all the time in denominational schools in Ireland. My daughter attended a Church of Ireland (Anglican)school for a couple of years as it was nearest to us. However, we opted her out of religious instruction and the school made provision for her and several other Catholic pupils to receive religious instruction from a retired Catholic teacher in the area. The school also asked us if we had a problem with her attending morning assembly at which prayers were said and we did not.

In this instance however, the school failed (as the father saw it, anyway) in its duty to carry out his wishes, and - while I believe it’s impossible to remove all religious influence in a denominational school - I think he has a point with regard to his son reciting prayers. No religious instruction should mean no religious instruction: teaching him prayers is religious instruction.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
Where does it say that he’s ‘worried’ about religion? He opted his son out of religious instruction in the school - that’s how he wants to raise his son and he has that right as a parent, plus the school did not have a problem doing that. It happens all the time in denominational schools in Ireland. My daughter attended a Church of Ireland (Anglican)school for a couple of years as it was nearest to us. However, we opted her out of religious instruction and the school made provision for her and several other Catholic pupils to receive religious instruction from a retired Catholic teacher in the area. The school also asked us if we had a problem with her attending morning assembly at which prayers were said and we did not.

In this instance however, the school failed (as the father saw it, anyway) in its duty to carry out his wishes, and - while I believe it’s impossible to remove all religious influence in a denominational school - I think he has a point with regard to his son reciting prayers. No religious instruction should mean no religious instruction: teaching him prayers is religious instruction.
Click to expand...
I agree. If the school allows opting out of religious instruction it shouldn’t turn around and force that instruction on its pupils.

Your last sentence sums it up well: “No religious instruction should mean no religious instruction: teaching him prayers is religious instruction.” 👍

Besides, isn’t lying a sin?
 
I am praying for this misguided man. Lord, please forgive him for his terrible sins.
 
I went to Catholic high school in the late 70s, and as I was protestant at that time, I was excused from all religious instruction. I had to take an extra elective instead of religion class. That was the agreement.

However, one nun did tell me that she was praying that I would join the true Church. And her prayers were answered.

Maybe little Finn will be as lucky as I was.
 
Just because you’re excluded from religious education does not mean you’ll be excluded from exposure to religion in a religious school. It simply isn’t going to happen and they don’t have an obligation to “sanitize” the rest if the institution to provide you with a perfectly secular experience.

If the school was including the child in religious education then someone committed an error.

If the child picked up prayers and other religious traditions from the general culture of teachers and students then the father is just being a prat.

Reading the article a little more closely, it appears that the “crime” committed here is that the child was exposed to Catholics saying a prayer at the beginning and the end of a school day in their Catholic school. This father is behaving like a royal prat, trying to use his child as a level to overturn the apple cart like that atheist here in the States that keeps trying to sue because his child is exposed to people saying “under God” in the pledge of Allegiance ever morning in class.
  • Marty Lund
 
1holycatholic;7521623Martijn Leenheer said he was “shocked” to accidentally discover five-year-old Finn had been reciting prayers several times a day at Drumlease Primary School in Dromahair said:
In the United States, all we have ever had is a state school system. Such sectarian education as exists has always been separate.

Our efforts at separating faith and education are a failure. Either one side or the other must lose in the decision, at least insofar as modern education is concerened. The opposing views of truth are too different.

If the Irish government recognizes a “right” to a non-Catholic education, then sooner or later, the result will be a dilution of the Catholic education that exists.

It would probably be better to strike the colours early, and get to work on creating a free standing religious school system.
Click to expand...
 
No question. I am suggesting that if the Irish model is going to be judged by a government run court that is not comprised of Irish Catholics, such as the tribunals conducted by the Human Rights Commission, then sooner or later, the Irish school system is going to face a choice.

I am not flag waving in support of US education, which hopefully was clear.

I am saying that the US experience will be instructive for the Irish people, because we have been dealing with these choices since the late 1800s.

In the contest between faith and its opponents, the courts consistently rule such that the influence of faith within government is decreased.
 
Perhaps not in the same way as the Irish will deal with them in future.

I am not certain at what point you would date the English conquest of Ireland to have been more or less complete, but if it was sometime around 1600, interestingly that would coincide with the founding of the first English colonies over here. A state run school system of universal application was, I think, at least 200 years in the future.

Within the West European context, it seems that state Churches have historically had a large role to play in state schools. Some European school systems are younger than some in the US, because ours were founded over about a 100 year span.

Now, cases are being brought, and policies are being implemented throughout Europe that are changing the ground rules for state sponsored education. Other examples might be the symbols rulings in France, the Italian crucifix case. Similar cases, but with different sects, began to be fought in US Courts and legislatures as far back as the 1860’s.

In the USA, the religious oriented side has lost fairly consistently, and fairly decisively.

You described this particular Irish case as a tempest in a teacup, and perhaps rightly so.

However, I will play the old game of reading the tea leaves at the bottom: The Irish who want a state-sponsored, universal Catholic education system will end up disappointed, and they should begin their planning for the likely outcome now.

The alternative may look a lot more like the USA than they would like.
 
In the eyes of God it IS the job - and the duty - of the school to evangelise. To deny this child our teachings is a criminal act.
Like I said, we must pray for the sins of this misguided man.
 
Aldegunais said:
In the eyes of God it IS the job - and the duty - of the school to evangelise. To deny this child our teachings is a criminal act.
Like I said, we must pray for the sins of this misguided man.
Click to expand...
:banghead:

Fiddlesticks!

The school is state-run. The teachers are paid by the state not the Church. Their only duty is to teach the state curriculum. They are not obligated to evangelise, only to teach their Catholic students about Catholicism. How exactly do you imagine that they have criminal charges to answer?

The Church is only the patron of the school - it is not a Catholic school in the sense that you imagine it to be. Quite a few of the schools that the Church is patron of in Ireland are not Catholic in any sense. That is just how the system has evolved historically. The school is obligated to take the boy as a student as he lives within its catchment area. It is also obligated to respect the wishes of his parents with regard to religious education.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
:banghead:

Fiddlesticks!

The school is state-run. The teachers are paid by the state not the Church. Their only duty is to teach the state curriculum. They are not obligated to evangelise, only to teach their Catholic students about Catholicism. How exactly do you imagine that they have criminal charges to answer?

The Church is only the patron of the school - it is not a Catholic school in the sense that you imagine it to be. Quite a few of the schools that the Church is patron of in Ireland are not Catholic in any sense. That is just how the system has evolved historically. The school is obligated to take the boy as a student as he lives within its catchment area. It is also obligated to respect the wishes of his parents with regard to religious education.
Click to expand...
It does not matter if the school is state run or not. If the teachers are Catholic, then it is their duty to teach the word of our Lord. If they do not, they fail in their duty to God.
When I say “criminal”, I did of course not mean this in the legal sense.
You see, the boy in question could be saved; he needs appropriate religious guidance and direction. His teachers must never deny him that right, come what may. Yet his misguided father stops him from learning the beauty of the Gospel. The boy may now grow up to become yet another atheist, another instrument of the devil. Is this not a violation of the rights of the boy in question? Is the word “criminal” not correct if you look at it objectively?
 
Dale_M said:
Tulips 🙂

Flood control technology

Gouda cheese (best appreciated if properly aged)

But, I am a bit confused. What does the Netherlands have to do with this thread?
Click to expand...
You’ve got me there.

Only joking, of course; its just the only times when I heard Holland mentioned in matters of faith its (1) skyrocketing rates in atheism, (2) molestation + ecclesiastical misrule, and (3) the difficulty of integrating its Muslim newcomers. You’ve gotta admit, it has a poor track record in the ‘Church news’ column.
Yellow_Belle said:
I seem to remember they said the same about Nazareth…
Click to expand...
Yup, that’s the source of my quote. Maybe the Netherlands will surprise us big time. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top