Father removes son from school over prayers

[Yellow_Belle]

It does not matter if the school is state run or not. If the teachers are Catholic, then it is their duty to teach the word of our Lord. If they do not, they fail in their duty to God.
When I say “criminal”, I did of course not mean this in the legal sense.
You see, the boy in question could be saved; he needs appropriate religious guidance and direction. His teachers must never deny him that right, come what may. Yet his misguided father stops him from learning the beauty of the Gospel. The boy may now grow up to become yet another atheist, another instrument of the devil. Is this not a violation of the rights of the boy in question? Is the word “criminal” not correct if you look at it objectively?

Of course it matters that the school is state run. And teachers have no duty, and in fact, go against the teaching of the Church itself, if they usurp the authority of a parent and oppose his wishes with regard to the upbringing of his son. A parent’s rights in this regard are paramount and it is seriously sinful to attempt to alienate them. Many times on this forum we see questions from grandparents wanting to baptise their grandchildren because the children’s parents will not. The answer from the apologists is always the same: the grandparents have no right to do so, even if they fear for how the child will be raised, separated from the Church. Likewise it is NOT the responsibility or duty of Catholic teachers in a state-run school to usurp the authority of a parent in the upbringing of his child and attempt to evangelise the child.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

You’ve gotta admit, it has a poor track record in the ‘Church news’ column.

Neither of our countries’ records in the Church news column are exactly exemplary… so what’s your point?

 

[Aldegunais]

Of course it matters that the school is state run. And teachers have no duty, and in fact, go against the teaching of the Church itself, if they usurp the authority of a parent and oppose his wishes with regard to the upbringing of his son. A parent’s rights in this regard are paramount and it is seriously sinful to attempt to alienate them. Many times on this forum we see questions from grandparents wanting to baptise their grandchildren because the children’s parents will not. The answer from the apologists is always the same: the grandparents have no right to do so, even if they fear for how the child will be raised, separated from the Church. Likewise it is NOT the responsibility or duty of Catholic teachers in a state-run school to usurp the authority of a parent in the upbringing of his child and attempt to evangelise the child.

On the surface of it most would agree with you. Yet you are wrong. Our duty towards God comes first.
I recall a somewhat similar situation in my own parish many years ago where the parents of one of the girls in our local school did not have their daughter baptised. Without the permission of her parents, the school principal had organised to have the girl christened in private during religion class. The girl in question grew up to be a good Catholic. She is now thankful for the wisdom and foresight of her former school principal.
I pray that the teachers in this school in Ireland will also find the courage to do the right thing.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

On the surface of it most would agree with you. Yet you are wrong. Our duty towards God comes first.
I recall a somewhat similar situation in my own parish many years ago where the parents of one of the girls in our local school did not have their daughter baptised. Without the permission of her parents, the school principal had organised to have the girl christened in private during religion class. The girl in question grew up to be a good Catholic. She is now thankful for the wisdom and foresight of her former school principal.
I pray that the teachers in this school in Ireland will also find the courage to do the right thing.

So your personal opinion on what constitutes others’ duty towards God trumps the teaching of the Church on this issue?

 

[MissRose73]

I’ve known many Irish Catholics over the years.

They were all educated in Catholic schools, and attended Mass. Most of them to this day still are practicing Catholics.

But the main differences were is one of my friends lived in Northern Ireland where Catholics are still subject to some discrimination compared to the other friends who lived in the Republic which is in the majority are Catholic & Catholics have more freedoms there.

My best friend in Northern Ireland was educated in Catholic type schools, and never went to a school where kids of various faith backgrounds mingled freely or a school that was for Protestants. Where he lived and grew up, people rarely mingled with others outside of their area as your address to this day usually can tell people a lot: your ethnic background (identifying as either British or Irish), economic situation, and your religion (Catholic or Protestant). Things have gotten more peaceful since he was a teen, but still there are those who cling much to the ways of the past where they believe in segregation. I’ve been to his city, and I can’t pick out a Catholic or a Protestant in the crowd, but I am careful not to advertise that I am Catholic in any part of town that is more Protestant.

I am certain prayer and catechism were part of the curriculum in the schools based on their faith traditions, and are to this day. If a parent does not approve of their child’s exposure to the faith traditions and teachings in a faith based school, they can seek out a public school or a regular non faith based private school where kids don’t have to pray in class, receive instruction in the Catechism, and attend religious services.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

If a parent does not approve of their child’s exposure to the faith traditions and teachings in a faith based school, they can seek out a public school or a regular non faith based private school where kids don’t have to pray in class, receive instruction in the Catechism, and attend religious services.

Or they can have their child attend a national school in his catchment area, where the patron is either the Church of Ireland or the Catholic Church (and that is how the primary education system has evolved in the Republic of Ireland) and where their rights as parents to raise their child with or without religious beliefs are respected.

 

[Aldegunais]

So your personal opinion on what constitutes others’ duty towards God trumps the teaching of the Church on this issue?

Baptising children of non Catholic parents is nothing new. It was done often years ago with the approval of the Holy See, and rightly so. Why are some of us all of a sudden shocked by this? Had it not been done for the good of these children? The official stance of our Church may have changed over the years in this regard, but I am sure that many would still agree that these baptisms were a blessing. Many little souls were saved.
As Catholics it is our mission to spread the gospel and convert as many souls as we can.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Baptising children of non Catholic parents is nothing new. It was done often years ago with the approval of the Holy See, and rightly so. Why are some of us all of a sudden shocked by this? Had it not been done for the good of these children? The official stance of our Church may have changed over the years in this regard, but I am sure that many would still agree that these baptisms were a blessing. Many little souls were saved.
As Catholics it is our mission to spread the gospel and convert as many souls as we can.

It has NEVER been the teaching of the Church that one can do wrong that good may come of it. Usurping parents’ rights is a serious wrong.

Certainly it our mission to spread the Gospel but we may not do wrong to do so.

What part of this teaching of the Church don’t you understand?

 

[Young_Thinker]

Has not this father ever considered that his son might want to pray or have a relationship with God?

 

[RobbyS]

Where does it say that he’s ‘worried’ about religion? He opted his son out of religious instruction in the school - that’s how he wants to raise his son and he has that right as a parent, plus the school did not have a problem doing that. It happens all the time in denominational schools in Ireland. My daughter attended a Church of Ireland (Anglican)school for a couple of years as it was nearest to us. However, we opted her out of religious instruction and the school made provision for her and several other Catholic pupils to receive religious instruction from a retired Catholic teacher in the area. The school also asked us if we had a problem with her attending morning assembly at which prayers were said and we did not.

In this instance however, the school failed (as the father saw it, anyway) in its duty to carry out his wishes, and - while I believe it’s impossible to remove all religious influence in a denominational school - I think he has a point with regard to his son reciting prayers. No religious instruction should mean no religious instruction: teaching him prayers is religious instruction.

But was he being taught the prayers or did he just pick them up because that is what the other kids do? Facts matter.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I know. It just reminds me of the fuss that was made by one parent in the early '60’s that led to prayer being banned in public schools in the U.S. Frankly, the attitude of many secularists is quite annoying. By the way, Mr. Carnelian, I thought that you were not going to be posting anymore!

 

[Yellow_Belle]

But was he being taught the prayers or did he just pick them up because that is what the other kids do? Facts matter.

It isn’t clear. It may well be, as Jharek has pointed out, that he simply picked them up from the other kids. Or it may be that he was actively taught them.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I understand. I hope that you enjoy the rest of your time here.

 

[Hopemercy]

Maybe people do not know how tiny a village Dromahair, which I know well, is.

One of the school’s arguments was that it is impossible to segregate one child like this unless the parent made those arrangements in person, in such a small school.

In a small Irish school, everything can be heard easily so it is very possible that the wee one simply listened and followed, as all children do. Not heavy religious instruction; simply the daily prayers.

If the parent wanted to achieve total secular education then he needed to place his child in one of the new non denom schools, which I seem to remember he finally did?

The social effects of all this on the child are bad; rural Ireland is already poor re foreign residents.

A lot depends too on how good the man;s English is!

 

[1holycatholic]

In a small Irish school, everything can be heard easily so it is very possible that the wee one simply listened and followed, as all children do. Not heavy religious instruction; simply the daily prayers.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

As instructed, the child was not placed in religious education classes. The atheist (per the linked article in the OP) didn’t even want his child to hear other children praying. That’s not a rational expectation.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

As instructed, the child was not placed in religious education classes. The atheist (per the linked article in the OP) didn’t even want his child to hear other children praying. That’s not a rational expectation.

Hopemercy’s supposition was already mentioned by both Jharek and me, along with a broader view that it seemed to us impossible that anyone could go about their daily business in Ireland without being exposed to some degree to religious sensibilities.

However, while it is a reasonable supposition, it is unclear from the article how the child learned the prayers or exactly what his father’s instructions to the school were beyond keeping his child out of religious education classes. If he explicitly instructed the school not to have his son included in the prayers, and the school agreed to this (it’s not a totally irrational expectation, BTW, nor is it impracticable in a small school: the Anglican school my daughter attended for several years specifically asked us if we wanted her to sit out morning assembly prayer and the prayer at the end of the day), then the school was negligent in not ensuring his wishes were carried out.

The father is quoted as saying:

My belief is that the school should be responsible for supervising children if they want to opt out [of prayer] because the way it stands at the moment, they ask me if I want to opt out, I say, ‘yes’ and basically nothing happens

and I take this as an indication that the school asked the same question of him as my daughter’s Anglican school did of us, the father said ‘yes’, but the school did not carry out his wishes.

 

[Hopemercy]

Hopemercy’s supposition was already mentioned by both Jharek and me, along with a broader view that it seemed to us impossible that anyone could go about their daily business in Ireland without being exposed to some degree to religious sensibilities.

However, while it is a reasonable supposition, it is unclear from the article how the child learned the prayers or exactly what his father’s instructions to the school were beyond keeping his child out of religious education classes. If he explicitly instructed the school not to have his son included in the prayers, and the school agreed to this (it’s not a totally irrational expectation, BTW, nor is it impracticable in a small school: the Anglican school my daughter attended for several years specifically asked us if we wanted her to sit out morning assembly prayer and the prayer at the end of the day), then the school was negligent in not ensuring his wishes were carried out.

The father is quoted as saying:

and I take this as an indication that the school asked the same question of him as my daughter’s Anglican school did of us, the father said ‘yes’, but the school did not carry out his wishes.

It is very difficult to explain this to those not in Ireland. It really is. School is where the children are prepared for First Communion and Confirmation. These classes will be ongoing and audible and children at play will repeat and copy. This is not like secular education in the US.

There is no valid comparison here with the Anglican school.

The dad’s words did not come over but his English is very stilted and thus he clearly did not understand what the school system is here. He thought it as easy as the Anglican set up and it is not in Ireland where all society is… shot through with "The faith of our fathers.’ trying to explain is impossible hard!

Making the sign of the Cross for example; grace at lunch… These would be unacceptable to this man who did not understand what Ireland is like. It may have been something as simple as that. Which of course the wee one repeated at home. As little ones do; he probably came out with a Hail Mary…and dad freaked out…

What the man was seeking was a totally secular school, with no religious images etc and no language of “religion” .

As I say, it is very hard to describe the totality of the system here without living here.

What the man should have looked at is what is coming in more now; I am unable to get the url up here but I think he moved the boy to a new non-denom school in ??Sligo?? Which would be more like the Dutch system. And like yours.

But expecting a child to be totally removed from religious influence at an Irish village school is chasing an impossibility. As the Dutchman discovered. He should have done more research of course, but then he is a foreigner and thought it was easy.

Certainly the shool acted as best it should; however the issue of supervision in a small school for a child that age remains a problem as it would need an extra staff member to comply with our laws. You cannot leave a child of five alone in a room for example. There are insurance issues. At that age, there would be little formal religious education. anyways. .

 

[Yellow_Belle]

:irish3:

You’ll have to take my word for it, of course, Hopeandmercy, but I speak from actual experience of having my Catholic child educated in a Church of Ireland school in Ireland. They asked the question about my daughter being included in prayer times, just as this school apparently asked the father. He didn’t want his son included; I had no objection. Mine was clearly the easier option for the school. There were other Catholic children attending whose parents chose not to have their children included. The school - which was similar in population to a small rural school - had no problem complying with either option and the 3 teachers and the teacher assistant took it in turns to supervise the opt-outs.

As the popular meerkat ad has it, “Simples”.

 

[LittleSoldier]

On the surface of it most would agree with you. Yet you are wrong. Our duty towards God comes first.
I recall a somewhat similar situation in my own parish many years ago where the parents of one of the girls in our local school did not have their daughter baptised. Without the permission of her parents, the school principal had organised to have the girl christened in private during religion class. The girl in question grew up to be a good Catholic. She is now thankful for the wisdom and foresight of her former school principal.
I pray that the teachers in this school in Ireland will also find the courage to do the right thing.

Your position is interesting. I didn’t look at it that way. Thanks - I’ll have to do some more thinking about this.

 

[Maureen1125]

Why send your child to a catholic school if you are anti-catholic or anti-prayer? You can not reasonably send your child to a catholic school, request that he be sheilded and excluded from religious ed and prayer, and then get upset when the child begins to pray.

Send him to a public school or to a private non-religious school.

The Father made a bad choice in enrolling his child in a school whose teaching he does not agree with and now wants to hold the school accountable. At the same time, the school should NEVER have agreed to he Father’s request that his child not be educated about religion.