Fatima Documentary Wed. Dec. 8 PAX TV

[Brennan_Doherty]

FrmrTrad:

How much of the enthusiasm for the Fatima conspiracy (that Russia was not consecrated and that Our Lady’s message is being actively ignored) is an extension of anxiety about the “new mass”? I think that traditionalism, especially in relation to doubting the Second Vatican Council and believing that the Pauline rite of mass is not the “true mass”, requires some sort of corroboration: since it is not appropriate to disbelieve an ecumenical council nor a rite promulgated by the Church, traditionalists seize upon such things as Fatima, which are inherently less well-defined and thus more susceptible to interpretation. In a similar vein, traditionalist critiques of the mass focus often on the priest’s “intent”: of form, matter, and intent, the latter is the least clarified and yet the most automatic. Traditionalists’ theology (if it can be called that) about “intent” is non-credible because their notions of form are quite ignorant: they frequently quote an old catechism as if the catechism were itself a dogmatic statement rather than an explanatory one. The form used in the Pauline rite of mass is dogmatically sound. If they can’t evaluate “form”, how can they evaluate “intent”?

There is no reason to reject the Pauline rite of mass, even if one prefers the Tridentine liturgy. But one only understands that in faith: this is why the traditionalist movement is dangerous. Faith is traded in for preference, preference is disguised as faith, and support is sought from quarters that lack the foundation.

I am only speaking for myself on this issue. I do greatly prefer the Tridentine rite. I do believe the Pauline rite is valid. Pretty much anyone’s critique I have read of the Pauline rite accepts it as valid. That goes for Fr. Aidan Nichols, Cardinal Ratzinger, Dietrich von Hildebrand, Dr. William Marra, Monsignor Klaus Gamber, and others. None of these people’s critiques center on the Priest’s intent.

In regards to Fatima, again, I hope people watch the documentary today on PAX or do further research on their own. To me the issues are separate from Fr. Gruner. I think it is quite legitimate to ask questions such as, “If Russia was really consecrated in 1984 according to Our Lady’s request, where is the evidence for her conversion in any sense of the word?”

“How is it that a country can be consecrated while deliberately omitting any mention of that country in the consecration?” “Why did Sister Lucia state in an interview after the 1984 consecration that Russia had not been consecrated according to Our Lady’s wishes?” All of these, and more, are important questions. If heaven gives a command, backed up by the Miracle of the Sun, and we choose not to obey it, it should not be shocking if the results foretold by Our Lady occur, as they seem to be and very well could continue to be in the near future.

God bless.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

“If Russia was really consecrated in 1984 according to Our Lady’s request, where is the evidence for her conversion in any sense of the word?”

The fall of the Iron Curtian. The end of the Soviet Union.

“How is it that a country can be consecrated while deliberately omitting any mention of that country in the consecration?”

How is the Mass efficacious for the Church when not every members’ name is mentioned at the Mass?

“Why did Sister Lucia state in an interview after the 1984 consecration that Russia had not been consecrated according to Our Lady’s wishes?”

Did she really? Why has Sister Lucia in subsequent interviews said that it has?

All of these, and more, are important questions. If heaven gives a command, backed up by the Miracle of the Sun, and we choose not to obey it, it should not be shocking if the results foretold by Our Lady occur, as they seem to be and very well could continue to be in the near future.

Again… (bold emphasis added)

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

again, “to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.”

A lot has happened since Fatima, we are now in a different period of history.

And the Miracle of the Sun, It can not say for fact that it happened, I have heard it happened but for someone who did not see it, it is not fact.

This type of argument appears to be an attempt to raise the messages of Fatima to the level of public revelation. As when I state the Teachings of the Church on private revelation you respond back that yes that is the Teaching but then you throw out this miracle and some vague comment about “and we choose not to obey it”.

We do not have to obey it, it is private, it is not part of the Deposit of the Faith.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Wednesday is here and I refuse to watch the Pax program. I prefer to follow the teaching authority of the church and not of those who are not in union with Rome.

May God bring those back, who have strayed from his truth.
Deacon Tony SFO

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

Hmmmm, while he is validly ordained he is also validly suspended I believe. He also has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima to perform ministerial acts.

Here are some interesting links.

STATEMENT ON FATHER NICHOLAS GRUNER Congregation for the Clergy
DECLARATION ON SUSPENDED PRIEST Congregation for the Clergy
Fr. Gruner and his media apostolates

As for the argument that one does not have cable and can not get EWTN but that PAX does have some channels that can be picked up by antenna and that if their viewership increases while airing this “documentary” that maybe they will pick up more Catholic programming.

I have to disagree with that. For this to be true this “documentary” would have to be Catholic to begin with. As it is being pushed (if not produced) by a dissenter priest who is suspended I would guess that it is going to voice things that go against what has been said by the Holy Father, the Vatican, and even Sister Lucia. I would not call this program a Catholic program.

So was Padre Pio and the founder of Opus Dei at one point: what does this prove???

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Deacon Tony560:

Wednesday is here and I refuse to watch the Pax program. I prefer to follow the teaching authority of the church and not of those who are not in union with Rome.

May God bring those back, who have strayed from his truth.
Deacon Tony SFO

to that but I think we don’t have to worry too much.

It acutally airs on December 9th at 12:00am and is only a half hour long.

 

[misericordie]

Brennan Doherty:

I am only speaking for myself on this issue. I do greatly prefer the Tridentine rite. I do believe the Pauline rite is valid. Pretty much anyone’s critique I have read of the Pauline rite accepts it as valid. That goes for Fr. Aidan Nichols, Cardinal Ratzinger, Dietrich von Hildebrand, Dr. William Marra, Monsignor Klaus Gamber, and others. None of these people’s critiques center on the Priest’s intent.

In regards to Fatima, again, I hope people watch the documentary today on PAX or do further research on their own. To me the issues are separate from Fr. Gruner. I think it is quite legitimate to ask questions such as, “If Russia was really consecrated in 1984 according to Our Lady’s request, where is the evidence for her conversion in any sense of the word?”

“How is it that a country can be consecrated while deliberately omitting any mention of that country in the consecration?” “Why did Sister Lucia state in an interview after the 1984 consecration that Russia had not been consecrated according to Our Lady’s wishes?” All of these, and more, are important questions. If heaven gives a command, backed up by the Miracle of the Sun, and we choose not to obey it, it should not be shocking if the results foretold by Our Lady occur, as they seem to be and very well could continue to be in the near future.

God bless.

Amen: by the way: the late Dr. William Marra, Ph.D was my professor at Fordham when I took a course: “Augustine’s Confessions.” He was great!!! Always told it like it is: VERY BLUNT!! LIKE ME.

 

[gnome]

Thanks David, very well explained. I will not watch it either.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

misericordie:

So was Padre Pio and the founder of Opus Dei at one point: what does this prove???

Proves that you are either misinformed or trying to mislead.

I am not positive about the found of Opus Dei but Padre Pio was never suspended. He was not allowed to hear confessions and was only allowed to say Mass in the private chapel of the monastery he lived in.

But lets for the sake of argument say that you are right. Does the fact that two individuals who were under Church interdict (and obeident to it which is different than Fr Gruner) which was reversed at a later date mean that every one that is currently under Church interdict will also be vindicated? I think not and I think it is very absurd for you to even attempt to use this argument.

And I think this bears repeating, Padre Pio (don’t know the case of the found of Opus Dei but I am sure he was to) was obedient to the Church and did as told. Fr Gruner is another story all together.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

I watched it. Extremely biased documentary. Did not state that Sr. Lucia has said that the consecration was validly made. It seemed as if they were saying there’s a great conspiracy within the Church to disobey Our Lady’s orders, when it is not so.

The Consecration of Russia took place in 1984, Sr. Lucia has said that to be the case. After which the Iron Curtain failed and now people have a choice to believe or not believe.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

I was also shocked that Gerry Matatics was willing to appear on this biased documentary.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Deacon Tony560:

Wednesday is here and I refuse to watch the Pax program. I prefer to follow the teaching authority of the church and not of those who are not in union with Rome.

May God bring those back, who have strayed from his truth.
Deacon Tony SFO

I am always somewhat amazed when people refuse to listen to evidence from a differing viewpoint. It reminds me of talking to Protestant fundamentalists about Cahtolicism, and the difficulty lies not so much in refuting any arguments they might have, but attempting to get them to read or look at anything by a Catholic. It does not seem as if truth is arrived at in this way.

And since when does someone’s stance on the consecration of Russia have anything to do with the Magisterium? There are things Catholics are allowed to disagree on, which are not part of the Deposit of Faith, and thus do not have th grace of infallibility attached to them.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

to that but I think we don’t have to worry too much.

It acutally airs on December 9th at 12:00am and is only a half hour long.

It also should be airing at 9 p.m. for those who have cable or satellite.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

ByzCath:

The fall of the Iron Curtian. The end of the Soviet Union.

How is the Mass efficacious for the Church when not every members’ name is mentioned at the Mass?

Did she really? Why has Sister Lucia in subsequent interviews said that it has?

Again… (bold emphasis added)

again, “to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history.”

A lot has happened since Fatima, we are now in a different period of history.

And the Miracle of the Sun, It can not say for fact that it happened, I have heard it happened but for someone who did not see it, it is not fact.

This type of argument appears to be an attempt to raise the messages of Fatima to the level of public revelation. As when I state the Teachings of the Church on private revelation you respond back that yes that is the Teaching but then you throw out this miracle and some vague comment about “and we choose not to obey it”.

We do not have to obey it, it is private, it is not part of the Deposit of the Faith.

How has Russia improved morally or spiritually since the supposed consecration (which did not mention Russia) took place in 1984? What does the word “convert” mean? How would the people back then have understood it? What happened with our Lady of Guadalupe and Mexico?

The Mass and a consecration are two different things. Our Lady specifically asked for the consecration of Russia, and Sister Lucy has reiterated this a number of times.

I was not at Lincoln’s inaugural, yet I know he was a past president of the United States. If you want to argue that there is even a remote possibility that the Miracle of the Sun did not occur, be my guest. But when even secular newspapers carry the account, not to mention Sister Lucia testifying to it, along with numberous others, and no one saying in opposition that nothing happened, it is beyond belief that it did not occur.

Let me be specific, I do not believe, based on research, that the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has taken place. I am willing to listen to differing viewpoints. Nor do I believe the full Third Secret has been revealed.

Of course Fatima does not have to do with dogma in the sense that private revelations which are authentic do not add to or correct Catholic dogma. They may help provide evidence for Catholic dogma, but that is it.

I agree that we do not have to consecrate Russia.

Nevertheless, even though Fatima does not have to do with Public Revelation, does that really mean that we do not have to take seriously Our Lady’s request to consecrate Russia? That because it is not a part of the Deposit of the Faith we can just disobey the request and expect no consequences? That just doesn’t make any sense, nor does it sound prudent.

 

[gnome]

Brennan Doherty:

I am always somewhat amazed when people refuse to listen to evidence from a differing viewpoint. It reminds me of talking to Protestant fundamentalists about Cahtolicism, and the difficulty lies not so much in refuting any arguments they might have, but attempting to get them to read or look at anything by a Catholic. It does not seem as if truth is arrived at in this way.

as long as the differing viewpoint comes from a source which is
in communion with the Church Magisterium.
…He said to Peter and the Apostles, “He who hears you, hears Me.” “Whatever they bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.”

 

[bear06]

ByzCath:

Proves that you are either misinformed or trying to mislead.

I am not positive about the found of Opus Dei but Padre Pio was never suspended. He was not allowed to hear confessions and was only allowed to say Mass in the private chapel of the monastery he lived in.

But lets for the sake of argument say that you are right. Does the fact that two individuals who were under Church interdict (and obeident to it which is different than Fr Gruner) which was reversed at a later date mean that every one that is currently under Church interdict will also be vindicated? I think not and I think it is very absurd for you to even attempt to use this argument.

And I think this bears repeating, Padre Pio (don’t know the case of the found of Opus Dei but I am sure he was to) was obedient to the Church and did as told. Fr Gruner is another story all together.

Yes, he is misinformed. Neither one was suspended. Gruner is and he’s doing a lot of harm to the faithful. Just for the record, I take Fatima VERY seriously. I just don’t take Fr. Gruner seriously. I’m frankly not at all surprised Gerry Matatics appeared. Unfortunately, that would just go to prove the things that Mr. Keating has said about him.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

gnome:

as long as the differing viewpoint comes from a source which is
in communion with the Church Magisterium.
…He said to Peter and the Apostles, “He who hears you, hears Me.” “Whatever they bound on earth would be bound in Heaven.”

I really don’t consider Fr. Gruner to be the issue. One can investigate this issue without reading anything he has written. There are other articles and books written by people in full Communion with Rome who do not believe the Consecration has taken place. It’s a matter of weighing the evidence first and foremost.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

ByzCath:

Did she really? Why has Sister Lucia in subsequent interviews said that it has?

Whoops, missed this one. Yes, she has stated in an interview after the 1984 Consecration that it did not fulfill Our Lady’s requests. I am going off memory right now, and can get the exact quote, but I believe it was an interview published in “Sol de Fatima” magazine, which is an official magazine of the Blue Army.

As far as why, after 1989, I believe, people claim that now she said it *did *fulfill Our Lady’s requests, that is one of the questions people need to consider. Did she really contradict her previous testimony? And if she truly did, why? And why 5 years after the supposed Consecration in 1984 took place? This is why it’s good to look at both sides of the issue.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brennan Doherty:

It also should be airing at 9 p.m. for those who have cable or satellite.

Nope, not according to the listing found on the TV Guide or the PAX TV websites.

But then seeing that it is biased and full of conspiracy theories, airing at the same time the Art Bell radio show is on makes sense. After the same demographics.

 

[bear06]

Brennan Doherty:

I really don’t consider Fr. Gruner to be the issue. One can investigate this issue without reading anything he has written. There are other articles and books written by people in full Communion with Rome who do not believe the Consecration has taken place. It’s a matter of weighing the evidence first and foremost.

And exactly who are these people? I keep hearing this floated and haven’t seen a source. Are these the same people who “resist the Pope to his face”?

 

[misericordie]

bear06:

And exactly who are these people? I keep hearing this floated and haven’t seen a source. Are these the same people who “resist the Pope to his face”?

Actually no, I know of couple of local CHURCH PASTORS here in my archdiocese who are in good standing with the bishop, offer ONLY the Novus Ordo, and they say the SAME thing: NOPE, I will not mention their names.