Fatima Documentary Wed. Dec. 8 PAX TV

[HagiaSophia]

ByzCath:

That is a good thing because their opinion is no greater than a lay persons as that they just men. Their ordination does not grant them any form of infalibility.

Actually, that would be 12:00AM December 9.

Again the demographics. The Art Bell crowd.

In my area it showed at 10-11 AM in the morning and repeated on late night tv. Since it is a low budget production, this would be less expensive than buying prime time. I suggest that it well may have been “financially” more feasible for them.

 

[Marie]

I would agree that Sister Lucia is not infallible. If she has changed her mind, and now says that Russia has after all been consecrated, contradicting what she has previously said, that would not mean that Russia has actually been consecrated. I am not saying she has contradicted her previous testimony.

The lack of positive evidence for any conversion of Russia is really not that difficult to discern.

You might just drop a note to Lucia then and let her know she is probably confused and needs to clarify it for you. As she is the one who is privy to the message and she is the actual messenger, I am sure she would appreciate everyones (name removed by moderator)ut.

Since none of the so called expert’s have Our Lady in person giving them clarification(but Lucia does) I think I’ll just take her word on it.

Lucia:

Sister Lucia told the archbishop: I have already said that the consecration requested by Our Lady was done in 1984, and it has been accepted in heaven."

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Marie:

You might just drop a note to Lucia then and let her know she is probably confused and needs to clarify it for you. As she is the one who is privy to the message and she is the actual messenger, I am sure she would appreciate everyones (name removed by moderator)ut.

Since none of the so called expert’s have Our Lady in person giving them clarification(but Lucia does) I think I’ll just take her word on it.

She has clarified it:

• Sister Lucy’s September 1985 Interview in Sol de Fatima, the Blue Army’s Official Publication in Spain:

Question: “John Paul II had invited all the bishops to join in the consecration of Russia, which he was going to make at Fatima on May 13, 1982, and which he was to renew at the end of the Holy Year in Rome on March 25, 1984, before the original statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Has he not therefore done what was requested at Tuy?”

Sister Lucy: “There was no participation of all the bishops and there was no mention of Russia.”

Question: “So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?”

Sister Lucy: “No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.”

fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox2.asp

 

[MrS]

Brennan Doherty:

She has clarified it:

• Sister Lucy’s September 1985 Interview in Sol de Fatima, the Blue Army’s Official Publication in Spain:

Question: “John Paul II had invited all the bishops to join in the consecration of Russia, which he was going to make at Fatima on May 13, 1982, and which he was to renew at the end of the Holy Year in Rome on March 25, 1984, before the original statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Has he not therefore done what was requested at Tuy?”

Sister Lucy: “There was no participation of all the bishops and there was no mention of Russia.”

Question: “So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?”

Sister Lucy: “No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.”

fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox2.asp

Just like it was not done in the 40’s, when Sr Lucia said the pope did not mention Russia by name. And she said so because Mary told her.

Hang in there Brennan

 

[FrmrTrad]

It is possible that 1 Tim 1:3-7 is instructive for this general topic:

I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines or to concern themselves with myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the plan of God that is to be received by faith. The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.

Emphasis added.

 

[MrS]

FrmrTrad:

It is possible that 1 Tim 1:3-7 is instructive for this general topic:Emphasis added.

If you think it applies, go for ithttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

FrmrTrad:

It is possible that 1 Tim 1:3-7 is instructive for this general topic:Emphasis added.

Fatima is not a myth, or a genealogy. Rather a simple request was made by Our Lady for the Consecration of Russia with a clear statement as to the consequences if this was done or not.

Thus attempting to get at the heart of whether or not heaven has been obeyed in the matter of Consecrating Russia is not meaningless talk, but rather concerns all Catholics and even the entire world.

 

[Marie]

Brennan Doherty:

She has clarified it:

You are basing this by quoting her, direct from EL Gruner’s own organization. His words don’t cut it with Sister Lucia…they should not cut the mustard with anyone else who believes in Fatima either. At least get something DIRECT and FROM Sr Lucia without Gruner doing the “SHE SAID”.

Official Letter and Documentation- Sr Lucia

Before giving the sealed envelope containing the third part of the “secret” to the then Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Sister Lucia wrote on the outside envelope that it could be opened only after 1960, either by the Patriarch of Lisbon or the Bishop of Leiria. Archbishop Bertone therefore asked: “Why only after 1960? Was it Our Lady who fixed that date?” Sister Lucia replied: “It was not Our Lady. I fixed the date because I had the intuition that before 1960 it would not be understood, but that only later would it be understood. Now it can be better understood. I wrote down what I saw; however it was not for me to interpret it, but for the Pope.

When the archbishop explained that there are doubts that part of the secret remains unknown, Sister Lucia replied: “Everything has been published; there are no more secrets.”

"If I had received new revelations, I would not have communicated them to anyone, but I would have told them directly to the Holy Father," the religious added.

The group then spoke about the statements of Nicholas Gruner, a Canadian priest suspended “a divinis,” who is collecting signatures insisting that the Pope finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and alleging that this has never been done.

Sister Lucia told the archbishop: I have already said that the consecration requested by Our Lady was done in 1984, and it has been accepted in heaven."\

Lastly, the conversation turned to Sister Lucia’s personal life.

**The religious answered: How many things they attribute to me! How many things they make me do! ** They should read my book “The Appeals of the Fátima Message”]; the advice and appeals that correspond to Our Lady’s wishes are there. Prayer and penance, with great faith in God’s power, will save the world." ZE01122008

 

[FrmrTrad]

Brennan Doherty:

Fatima is not a myth

The details of what Sr said, and the means of interpreting Russia with all the intellectual confusions that naturally obtain, appear to amount to myth, speculation, and meaningless talk, especially in the context of what the Church has said.

 

[MrS]

The following are not my thoughts… they are from another, but interesting just the same:

Ask yourself honestly:

1] What does it take to change an iron will like Cardinal Ratzinger’s who, at one point in 1984 was quoted by Vittorio Messori as saying that Fatima was a clear apocalyptic message on par with the book of Revelation, but who now says that Sr. Lucia may have even been hallucinating and that Fatima, if real, is a thing of the past?

2] What does it take for someone such as Sr. Lucia who actually saw the Blessed Mother as a child, and who, for a very long time afterward told numerous popes to their faces that they had not fulfilled Our Lady’s specific request, and who for six years in the 1980s told us incessantly that the 1984 consecration still did not fulfill Our Lady’s specific request, to suddenly change her mind and say that it did?

3] What does it take for a pope who, knowing, as he has admitted from his own lips, that he should not make the same mistake as Pius XII who failed to mention “Russia” with all the bishops of the world, totally refuse to utter the name of that nation in the many consecrations and entrustments he has performed for the 25 years of his pontificate?

Along those lines, Carlos Evaristo (the man who translated Dr. Zugibe’s interview and who knows Sr. Lucia personally) has told us that Sr. Lucia is now a full-fledged, post-conciliar ecumenist who walks in lock-step with the New Order. If that is the case, then it seems we have the most logical answer to the puzzle of her contradictory testimony: Sr. Lucia has changed her mind about the consecration of Russia because, by her acceptance of the New Order, this has given her license to reinterpret past events in the light of the post-conciliar mentality. This should come as no surprise. Cardinal Ratzinger changed his mind for the same reason. The Vatican itself led the way by its own reinterpretation of the past when it proposed that the “bishop in white killed by bullets and arrows” was merely John Paul II from twenty years prior! Revisionist history has become the weapon of choice for the New Order. My guess is that Sr. Lucia, or whoever is really behind that curtain, has become so oriented toward this new way of thinking that she will also have no qualms about the inter-faith center now being built in her hometown.

So many questions, so little time…

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Marie:

You are basing this by quoting her, direct from EL Gruner’s own organization. His words don’t cut it with Sister Lucia…they should not cut the mustard with anyone else who believes in Fatima either. At least get something DIRECT and FROM Sr Lucia without Gruner doing the “SHE SAID”.

Official Letter and Documentation- Sr Lucia

The quote comes directly from the September, 1985 issue of Sol de Fatima, the official magazine of the Blue Army in Spain. Obviously, the Blue Army in Spain is not connected with Fr. Gruner’s organization. I merely quoted it from Christopher Ferrara’s article on Fr. Gruner’s website because that is where I found it. Just because I found it there in no way invalidates the quote from the Blue Army publication. Thus the quote definitely does cut the mustard. And it’s not the only piece of evidence regarding what Sister Lucia has said regarding the 1984 Consecration.

As far as the interview you quoted, at best this means we now have to attempt to explain why Sister Lucia is contradicting her previous testimony. For an analysis of the interview I recommend this article by Christopher Ferrara:

Let Us Hear the Witness, for Heaven’s Sake

    **If there is nothing to hide concerning the Message of Fatima, why is the only living eyewitness to the Fatima revelations never allowed to speak to the faithful in person? And why does the recent secretly conducted, two-hour interview with Sister Lucy — for which no transcript is provided — contain only *44 words* from the visionary herself concerning the Consecration of Russia and disclosure of the Third Secret?**

by Christopher A. Ferrara, Esq.
​

fatimacrusader.com/cr70/cr70pg34.asp

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

FrmrTrad:

The details of what Sr said, and the means of interpreting Russia with all the intellectual confusions that naturally obtain, appear to amount to myth, speculation, and meaningless talk, especially in the context of what the Church has said.

I think it can actually be kept very simple. Heaven asked for the consecration of Russia, not the world. In order to consecrate something it is only common sense that you need to name what you are consecrating. If the 1984 consecration fulfilled heaven’s request, then we should have seen some positive evidence for that in regards to the conversion of Russia.

 

[MrS]

There is another reason to question whether the consecration of Russian has been accomplished. Technically speaking, if from Our Lady’s 1929 words to Sister Lucia, “consecrate Russia to My Immaculate Heart,” we are to understand that:

(a) Russia, singly and officially, is to be named in the consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary; and,

(b) that the Pope, with all the Bishops of the world simultaneously participating from their respective dioceses, are to consecrate Russia,

then obviously Russia could not have been consecrated. The Vatican admits as much. On June 26, 2000, the Vatican asserted only that the consecration of the WORLD by Pope John Paul II in 1984, which did not mention Russia by name and which merely informed the bishops that the consecration was performed, has been sufficient to replace or fulfill Our Lady’s request. Replacing the consecration of Russian with the consecration of the “world” was a decision the Church made on her own. She received no divine directive to that effect. Thus the crucial question remains: Does the Church have that right? And if she does not, then what are the consequences for her presumption?

 

[MrS]

In the Second Fatima secret Our Lady told the three child-seers:

In order to save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If people do what I ask, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war [World War I] is going to end. But if people do not stop offending God, another even worse, will begin in the reign of Pius XI [World War II]. This prophecy is very intriguing, since at the time Our Lady gave it, the future Pius XI was not even a cardinal at the time. No one but heaven could have known that he would become pope and what name he would assign to himself. Unfortunately, during his reign people did not stop offending God, Pius XI did not consecrate Russia, and, as promised, World War II came upon the world - with a vengeance directed by God Himself. Pius XI had already declared in October 1930 that Fatima was “worthy of belief,” but for some reason he failed to consecrate Russia in his remaining nine years as pontiff, dying in February 1939.

Sister Lucia, the last surviving Fatima visionary, told the next pontiff, Pius XII, that “If this [consecration of Russia] is done, Our Lady promises to convert Russia and there will be peace.” Pius XII performed a consecration in 1942, but it was not to the specifications requested by Our Lady. In May 1952, Sister Lucia reported that Mary appeared to her again seeking for the consecration of Russia. Our Lady stated: “Make it known to the Holy Father that I am always awaiting the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without the consecration, Russia will not be able to convert, nor will the world have peace” (Il Pellegrinaggio Della Meravigle, p. 440 (Rome, 1960))[2]. Once again, Pius XII failed to do the consecration properly. Although World War II came to an end, not surprisingly, the Korean War followed right on its heels, traced by Russia’s relentless pursuit of world domination, which they would maintain for the rest of the century.

 

[MrS]

Compared to what happened in the failures of Pius XI and Pius XII to consecrate Russia, there is little assurance, based on what the Vatican has stated, that the consecration of the world in 1984 suffices for the consecration of Russia. These suspicions are being echoed by a large number of dedicated Catholics. One of the more prominent is Mother Angelica of EWTN. Mother Angelica has been a stalwart for orthodox Catholicism. Her whole apostolate has been blessed by God because she has not been afraid to tell the truth and admonish the wayward. In commenting on whether the Vatican has given us the truth about Fatima, Mother Angelica, speaking to a priest on her program, said:

As for the Secret [the Third Secret of Fatima], well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told you! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. Because I think its scary. For her to reveal such ominous reservations about what the Vatican is claiming means that she is troubled by what she has heard, or, shall we say, what she has not heard. Her emotion is expressed best by the word “scary.” Yes, when one thinks about the staggering implications of “not getting the whole thing,” it is very “scary,” in fact, it is horrifying. Unfortunately, if it is true, the most horrifying thing is contemplating what kind of ecclesiastical-political machinery it would take to orchestrate a cover-up the size of Fatima.

 

[Marie]

Brennan Doherty:

Let Us Hear the Witness, for Heaven’s Sake!

I can certainly agree with that ONE statement. It is the exact statement Sr Lucia made about all the so called experts putting words in her mouth…i.e. Gruner and Comapny.

**The religious answered: How many things they attribute to me! How many things they make me do! They should read my book ** “The Appeals of the Fátima Message”]; the advice and appeals that correspond to Our Lady’s wishes are there. Prayer and penance, with great faith in God’s power, will save the world." ZE01122008

The only thing I find SCARY about the whole deal is; “How Satan”, is persecuting Lucia, through a less than venerable priest. One who is making it his life’s work to cast aspersions on her and Fatima, (not to mention dissing the Pope and the true leaders of the Holy Catholic Church. All the while claiming to be a legitimate spokesman for her and Fatima. A man who HAS NEVER been associated with her or Fatima in any way, except as and agent of confusion to suit his own plan.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I can certainly agree with that ONE statement. It is the exact statement Sr Lucia made about all the so called experts putting words in her mouth…i.e. Gruner and Comapny.

Okay, I am going to paste in the quote I gave above again. Notice that the interview is not being conducted by Fr. Gruner or anyone else associated with him. The interview is not stating, “She said…” and then paraphrasing her. She is being quoted verbatim. Thus no one is putting words in her mouth:

• Sister Lucy’s September 1985 Interview in Sol de Fatima, the Blue Army’s Official Publication in Spain:

Question: “John Paul II had invited all the bishops to join in the consecration of Russia, which he was going to make at Fatima on May 13, 1982, and which he was to renew at the end of the Holy Year in Rome on March 25, 1984, before the original statue of Our Lady of Fatima. Has he not therefore done what was requested at Tuy?”

Sister Lucy: “There was no participation of all the bishops and there was no mention of Russia.”

Question: “So the consecration was not done as requested by Our Lady?”

Sister Lucy: “No. Many bishops attached no importance to this act.”

 

[Marie]

Brennan Doherty:

Okay, I am going to paste in the quote I gave above again. Notice that the interview is not being conducted by Fr. Gruner or anyone else associated with him.

I think that was the interview by the bogus someone or other(can’t recall his name right now) who claimed to have interviewed her and it was proven false and refuted. He printed 2 pamplets…all garbage, which set off the whole fiasco…Gruner took it up as well for his dis-information campaign.

Now facts are facts. One either believes Sister Lucy…who accepted DEATH by boiling in oil as a child, rather than BETRAY Our Lady, or one believes the whole thing was a lie from the get go. Sister Lucia is still the same person to whom Our Lady gave the message…she is still the ONLY one who can speak to Our Lady about it and she says it was OKed by Our Lady. Thats the bottom line. No one, priest nor Pope nor the Devil himself can get her to lie, if Fatima is true.

I’ll stick with Lucia. I happen to believe in Fatima. Gruner and Company only want to exploit it. Satan wants to destroy it. They are doing a nice job for his cause.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Marie:

I think that was the interview by the bogus someone or other(can’t recall his name right now) who claimed to have interviewed her and it was proven false and refuted. He printed 2 pamplets…all garbage, which set off the whole fiasco…Gruner took it up as well for his dis-information campaign.

Well, I would love to see any refutation of that article. If you come across one, let me know. Also, what she said in that article is very much in line with what she has said a number of times previously, basically that Russia (and not the world) needed to be named specifically in union with all the Bishops of the world for the consecration to be valid.

 

[Marie]

Brennan Doherty:

Well, I would love to see any refutation of that article. If you come across one, let me know. Also, what she said in that article is very much in line with what she has said a number of times previously, basically that Russia (and not the world) needed to be named specifically in union with all the Bishops of the world for the consecration to be valid.

Gotta hang on to that huh?

I believe, **even if ** she may have said that, she was talking from her impressions at the time. I would imagine "Our Lady, if anyone, set her straight and this would be why she has stated under oath and in writing that it "WAS DONE correctly and accepted by Heaven.

It still boils down to is Sister Lucia a liar, or Gruner and Company?

I’m sticking with Sister Lucia!