Fatima Documentary Wed. Dec. 8 PAX TV

[MrS]

FrmrTrad:

My goodness, is our faith to be governed by such analyses as these? This material is highly, highly interpretive, is generally premised upon opposition to the magisterium of the Church, and is characterized by public encouragement of schismatic attitudes. We are called to “avoid profane and silly myths” and to “train … for devotion, for … devotion is valuable in every respect, since it holds a promise of life both for the present and for the future” (I Tim 4:7-8). We should “be absorbed in them [these matters of spiritual growth] so that ]our progress may be evident to everyone” (1 Tim 4:15). Traditionalists seem to be in some ways backwards; frequently they lack charity. They are vitriolic not infrequently; and they utterly lack docility to the Holy Father. How does indulgence in fantasies about the Church help one’s spiritual progress? Is any improvement evident in those who follow this course? Many traditionalists are new converts to the Faith; new converts are at particular risk of conceit and the devil’s punishment (1 Tim 3:6). Is more prayer (cf. Calls by Sr Lucia) and less exuberance in bizarre ecclesiological theories and relationships warranted?

I don’t know about you, but my faith is not subject to the humanity of those in the Church. Sounds like a “Traditionalist” hurt you somewhere along the line and your goal is to “get even” somehow.

 

[bear06]

Those who say no, attack no one, but pose the tough questions and then are accused of being scismatic or calling the Pope a liar.

I dont’ have a problem with people who “pose the tough questions”. I have a problem with people who try and supply unsubstantiated responses to the tough questions as factual truth. This is pretty much the make-up of fatima.org

 

[MrS]

HagiaSophia:

If memory serves me (and often it doesn’t), they asked bishops to refuse to incardinate him, thus he could not “work” in any diocese.
I didn’t like it then, I don’t like it now, and speaks far more to political chicanery than anything helpful to the Church. He was shabbily treated at a conference he had paid for and sponsored, guests were forced to cancel and all in all I would say there has been a great deal of mean spiritedness and downright spite directed towards him by some in the hierarchy. Their behavior toward him has always made me wonder more and more as I reviewed the evidence particularly in light of statements made prior to the “secrets” disclosure.

Fr Gruner has provided annual pilgrimages to this shrine, whether one agrees with all of his views on the apparitions, one cannot deny that he has spent most of life fostering devotion to it and I find it odd that so many others on the far left are treated so much more kindly.

As one cardinal recently remarked to another in Rome: Why does everyone you invite to speak at our theology conferences turn out to be a heretic? I asked myself the same thing.

HagiaSophia you are a gem. Always so rational… and refreshing. You seem to have a knack of presenting both views in the same light. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

 

[Marie]

MrS:

Then I guess that is the problem. He is not tearing down Fatima. Again, the statements support the reality of Fatima, the miracle, the apparitions, AND the instructions from our Lady to Lucy.

The problem is : Has Russia ( not the"'world") been consecrated. If so, when. If not, why not.

Those who say yes, attack Gruner or whoever

Those who say no, attack no one, but pose the tough questions and then are accused of being scismatic or calling the Pope a liar.

What a way to try and win an discussion!

I respect your views Marie. But with all the confusion, you might be seriously misled. I still think we all accept Fatima as real. I found it interesting that the documentary talked of the two Fatima miracles as awesome. First the movement of the sum, and second the fact that no one was incinerated!

And the fact of Lucia being declared a SEER, and believable by Holy Mother church. Now, suddenly, El Gruner and company call her Confused, mistaken, i.e…a liar. Yep! That really is the bottom line. Satan is thrilled. I am not, Sister Lucia is not, but it’s to be expected. Satan is losing, (in Gods time, not ours.) Meantime, El Gruner and conspiracy crew are hacking away souls from the TRUTH of Fatima.

As to being mis-lead…I feel secure in my faith enough not to be swayed by late comer dissident priests nor laity. Our Lady of Fatima and the Devotion to her has stood me in good stead, all of my life. I refuse to become unfaithful to John Paul II, Holy Mother Church and to Our Lady, just to suit El Gruners agenda.

 

[Marie]

bear06:

I dont’ have a problem with people who “pose the tough questions”. I have a problem with people who try and supply unsubstantiated responses to the tough questions as factual truth. This is pretty much the make-up of fatima.org

BINGO!

 

[HagiaSophia]

FrmrTrad:

The very title of the program suggests speculation: How can the theological significance of such things be other than speculative?

Peace is the very keynote of the apparitions: and if you don’t like that you will have to take it up with the Lady herself, it is she who talks about two wars and peace during her visits. She introduces the subject and I suspect for good reason.

FrmrTrad:

As we have seen, the Fatima ‘conspiracy’ is led by those who doubt that Vatican II was Ecumenical. Why do you assert with such assurance (1 Tim 1:7) that despite the light of Church teachings on ecumenism, the implications of consecration must perforce be what they might have been in a previous epoch? Doesn’t the Church get to decide such matters?

I think when you are dealing with the Theotokos, she gets to decide what is going to be discussed and knows the implications of what she asks.

FrmrTrad:

If Sr Lucy had this vision, which we agree she had, why isn’t she willing to be a martyr if she is now being misrepresented?

Because m’dear, the poor lady is 94 or 98 or somwhere in there. A fragile, reserved woman who has lived literally under full closure and a greal deal of silence by instruction from authorities in the church. I doubt that anything but messages from the hierarchy are allowed - she probably has not a clue what papers or media or anyone else is saying.

FrmrTrad:

Wouldn’t that be a purer action to expect on the part of someone blessed with such a vision, such a visitation? Countless martyrs had no such vision; what kind of doubting Thomas does she have to be, to reject what she has seen? It would be so easy to refuse to eat, for example.

I am afraid you do not only understand who gets to set the subject matter, but the worthiness or unworthiness of the recipients involved with an apparition. The three seers of La Salette lived sad little lives afterward - one dined out for the rest of her life on it, and the other poor child took to drink and unemployment. None of them ever retracted one word of their reported apparition at the best or at the worst of times. It really is not for us to judge who gets to talk to the Mother of God and what they talk about methinks.

FrmrTrad:

The Church has the keys and is charged with opening and shutting. The Church is in charge of Church affairs. And how can you know what “divine directives” the Church has received? Are you apprised of all possible visions? How do you know, for example, that the Holy Father has not in fact received a visit from the Blessed Mother? How can a question like “Does the Church have that right” be anything other than speculative?

In all candor, I find the above paragraph of yours pure personal speculation.

FrmrTrad:

The inherently speculative nature of the inquiry appears to qualify as a deviation to vain babbling (1 Tim 1:6) .

Actually one might say that about some of the posts in this thread as well.

 

[MrS]

Marie:

BINGO!

I thought the Church frowned on bingo? Or is that Knights? Or is it just okay if held in non-smoking halls:whacky:

Just trying to lighten up this thread… perhaps we can get off Gruner and back to the real subject. Consecration … yes or no. Sr Lucia says both.

 

[Marie]

HagiaSophia:

Actually one might say that about some of the posts in this thread as well.

AHA! At last we all can agree…LOL! At least on that aspect!

 

[Marie]

MrS:

I thought the Church frowned on bingo? Or is that Knights? Or is it just okay if held in non-smoking halls:whacky:

Just trying to lighten up this thread… perhaps we can get off Gruner and back to the real subject. Consecration … yes or no. Sr Lucia says both.

Not our parish! The Knights would be up in arms! Say it isn’t so…

But, Sister Lucia did say : “The Consecration was accepted by Heaven.” That I believe. As to my opinion of Bingo! …Never play the game myself. I always drop all my little markers and can’t hear what number was called. I’m getting old…but I still test out at a nice above average intellegence level. And by the way…"Holy Mother Church has declared Sister Lucia…

“Sister Lucia, who will be 95 on March 22, was in great form – lucid and vivacious,” the Vatican envoy said.

So I think the senility innuendo’s are just more of Satan’s lies. Like I said: I follow Holy Mother Church as Christ directed…El Gruner’s name was never mentioned as the successor to Peter by anyone, least of all Our Blessed Lord.

 

[EUSTACHIUS]

Marie,

On this thread and others you have accused Fr. Gruner and other Traditional Catholics as being heretics, in apostasy, in schism, as Satan helper.

Please ponder these verse

Matthew 7:1-3
Judge not, that you may not be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?

Matthew 12:22-26
Then was offered to him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, so that he spoke and saw. And all the multitudes were amazed, and said: Is not this the son of David? But the Pharisees hearing it, said: This man casteth not out devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?

Genesis 3:15
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

I have read the Fatima Crusader, and Fr. Gruner does more to prompt devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Rosary than most other apostolates. I have receive many green scapulars, brown scapulars, medals and prayer cards from the Fatima Center. He does a great deal to encourage people to perform the First Five Saturday Devotion to make reparations to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Satan on the other hand would never encourage people fly to Mary and pray the rosary. Satan and the Blessed Virgin are in complete opposition and it would hinder his cause for people to turn to Mary for help.

Debate the facts. Don’t slander the the messenger.

Where in the Testament did God ever allow the Israelites to get away with not following his command precisely?

In Russia right now the average woman has 7-10 abortions. You call this a conversion? We are at War. The EU cannot even acknowledge its Christian heritage. Mass attendence has plummeted. Vocations to Religious life have plummeted…

 

[MrS]

Not our parish! The Knights would be up in arms! Say it isn’t so…

But, Sister Lucia did say : “The Consecration was accepted by Heaven.” That I believe. As to my opinion of Bingo! …Never play the game myself. I always drop all my little markers and can’t hear what number was called. I’m getting old…but I still test out at a nice above average intellegence level.

Okay. We agree. No one doubts that there was a consecration in 1984. No one doubts JPII did it. No one doubts he consecrated the whole world. No one doubts he is a holy man, he performed a holy consecration, and it was accepted by heaven. I would be concerned if Sr Lucia had said it was NOT accepted by heaven.

Did he or any pope consecrate Russia? Russia, not the world. Russia, like Portugal was consecrated - by name and specific. Did the bishops of the world join him in that specific consecration? Are these details not what Sr Lucia brought up when saying prior popes had NOT complied with our Lady’s wishes? These questions have nothing to do with Gruner, Traditionism etc etc. Just straight questions we all really know the answers to.

When I was out of the Church I was drawn into a Catholic book store and to a statue of our Lady of Fatima. I put $10 down and paid some almost every week until the statue was paid for. I really did not have the money for that. But it happened. And with every payment, and often since then I look at that reminder of the Mother of God and hear her only message… do as my Son tells you. Not Gruner, not JPII They are people and human and suffer with errors as we all do. So we pray.

(but I still think we need to have Russia consecrated)

 

[Marie]

(but I still think we need to have Russia consecrated)

I figure that will come about…just as Our Lady said, “When it is almost too late.” I don’t see the Vatican, nor Lucia, changing the request to Pray for Russia…so I still do it the old fashioned way. I pray for Russia.

btw…My Mom bought me a statue of Our Lady at a rummage sale for 50 cents many years ago…It’s was dated (1917)

Our Lady has been very Faithful and her Statue has proved a guiding light to me through a lot of seemingly insurmountable obstacles and tragedies. Beginning the day after my Mom bought it. Mom went from being in good health to a complete nightmare in 24 hours.

But that poor bedraggled statue, kept me praying and hoping and trusting through all the terrible suffering of my Mom. She never got to see it fixed and looking like new again. She lost her eyesight, because of a massive stroke the very next day and three days later suffered an aneurism.

And as Paul Harvey would say…“Now for the rest of the story.” My mother was very devoted to Our Lady under the title of Our Lady of Fatima. While Mom was fighting for her life, the statue was healed…by a Miracle. When I took it into my Mom’s hospital room to place it by her, all the scratches and dents were gone. It had no paint left on it when we bought it, but all the colors came back.

I took that to mean, that Mom was loved dearly by God and Our Lady for her devotion. She died a beautiful death, saying her last Rosary with a smile and peace beyond describing. She believed fiercely in Sister Lucia’s words that “Heaven accepted the Consecration.” She was happy she lived to see it done.

 

[MrS]

Marie:

I took that to mean, that Mom was loved dearly by God and Our Lady for her devotion. She died a beautiful death, saying her last Rosary with a smile and peace beyond describing. She believed fiercely in Sister Lucia’s words that “Heaven accepted the Consecration.” She was happy she lived to see it done.

And now she knows for sure. Thanks for sharing. My mom was born in 1917, as was my late father. Mom is 87 and suffering from dementia. But her inability to find the right words to say disappears when a Hail Mary comes to her lips. I know it was her prayers that keep me from losing God forever. And yes, her name is Mary. Be so kind as to include her in your prayers. I keep telling her she is still here because God is not done with her yet.

 

[Marie]

MrS:

And now she knows for sure. Thanks for sharing. My mom was born in 1917, as was my late father. Mom is 87 and suffering from dementia. But her inability to find the right words to say disappears when a Hail Mary comes to her lips. I know it was her prayers that keep me from losing God forever. And yes, her name is Mary. Be so kind as to include her in your prayers. I keep telling her she is still here because God is not done with her yet.

You got it. I won’t have a problem remembering her name…My Mom’s middle name was Mary.

 

[bear06]

Mother Angelica, speaking to a priest on her program, said:

As for the Secret [the Third Secret of Fatima], well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told you! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. Because I think its scary.
​

Here again, site your source. It doesn’t even mention who the priest was. Somebody said “Mother Angelica said” and we’re just supposed to believe it’s true. The only site I could find that on was a site that doubts the consecration. Surprise, surprise.​

 

[bear06]

MrS:

I thought the Church frowned on bingo? Or is that Knights? Or is it just okay if held in non-smoking halls:whacky:

Just trying to lighten up this thread… perhaps we can get off Gruner and back to the real subject. Consecration … yes or no. Sr Lucia says both.

Ahhhhhhhhh!!! OK, maybe I missed it. Where again is the proof that Sr. Lucia said both?

 

[HagiaSophia]

MrS:

the Sodano apparatus.

Whenever his name appears - I start wondering…about a lot of things.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Marie:

And the fact of Lucia being declared a SEER, and believable by Holy Mother church. Now, suddenly, El Gruner and company call her Confused, mistaken, i.e…a liar. Yep! That really is the bottom line. Satan is thrilled. I am not, Sister Lucia is not, but it’s to be expected. Satan is losing, (in Gods time, not ours.) Meantime, El Gruner and conspiracy crew are hacking away souls from the TRUTH of Fatima.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one: The TRUTH of the apparitions are three: the apparition of the Theotokis; the miracle of the sun and the messages. Fr. Gruner has dedicated his entire ministry to these signal facts. No one is trying to deny or obfuscate them.

The crux of the disagreement is if the consecration was done as requested. So I fail to see Satan as hacking away at this miracle event when all some are asking is for a consecration to be done specifically naming Russia - hardly seems like something Satan would be asking us for. It simply is not logical.

There are certain facts and comments that lead honest people to disagree and to wonder about the totality of what was released and the consecration. Talking about it hardly makes anyone tools of Satan, heretics or trying to destroy Fatima.

 

[Marie]

bear06:

Here again, site your source. It doesn’t even mention who the priest was. Somebody said “Mother Angelica said” and we’re just supposed to believe it’s true. The only site I could find that on was a site that doubts the consecration. Surprise, surprise.

:tiphat: The usual suspect. Sigh! Original is not El Gruners style.

 

[Marie]

Yes, Virginia, there are bad people who are Evil
This Rock:

We need to be clear about one thing: Not all new movements that call themselves Catholic are good. Only those approved by the Church or seeking Church approval while staying faithful to the magisterium are worthwhile. The proof that the Church’s scrutiny means something is the fact that some groups are found not to be “of God.”

For instance, Archbishop Marcel LeFebvre’s Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) is a schismatic sect because, in open rebellion against the Holy See, ordaining priests and bishops without the Pope’s permission. The Vatican has worked strenuously to end the schism and bring the SSPX back into full communion with the Church. Other organizations devoted to the old Mass remain one with the Church, but the SSPX has resisted.

Another example of a group found wanting is Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s International Fatima Rosary Crusade. Father Gruner’s priestly faculties have been suspended since 1996. His group has been in conflict with the Church for two decades. Essentially Fr. Gruner has accused the Holy Father of lying about the Fatima message and its application in our times.

Though these groups can seem faithful to the magisterium, in truth they reject the Church’s authority at the local level, be it from their pastor or their bishop. Rather than taking up the apostolate of evangelization, they remove themselves from the Church and the world.

And El Gruner is very cozy with the SSPX and Vice versa. The Sharks swim together. Essentially Fr. Gruner has accused the Holy Father of **lying ** about the Fatima message and its application in our times. And his latest twist of truth is to persuade people that Sister Lucia is mistaken, or confused, or old and frail. UM! HM! That is Evil at it’s usual work for the usual suspect.