Fatima Documentary Wed. Dec. 8 PAX TV

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EUSTACHIUS:
I have read the Fatima Crusader, and Fr. Gruner does more to prompt devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Rosary than most other apostolates… Satan on the other hand would never encourage people fly to Mary and pray the rosary.
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The devotion promoted is associated with rejecting the magisterium of the Church – a boon for the father of lies.
 
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MrS:
I don’t know about you, but my faith is not subject to the humanity of those in the Church. Sounds like a “Traditionalist” hurt you somewhere along the line and your goal is to “get even” somehow.
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As hard as you may find it to believe, some of us are actually as concerned about the souls being led away from the Church by the rad-Trads as we are the liberals. My goal is to defend the constant teaching of the Church pre and post Vatican II. I am greatly tired of those who try to pit one mass against another on the rad-Trad and liberal side.
 
OK, I have been trying to read all these posts, but because of time restrictions, I’ve had to skim over them.

Having said that, I did watch the program, taped it in fact, so I plan to watch it again. (kids are noisy and you miss alot)

I object to putting conspiracy theories into people’s heads. I think, present the info, then let people decide themselves. The human race is alot smarter than given credit for. (granted, many don’t use the intelligence God gave them)

Without adding ad hominum remarks about Fr Gruner, which are not relevant anyway, I would say that there are a few things that do not add up for me.
  1. I believe Sr Lucia has stated that the consecration has been done. If she has said otherwise, fine. But I cannot figure out how a child of 9 years old could stand up in front of the authorities, when she thought that her 2 cousins were dead being boiled in oil and she next, and NOT lie, but then tell a falsehood when older??? I think she has stated more than once that the consecration has been done.
  2. If private revelations are not required by the Church to be accepted by the faithful, why is there such a fuss about this? Why don’t we all PRAY harder, and be obedient?
  3. Sure, Fatima was a blessing given to all of us, but I think Sr. Lucia is the one who has to say whether or not the consecration has been done since she is the only one who would know. I would not. Seems to me in that respect, she is more culpable than I.
 
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Marie:
Gotta hang on to that huh? 😛 😃

I believe, **even if **she may have said that, she was talking from her impressions at the time. I would imagine "Our Lady, if anyone, set her straight and this would be why she has stated under oath and in writing that it "WAS DONE correctly and accepted by Heaven.

It still boils down to is Sister Lucia a liar, or Gruner and Company?

I’m sticking with Sister Lucia! 😉
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Hi,

Again, if you come across a refutation of the article from Spain’s Blue Army magazine, I would be glad to see it.

I, nor anyone else I know, is calling Sister Lucia a liar. Even if she has changed her mind, I would not consider her a liar. Also, these issues are separate from Father Gruner.
 
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bear06:
I dont’ have a problem with people who “pose the tough questions”. I have a problem with people who try and supply unsubstantiated responses to the tough questions as factual truth. This is pretty much the make-up of fatima.org
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I don’t see how someone can read this article, for an example:

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox1.asp

and maintain that it is unsubstantiated, even if one disagrees with the conclusion.
 
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bear06:
If Christopher Ferrara is not a schismatic I’d be shocked! Yes, of course, no formal proclamation has been made. I hope that people don’t believe there has to be one for somebody to be schismatic. I read a canon law opinion not too long ago on the authors of “We Resist…” and how they could be canonically declared in schism. I think it was in the 2002 or 03 CLSA Advisories and Opinions.
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I have never heard Christopher Ferrara deny any dogma of the faith or repudiate the office of the Papacy (as with the Protestants or Orthodox, for instance).
 
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bear06:
I’ve seen reports of people saying she changed her mind. I’ve even it heard said that there is a picture of a letter saying something contrary to Russia being consecrated. Where are they? You’d think those pretty pictures would be on www.fatima.org if they existed. All we have now is one person saying it is so. Don’t you get it? No proof of Sr. Lucia saying that the '84 consecration wasn’t valid (most rad-Trads just say that she was coerced) and yet we have several letters saying it was done. This is where the “conspiracy theory” labels come from.
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One person? No, far more than one.

Okay, go here:

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox2.asp

scroll down to near the middle, and see a picture of a letter in Sister Lucia’s own handwriting to Father Umberto stating that Our Lady asked only for the Consecration of Russia.
 
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bear06:
You’re behind in the debates. I’d do a forum search for the Ottoviani intervention. Just to catch you up. Cardinal Ottaviani’s original remarks were based on a rough draft. He approved of the Pauline Rite in later letters. The rad-Trads believe he was coerced, or that he was to blind, old and feeble to know what he was doing. Yet another conspiracy theory!
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Part of the Instruction of the Roman Missal was changed in response to the Ottoviani Intervention. Not a single word of the Mass was, and most of the Ottoviani Intervention was directed at the liturgy itself. Thus the critique of the new liturgy by Cardinal Ottoviani is still relevant as that was not a rough draft.
 
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bear06:
Here again, site your source. It doesn’t even mention who the priest was. Somebody said “Mother Angelica said” and we’re just supposed to believe it’s true. The only site I could find that on was a site that doubts the consecration. Surprise, surprise.
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Okay, here is the exact date of the quote from Mother Angelica along with a bit of a lengthier quote:

Let us recall Mother Angelica’s words on May 16, 2001,…
As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. *Because I think it’s scary. *And I don’t think the Holy See is going to say something that does not happen, that might happen. And then what does it do if it doesn’t happen? I mean the Holy See cannot afford to make prophecies. . . Something’s gonna happen soon. It could be twenty years before it happens. So to God “soon” could be a thousand years. We don’t know that.

http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/fg/perspective103.asp
 
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FrmrTrad:
The devotion promoted is associated with rejecting the magisterium of the Church – a boon for the father of lies.
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How is the question of whether or not Russia has been consecrated a part of the Magisterium of the Church?
 
Thanks, Brennan,

I was busier today, and was just getting to the sites to give the references… thanks for doing so.
 
Translation

Reverend Father Umberto,

In answer to your letter, I shall clarify
things: (hmmm! So where is HIS letter so we know what she was asked to clarify???
Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request,
referred only to the consecration of
Russia.(True-Her original request was for Russia- so what, everyone knows that…notice that time frame?)
In the letter I wrote to the Holy Father,
on the instruction of my confessor, I asked
for the consecration of the world with ex-
plicit mention of Russia. (Again-no secret there)
Yours devotedly, in union of prayer.
Coimbra, 13 April 1980.(and then there is the date…1980)
Sister Lucia.

We have no clue what question he asked her. We have no idea what Our Lady has said to her in the ensueing years. The letter was only about the original request, before the Consecration etc.

ZIP! - Satan tries to confound again. El Gruner is a master at that. :rolleyes:
 
Brennan Doherty:
How is the question of whether or not Russia has been consecrated a part of the Magisterium of the Church?
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Please understand that FrmrTrad appears to have been offended by a rad-trad somewhere along the line, and has seen fit to keep the burr under his saddle.
 
Brennan Doherty:
I have never heard Christopher Ferrara deny any dogma of the faith or repudiate the office of the Papacy (as with the Protestants or Orthodox, for instance).
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You do not have the proper definition of schism.
schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]
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Marie:
Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request,
referred only to the consecration of
Russia.(True-Her original request was for Russia- so what, everyone knows that…notice that time frame?)

ZIP! - Satan tries to confound again. El Gruner is a master at that. :rolleyes:
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Marie, you aren’t implying that it is Mary who dropped her first request for a Russia consecration in favor of one for the world instead, are you??

El Gruner??? still. you may not admire him or even like him at all, but he is a priest forever.
 
Brennan Doherty:
One person? No, far more than one.

Okay, go here:

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox2.asp

scroll down to near the middle, and see a picture of a letter in Sister Lucia’s own handwriting to Father Umberto stating that Our Lady asked only for the Consecration of Russia.
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Uh, if you look at the date on the letter it is from 1980. The consecration didn’t take place until 1984 and this is what the Church and Sr. Lucia says.
 
Brennan Doherty:
Part of the Instruction of the Roman Missal was changed in response to the Ottoviani Intervention. Not a single word of the Mass was, and most of the Ottoviani Intervention was directed at the liturgy itself. Thus the critique of the new liturgy by Cardinal Ottoviani is still relevant as that was not a rough draft.
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Where do you get this information from?

How about we just quote Cardinal Ottaviani:
I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your ‘Doctrinal Note’ [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS." (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Documentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343)
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The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS." (In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 1970)
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FrmrTrad:
The devotion promoted is associated with rejecting the magisterium of the Church – a boon for the father of lies.
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So you mean to tell me that if you pray the rosary, wear a brown scapular or miraculous medal, perform the first five saturday devotion your rejecting magisterium of the Church? I guess that mean the Holy Father is reject the magisterium too!
 
Brennan Doherty:
Okay, here is the exact date of the quote from Mother Angelica along with a bit of a lengthier quote:

Let us recall Mother Angelica’s words on May 16, 2001,…
As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. *Because I think it’s scary. *And I don’t think the Holy See is going to say something that does not happen, that might happen. And then what does it do if it doesn’t happen? I mean the Holy See cannot afford to make prophecies. . . Something’s gonna happen soon. It could be twenty years before it happens. So to God “soon” could be a thousand years. We don’t know that.

http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/fg/perspective103.asp
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When I say evidence, I mean that the source is cited and can be found in its entirety someplace other than a one sided source. Did you happen to notice that it doesn’t even say what priest she was talking to much less than what show it was?

Let’s take a look at Mother Angelica. No Father Gruner, no fatima.org stuff on their site. How many times has Fr. Fox been on Mother Angelica’s show. Oh, many. Let’s see, if Mother Angelica loved Fr. Gruner and disagreed with Fr. Fox, where is the evidence!
 
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