Fatima, the work of satan?

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How on earth did a discussion on Fatima turn into a discussion on whether the Jews will be saved or not? :confused: Did I miss something while I was away?

Regarding devotion to the immaculate heart and salvation. A person can be an agent through which the salvation won by Jesus on the Cross can be applied to another individual.

James 5:20

“You should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering **will save ** the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

Is the person who saves another from death the actual savior of that person? No! That person’s savior is Jesus Christ! However, God can use someone as an instrument to bring someone to Christ and hence salvation. Devotion to the Immaculate Heart does not end in Mary. It represents a means by which we can grow in our saving relationship with Jesus Christ through the assistance of her prayers.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Melchior said:
No need to yell.

Plus using alone in the German tranaslation was the “only” way to make it fit linguistically and contextually it does not alter the textual meaning one ioda. “Alone” linguistically contrasts to “works of the law”. So this is a just a (I really hate using this in internet discussion - but I must) strawman.
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If this is the case, then Martin’s argument was certainly side-tracked by people who felt that man’s Salvation is only through one’s faith.

I’d have to admit, Martin Luther’s testament that a man could have sex 1000 times a day and still not lose his salvation sure added to the context of this “mis-interpretation”. (If I’m mis-representing ML’s statement, feel free to correct me via PM or whatever).
 
NotWorthy said:
Are you sure of this? As I mentioned, the Holy of Holies was still venerated. And the Ark did not just slide off into oblivion. I understand that Jeremiah took the Ark and hid it (I may be mistaken, but this is detailed in one of the Deuterocanonical Books). Jewish Tradition said the Ark would be found when the Messiah returned.

Boy, they didn’t know how right they were!!! (but that’s another thread) 🙂
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If I have a chance I’ll do a quick refresher tonight, I am wrong on occasion as has been proven…😛 , The point was that devotion wasn’t given to the ark itself for any other reason than it was where God would dwell among his people and communicate with moses etc.
 
mikeledes said:
James 5:20

“You should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering **will save ** the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

God Bless,
Michael
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How on earth have I not seen this verse in defense of intersessory prayers, I must read this in context. Valid post as usual Mike.
 
NotWorthy said:
No, if that’s the case, then the fault is mine.

As I mentioned earlier, with all the insults and accusations flying around (and I apologize for those with a less than Christian attitude…) it’s hard to keep up with this thread.

I’m sorry about that.
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No need to apologize. This thread has gotten heated. I have contributed greatly to spiraling off in all different directions so I take responsibility for at least 75% of the confusion. 🙂

Peace,

Mel
 
Melchior said:
So if I disagree with you my mind is closed? I am half Jewish I am pretty certain my reasons for studying this very issue for years is alot more personal and has been alot more painful for me than you can imagine. You are simply wrong and I have shown you how. Whether I am Catholic or not has not bearing since what you are espousing is not Catholic teaching. I never said I know everything but I do no about this issue since it menas something to me personally, as a Hebrew Christian. Remember there is no Jew or Greek in Christ. That’s also scriptural.

We are going to have to agree to disagree, but please don’t call me close minded because I disagree with you. I have been a Christian (Catholic even!) and a Jew my whole life. I don’t need to be educated on the relationship between my peoples.
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I suggested you read a book, you bashed the book and the author without even opening a page of it…that is closed minded in my opinion (and the book is filled with Scriptural references). Whether or not you are a Catholics means a lot, because the Church teaches, using Scripture btw, that the Jews remain the chosen people of God and that they too can be saved. So, if you are a Catholic, you are not following, eithe way you are just flat wrong about the Jews. You are also flatly ignoring entire portions of the NT, including Romans, in which it is made clear where the Jews still stand.

Now, this is not the thread to discuss this topic, so please open another thread and we go there to discuss, I am sure many people would join us. 🙂
 
water said:
Of course, it was our Virgin Mary.

In Catholic, we don’t just based on one simple sentence to jump to conclusion that was Virgin Mary. We based on other miracles, facts, witnesses of many people and other promises…

Now, if you think it is Satan, ask yourself if God would allow Satan to fool millions of people by allowing Satan to control the Sun and to destroy Russia, and other things so that many would fall for the trap of Satan? I don’t think so.

I hope non-Catholics can see this someday and have a great relationship with the Mother of God!

fatima.org/whyfatima.htm
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Satan has fooled millions of people before hasn’t he? Don’t we believe that muslims, jews, protestants(?), other religions, and atheists have all been fooled by satan? There has got to be millions of them.
 
But of course i don’t think the subject in question is the work of satan.
 
Tom317 said:
The point is the Jews had a valid devotion ot the ark, just as Catholics have a valid devotion to Mary as the New Ark.
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A valid devotion to the Ark or a valid veneration for the Ark? The ark itself is sacred, but inanimate. The Blessed Virgin Mary, the new ark, is a living being.

God Bless,
michael
 
😉
Tom317 said:
I suggested you read a book, you bashed the book and the author without even opening a page of it…that is closed minded in my opinion (and the book is filled with Scriptural references). Whether or not you are a Catholics means a lot, because the Church teaches, using Scripture btw, that the Jews remain the chosen people of God and that they too can be saved. So, if you are a Catholic, you are not following, eithe way you are just flat wrong about the Jews. You are also flatly ignoring entire portions of the NT, including Romans, in which it is made clear where the Jews still stand.

Now, this is not the thread to discuss this topic, so please open another thread and we go there to discuss, I am sure many people would join us. 🙂
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You start the thread and I will respond. I am am about 9 hours overdue for a shower and I don’t you guys at CA to start smelling me. Plus I think my wife would appreciate it too.

Just real quick though, I am very familiar with the arguments of the book as I have read reviews and critiques.
 
water said:
I hope I am not going off the topic, but my question for myfavoritmartin and others are about Guatalope, Do you think that is a work of God?

Thanks!
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Which one? The one from Spain or the later one from Mexico? 🙂
 
Tom317 said:
You seem to miss the most important part of that message:

"…God wants…"

It does not say “…Mary wants…”

God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his only son, it was not what Abraham had in mind. Mary had no thought of bearing Christ in her womb until God called her…it is what God wants, that is the key behind all of this.
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It was a response to this…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
“God wishes you to remain in the world for some time because He wants you to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart for the Heart of Jesus wants my Immaculate Heart to be venerated by His side.
I promise salvation to those who embrace it and their souls would be loved by God as the flowers placed by myself adorning His throne.”

When I read this type of stuff** I can’t help but wonder how many of you think its Mary and how many the work of satan?**

2nd corinthians talks of satan disguised as a beautiful angel.
Just curious…
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Sorry to chime in so late.
First things first: I think this is a legitimate topic for discussion and no one should have condemned you for asking.
I also, however, think that your choice of words (ie, work of satan) provoked some emotional reactions. It would have been more diplomatic to point out that you have some reservations with the type of language used in the quote from Fatima and that you can even imagine that some would view it as potentially satanic. That’s no biggie, really.
Now, one thing I never did see from all the postings I read was specifically why you felt it was potentially Satanic. I know you felt that it had the potential to be in conflict with the various soteriologic doctrine, but that alone does not usually lead one to describe something as Satanic. For example, Catholics do not typically describe Protestant theological differences as Satanic. Yet you seem to have applied such a standard here.
One very simply test that I think we can both look at to determine the origin of the Fatima apparitions is the fruit that it brings forth. Do you have any opinion or reason to believe that Fatima has actually (ie, in act) brought about bad fruit? For example, you mentioned Jim Jones in an analogous fashion to make a point. But all of us can look at the Jonestown event and see the bad fruit that came forth and the absence of goodness. I havent heard of any bad fruit from Fatima. I have heard of much good fruit - people who have become more prayerful, Christ - centered, etc. How about you - what have you heard Simon?
 
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