Fatima, the work of satan?

[amoxoxoma]

The most levelheaded (no offense to the others) catholic post so far on this thread, all should keep this in mind.
Peace
Simon

No Catholic is, or has ever been, required to believe in any special revelation or visitation. I for one, avoid it, much to mother’s consternation. There is much superstition in this kind of medieval spirituality that can lead one astray.

 

[Eireann]

There is not a 100% correct human denomination. There is a church that Christ promises. It is not a human organization led by a Pope, or group of Bishops, or elders. It is the church promised in the Holy Scriptures.
The number of organizations does not invalidate protestant OR the Catholic church view. They exist. You have many groups as well that adhere to Scripture and Tradition and do not agree. Now, some might say there are only a few. How many do you have to have before that proves my point. Would 10 Protestant denominations be ok? No, just one is not ok people would say. Well, there are more than one churches that split when supposedly led by an infallible Church. Is this a numbers game?
I think not.

The Catholic Churches power is in the Keys, there is only one key-holder.

 

[Flying_Bison]

I have the compete English translation from EWTN. Nowhere can I find the quotes that this argument is based on so it is silly. I believe that those supposed quotes must have come from the 2nd secret because the other secret have nothing to do with this quote and in trying to save reading time I will just paste the true words written by the child Lucia from fatima.

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.
**
Nowhere in this is there a promise of salvation or is Mary saying that we should worship her like God.**

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You are wrong. There are plenty of history documents to prove the CC is the historical Christian Church.

You are the one Protestant; whom I view as the stereotypical of Protestants (Anti-Catholic) and just as worst as Jack Chick.

You want proof here it is:

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“…folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid…” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“…Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“…the chief of the disciples…the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“**lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).**

Manny,
Your just the kind to sidetrack a good thread of discussion with personal attacks and quotes out of context. I’ll deal with all these quotes another day it is a promise, but i wish to stay on topic.
Peace

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I have the compete English translation from EWTN. Nowhere can I find the quotes that this argument is based on so it is silly. I believe that those supposed quotes must have come from the 2nd secret because the other secret have nothing to do with this quote and in trying to save reading time I will just paste the true words written by the child Lucia from fatima.

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.
**
Nowhere in this is there a promise of salvation or is Mary saying that we should worship her like God.**

Link?

 

[Flying_Bison]

I wish to see the source because I can’t find these words. I could be wrong but I have seen things misquoted more than a few times.

I have read the visions 3 times and cannot find these quotes

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I wish to see the source because I can’t find these words. I could be wrong but I have seen things misquoted more than a few times.

I have read the visions 3 times and cannot find these quotes

went to vatican and I apologize here it is…
To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, **many souls will be saved **and there will be peace

Same thing different words, sorry I usually double check these things. It coould be a translation discrepency.
link
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

But how does that promise jive when considering faith plus works? She is** promising **salvation.

Sorry, the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in faith plus works. We believe in faith and works.

As a Catholic, you can accept the apparition at Fatima or you can deny it. It’s not an article of faith. Mary can promise salvation because her Son is Salvation. Mary is pointing to her Son, not herself. Her heart is to be alongside that of Jesus’. Therefore, she wants what Jesus wants… salvation for all of mankind. What’s wrong with a mother wanting what her Son wants?

The Catechism on Salvation:

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

For more on Faith & Salvation in the Catholic Church:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a2.htm#169

 

[valient_Lucy]

Thanks Lily, resort to personal judgements…

Have you ever felt Jesus kick and move in your uterus? Have you ever held Him on your lap or let Him sleep on your shoulder?

 

[Georgess]

’ Love your God, ( our Lord ) , with all your heart, all your might , all your strength ’ …( as the one perfect creature did …)

for a world that had grown tired - to listen to that message … and yet needed it desperately…

Our Mother … who loves every one of her children …probably knew , that those words ’ triumph of Immaculate Heart ’ will get the attention …and for many , will be like that grain of sand … to grow the pearl - of perfect love , trust and holiness … to be the child of The Mother …and thus of The Father …

 

[valient_Lucy]

In comparison the more I love my wifes mother the more I love my wife…head scratcher!!!

Have you tried it? Your mother-in-law has known your wife longer than anyone else. She could have a definate insight into your wife that you’d be foolish to ignore.
Besdies, doesn’t your wife want you to treat your mother-in-law with respect? Does she appreciate it if you fight with her or treat her badly?

 

[6glargento]

NO worries regarding this verse?
2 cor 11:14
And it is no wonder; for even Satan himself is able to take the form of an angel of light

mary isn’t an angel

 

[myfavoritmartin]

mary isn’t an angel

Are you saying she appeared as an actual person and not a vision at fatima?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

**
Since II Cor 11th Chapter has been cited within the thread, I thought I’d include my archival notes on it:

II Cor 11:3,4,13-15 But I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled (exapatao - seduce wholly) Eve through his subtility (panourgia - shrewd, clever, cunning), so your minds should be corrupted (phtheiro - deprave, ruin, defile) from the simplicity (haplos-singleness, implies pure or holy) that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth “another Jesus”-- (this is not the Jesus of the Bible that says we must take up our cross daily, deny (aparneomai - utterly contradict) ourselves, forsake all that we have or we cannot be his disciple - Luke 9:23;14:27,33) --whom we have not preached, or if ye receive “another spirit”, (small s–the Holy Spirit is Truth - John 14:17, 15:26, & 16:13, 1 John 5:6-- They will preach another truth, which is not the truth at all, but a lie disguised as the truth) – which ye have not received, or “another gospel”,–the true gospel is death to the flesh/self and the resurrection daily in our mortal bodies - 1 Cor 15:1-4, 2 Cor 4:10-12,16,17 - The “other Jesus” requires no death to self, no daily cross, no self denial, but rather, this Jesus does not resurrect in us daily – instead he says to us that we can “distribute fortunes” (daemon) to ourselves thus ruling our own flesh, setting our own rules and overthrowing (diabolos) the law of God in our lives – this gospel is no gospel, that fulfills the flesh.) It is the devil’s counterfeit gospel.-which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For such are false apostles deceitful (dolios- to live by trickery, decoy, guile) workers, transforming (metaschematizo - disguise or change) themselves into the apostles of Christ (It is the devil disguised as Jesus)–but it is another Jesus. And no marvel - for Satan himself is transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) into an angel of light… Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed (metaschematizo - disguised) as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works. (They will pass themselves off as truth-sayers when they are soothsayers.)**

A most excellent post, thank you tabcom!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

No Catholic is, or has ever been, required to believe in any special revelation or visitation. I for one, avoid it, much to mother’s consternation. There is much superstition in this kind of medieval spirituality that can lead one astray.

You too, have showed great discernment. May the Lord bless and keep you for your spiritual wisdom.
He is worthy to be sought!!!
Blessings,
Simon

 

[Tom317]

You too, have showed great discernment. May the Lord bless and keep you for your spiritual wisdom.
He is worthy to be sought!!!
Blessings,
Simon

Hmmm, believing that a “man” rose from the dead sure sounds like superstition of a kind of medieval (or perhaps even ancient) spirituality that can lead one astray.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

satanic prophecy does it come true ?

Antiochus iv in the 11th chapter of Daniel comes to mind…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hmmm, believing that a “man” rose from the dead sure sounds like superstition of a kind of medieval (or perhaps even ancient) spirituality that can lead one astray.

Think that if you wish, to me it sounds like a mighty slippery slope downward.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hmmm, believing that a “man” rose from the dead sure sounds like superstition of a kind of medieval (or perhaps even ancient) spirituality that can lead one astray.

This troubles me, your comparing the divinity of Christ with a vision of Mary!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Have you tried it? Your mother-in-law has known your wife longer than anyone else. She could have a definate insight into your wife that you’d be foolish to ignore.
Besdies, doesn’t your wife want you to treat your mother-in-law with respect? Does she appreciate it if you fight with her or treat her badly?

Actually my wife only wants help in getting her mother to be a believer and not a doubter.