Fatima, the work of satan?

[myfavoritmartin]

The question is not does devotion to the Immacualte Heart of Mary shows recognition of Chrict in the flesh-the Question does MARY recognize Christ in the Flesh. it is obvious she does so even using your novel interperation of a random scripture verse she could not be a satanic spirit.

not Mary, the vision at fatima…

 

[JaneFrances]

This is a fair statement, but as a poster pointed out earlier the bible tells us how to test spirits by their recognition of Christ in the flesh, now if you mean to say devotion to the immaculate heart of Mary is recognition of Christ in the flesh.
I understand, though I disagree.

Any TRUE devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is recognition of the Incarnation. We only honor the Blessed Mother because of her participation in the Word made flesh. Any devotion to the Blessed Mother apart from her relationship with her Son is vain. For Catholics, practicing a true devotion to the Immaculate Heart, the recognition of Christ is implicit.

You certainly, may disagree, but only out of ignorance as anyone who rightly understands devotion ot the Immaculate Heart can not help but know and see our Lord through the Blessed Mother’s magnification.

To be clear, Fatima and the Church’s approval of this appearance is a matter of private revelation. It is like someone assuring a child that, yes, this really is the voice of your mother.

 

[Melchior]

I am curious-does not the entire Protesatnt Doctrine of “Sola Sciptura” hinge on private revelation? That is that anyone can pick up Scripture and the Spirit will reveal to them the truths contained therin?

No. That would be Solo Scriptura. Sola Scriptura teaches all that is needed for faith and righteousness is revealed in the scriptures properly interpreted by the church using exegesis, context etc. The actual teaching is actually not that far off from the Prima Scriptura of the Catholic church. But the modern version of it would be completely foreign to the original reformers. Not saying I agree with them completely, but the actual idea is much misunderstood around these parts.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Any TRUE devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is recognition of the Incarnation. We only honor the Blessed Mother because of her participation in the Word made flesh. Any devotion to the Blessed Mother apart from her relationship with her Son is vain. For Catholics, practicing a true devotion to the Immaculate Heart, the recognition of Christ is implicit.

You certainly, may disagree, but only out of ignorance as anyone who rightly understands devotion ot the Immaculate Heart can not help but know and see our Lord through the Blessed Mother’s magnification.

To be clear, Fatima and the Church’s approval of this appearance is a matter of private revelation. It is like someone assuring a child that, yes, this really is the voice of your mother.

But is that your personal take/
Just curious.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Read the link to vatican’s summary of fatima, no where in this vision does Christ come up; not as our salvation, not for anything… In fact it only speaks of saving souls by devotion to Her (Mary’s) immaculate heart… That is why this verse is very pertinent.

THE link? You know, I went to the Vatican web site. There are many, many, many links to Fatima. . .the most recent dozen or more dealing with the ‘third secret’ which addresses only one part of the three ‘secret messages’ which were given. Not by any means the entire history of fatima, and it is certainly not a “vatican summary of fatima”. . .so you see, what you did was neglect to check your sources for completeness.

You jumped to the conclusion that because one (of very many) links did not meet your prearranged notions of referring to Christ, that the entire summary of Fatima according to the Vatican did not do so.

That was careless at best. A high school student attempting research on the topic would have done more than checking out one link.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Read the link to Vatican’s summary of fatima, no where in this vision does Christ come up; not as our salvation, not for anything… In fact it only speaks of saving souls by devotion to Her (Mary’s) immaculate heart… That is why this verse is very pertinent.

I think you may have missed my post in regards to your claim that Jesus is absence in the Fatima message. Perhaps, I may have to post the message again from the Fatima website.
from the Fatima website:

She said that if people did not stop offending God, He would punish the world severely by means of war, famine, persecution of the Church, and persecution of the Holy Father. To prevent these chastisements, Our Lady offered a remedy: She would return to ask for the Consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart and the Communion (Eucharist) of Reparation on the Five First Saturdays. If Her requests were heeded, there would be peace. If not, Russia’s errors would spread throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions against the Church, the Holy Father to suffer much, martyrdom of the good and the annihilation of various nations.

In Catholic Theology, the Eucharist IS JESUS CHRIST. It’s pretty clear to me that Jesus was not taken out. The Catholic Church also states in other documents that Mary is not equal to God’s saving grace. In the Apparition of Fatima, God send Mary as a messenger to the children for the repentence of sinners, and offer prayers and sacrifices to God.

The Fatima message did not say, Mary alone can save.

Correct if I’m wrong to make that general statement. I assumed you think the message that the Fatima message speaks that Mary is the savior, which it does not state.

 

[Tom317]

IN NO WAY SHAPE OR MEAN HAS THIS EVER BEEN IMPLIED. IF YOU CHOOSE TO PERSONALLY ATTACK ME FOR STATING THIS PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF.

Here are jut a handful of your comments with my response to each:

There is not a 100% correct human denomination.

 Catholics disagree and you know it. This is an attack on the Church.

There is a church that Christ promises. It is not a human organization led by a Pope, or group of Bishops, or elders. It is the church promised in the Holy Scriptures.

 Yes, the Catholic Church. This is an attack against the Church, the Pope and the Magisterium as a whole.

The number of organizations does not invalidate protestant OR the Catholic church view.

 Yes, it does because nearly all of those Protestant denoms hold differing views of Scripture and of truths of the faith, they cannot all be right.

I’ve read his Glories of Mary in its entirety…I found it very very troublesome, as should you.
 Typical, try to tell Catholics what they should do. That is an attack against Catholics, with an arrogance that you somehow know the faith better then Catholics.

*Scriptures says even men of Holy stature can be decieved. *
 Telling us Catholics we are being deceived, you are wrong. That is an attack against Catholics, with an arrogance that you somehow know the faith better then Catholics.

There are many more. Please put away your hatred for the Catholic faith/Church, it will not allow you to hear what we are saying. Allow your heart and mind to actually hear what people are saying. You have many times made statements that people are not giving direct opinions and that they are just following Church teachings, that is a direct insult because pretty much everyone here is trying to give you what you are asking for. If you refuse to hear or listen, then why are you here?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Here are jut a handful of your comments with my response to each:

There is not a 100% correct human denomination.

.

There is a church that Christ promises. It is not a human organization led by a Pope, or group of Bishops, or elders. It is the church promised in the Holy Scriptures.

The number of organizations does not invalidate protestant OR the Catholic church view.

I’ve read his Glories of Mary in its entirety…I found it very very troublesome, as should you.

*Scriptures says even men of Holy stature can be decieved. *

QUOTE]

Other than the underlined these are either facts or opinions and are stated as such, I apologize for the glories of Mary judgement.

 

[Eden]

If you refuse to hear or listen, then why are you here?

Months ago when myfavoritmartin began posting here, he stated that his son’s mother is Catholic and his son is being raised Catholic as well. So, he said he was here to find out what his boy is being taught. I’m assuming that is still the reason why he posts here. Am I correct, Simon?

 

[Tom317]

Tom317;1779502:

Here are jut a handful of your comments with my response to each:

There is not a 100% correct human denomination.

.

There is a church that Christ promises. It is not a human organization led by a Pope, or group of Bishops, or elders. It is the church promised in the Holy Scriptures.

The number of organizations does not invalidate protestant OR the Catholic church view.

I’ve read his Glories of Mary in its entirety…I found it very very troublesome, as should you.

*Scriptures says even men of Holy stature can be decieved. *

QUOTE]

Other than the underlined these are either facts or opinions and are stated as such, I apologize for the glories of Mary judgement.

The point I am trying to make is this: As far as I can tell, everyone here loves Jesus Christ, of that I have no doubt. You love Jesus Christ. No-one here worships anyone other then Christ, no-one here worships Mary, no-one here thinks Mary is equal to Christ, no-one here thinks salvation comes “from” Mary. People here have been trying to tell you that Mary is a type of advocate for those who go to her for prayers, and that she has been given certain gifts by Jesus Christ…and I have told you that Mary can only promise that which she has been given by Christ to promise. In other words, if Mary makes a promise, it is on behalf of Christ, not on her own behalf.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

THE link? You know, I went to the Vatican web site. There are many, many, many links to Fatima. . .the most recent dozen or more dealing with the ‘third secret’ which addresses only one part of the three ‘secret messages’ which were given. Not by any means the entire history of fatima, and it is certainly not a “vatican summary of fatima”. . .so you see, what you did was neglect to check your sources for completeness.

You jumped to the conclusion that because one (of very many) links did not meet your prearranged notions of referring to Christ, that the entire summary of Fatima according to the Vatican did not do so.

That was careless at best. A high school student attempting research on the topic would have done more than checking out one link.

The source link I posted was cardinal joseph ratzinger
and it covers all 3 secrets.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

myfavoritmartin;1779567:

The point I am trying to make is this: As far as I can tell, everyone here loves Jesus Christ, of that I have no doubt. You love Jesus Christ. No-one here worships anyone other then Christ, no-one here worships Mary, no-one here thinks Mary is equal to Christ, no-one here thinks salvation comes “from” Mary. People here have been trying to tell you that Mary is a type of advocate for those who go to her for prayers, and that she has been given certain gifts by Jesus Christ…and I have told you that Mary can only promise that which she has been given by Christ to promise. In other words, if Mary makes a promise, it is on behalf of Christ, not on her own behalf.

Tom you seem to be missing it, I am not questioning Mary or any of that stated above, I am questioning fatima.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Months ago when myfavoritmartin began posting here, he stated that his son’s mother is Catholic and his son is being raised Catholic as well. So, he said he was here to find out what his boy is being taught. I’m assuming that is still the reason why he posts here. Am I correct, Simon?

No, though you are correct on the past.

 

[Tom317]

Tom317;1779599:

Tom you seem to be missing it, I am not questioning Mary or any of that stated above, I am questioning fatima.

Yes, I understand. Yet you have received many answers, you just reject those answers. So, is there really anymore to be said?

 

[estesbob]

Did I say “faith alone”? I said Christ alone. Do you disagree?

Mel

Of course not-all salvation is through Christ. I suspect we differ, however, on what “through Christ” means.

 

[water]

myfavoritmartin;1779614:

Yes, I understand. Yet you have received many answers, you just reject those answers. So, is there really anymore to be said?

Tom is making some points that I had seen last night also, and I did say about it to MFM regarding “honest answer…and defending” - if a poster said the way MFM wanted to say, he said that person is honest; however, if a person was defending their believes, MFM thinks they are too defensive or attacking MFM.

I believe that MFM has been trying to tell what MFM believes is true. He had no intention of bashing Catholics, but trying to help us. I believe many of us do the same thing for MFM. However, sometime we are too focus in one area of our goal and forgot how to communicate to make others feel there is love between us all.

If we all just watch out how we say to others, we will avoid lots of misunderstandings.

If we discuss without love, Satan is the winner here - not you!

 

[Tom317]

Tom317;1779627:

Tom is making some points that I had seen last night also, and I did say about it to MFM regarding “honest answer…and defending” - if a poster said the way MFM wanted to say, he said that person is honest; however, if a person was defending their believes, MFM thinks they are too defensive or attacking MFM.

I believe that MFM has been trying to tell what MFM believes is true. He had no intention of bashing Catholics, but trying to help us. I believe many of us do the same thing for MFM. However, sometime we are too focus in one area of our goal and forgot how to communicate to make others feel there is love between us all.

If we all just watch out how we say to others, we will avoid lots of misunderstandings.

If we discuss without love, Satan is the winner here - not you!

It is not about winning, yet sometimes people do not want to hear or listen. There have been more then sufficient replies to MFM’s questions, yet those replies are basically rejected. No problme with that because everyone is entitled to accept or reject opinions here.

 

[water]

water;1779659:

It is not about winning, yet sometimes people do not want to hear or listen. There have been more then sufficient replies to MFM’s questions, yet those replies are basically rejected. No problme with that because everyone is entitled to accept or reject opinions here.

you are right, it is not about winning when comparing between one to the other. But it is about winning for Satan when we fail our love for each other.

PS: I am not trying to be on anyone’s side. It is hard to practice love, but I am trying to practice as often as I could.

 

[Melchior]

Of course not-all salvation is through Christ. I suspect we differ, however, on what “through Christ” means.

Why do you suspect that? If you think people can come while not believing in him then we do mean different things. However, I this is what I mean by saying all salvation is through Christ - or more specifically Christ Himself is Salvation: Being united with Christ in Baptism and of course believing in Christ (meaning striving to daily follow Him and obey him - not mere intellectual assent) and trusting in Him alone for salvation as primary. I believe that one is truly a Christian once baptized, but I also believe we all need to be genuinely converted to Christ by repenting of our sins and having a lively faith in Him. I think this is completely compatible with Catholicism. I believe we need the Eucharist and the Word of God and I am not at all adverse to all 7 Sacraments. I believe they are the means of grace that apply Christ’s merits to us for salvation. Of course all of them are useless if one does not believe. I do believe that anyone who rejects Christ can be saved because He said this himself.

I also do not believe that virtuous pagans are likely to be saved ordinarily, though I will leave them to God. Since all of our righteousness is as filthy rags to God outside of Christ one cannot be worshipping a false god and be in Christ at the same time. I believe is someone truly seeks God, it is God who prompts them to do so. If they do He will make sure the Gospel reaches them. But I digress I am just blabbing on and on now. :yawn:

 

[Tom317]

Tom317;1779680:

you are right, it is not about winning when comparing between one to the other. But it is about winning for Satan when we fail our love for each other.

PS: I am not trying to be on anyone’s side. It is hard to practice love, but I am trying to practice as often as I could.

I agree, the only one we should be siding with is Christ, and of when we support/love Mary we are siding with Christ.

Marian teachings and beliefs are very difficult for Protestants, they have years of counter-teaching that makes it a stumbling block for them, just as belief in the Real Presence is a stumbling bloack and so is the Crucified Christ.