Fatima, the work of satan?

[myfavoritmartin]

Do you think that He is right now in Heaven always with bruises, blood drippings, holes in His head, his hands, his feet at all time?

Yes it says so in revelation,
Revelation 5:6

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

myfavoritmartin,

Do you really believe Jesus would allow Satan to use his mother in order to trick us?

Perhaps a bit of common sense wouldn’t hurt.

Perhaps a little scriptural sense wouldn’t hurt.
Yes I do the scriptures tell us this also… I will find it again, even though I’ve posted it already.

 

[water]

Yes it says so in revelation,
Revelation 5:6

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.

You see, you answered for yourself. He’s a Lamb! Why wasn’t He a Human Being as you said "

On resurrection day Christ was a full grown adult, approx. 33 years old! RIGHT?

The more you try to prove Fatima is the work of Satan, the more you are into his trap! you’ve been contradicting yourself too much. I have to say, you should need spend another few years learning how the Church accepting this event as one from God. I don’t think you have spent enough time yet.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

myfavoritmartin,

Do you really believe Jesus would allow Satan to use his mother in order to trick us?

Perhaps a bit of common sense wouldn’t hurt.

2 Corinthians 11:14
: No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds
of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You see, you answered for yourself. He’s a Lamb! Why wasn’t He a Human Being as you said "

Revelation was a symbolic and if you believe some around here symbolic and literal, If John had a vision and Christ in the form of a Lamb was still bloody what does this say? You guys say the vision is really Mary but symbolic Jesus? OUR SAVIOUR?
This seems to be a reaccuring theme in Catholocism…
see Rev 12 thread…

The more you try to prove Fatima is the work of Satan, the more you are into his trap! you’ve been contradicting yourself too much. I have to say, you should need spend another few years learning how the Church accepting this event as one from God. I don’t think you have spent enough time yet.

(Edited by Moderator)

 

[water]

Revelation was a symbolic and if you believe some around here symbolic and literal, If John had a vision and Christ in the form of a Lamb was still bloody what does this say? You guys say the vision is really Mary but symbolic Jesus? OUR SAVIOUR?
This seems to be a reaccuring theme in Catholocism…
see Rev 12 thread…

It is better for you to read the message and learn well before debating. Because the more you debate, and when you run out of words, you try to put your words in our mouth or even ask silly questions.

Didn’t you try to convince us that Jesus was 33 and that there was no way He appears as an Infant? and on the same reply, you post as a Lamb?

(Edited by Moderator)

 

[JaneFrances]

Yes it says so in revelation,
Revelation 5:6

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.

OR. . .is He “the One” who “sat. . .like a Son of Man wearing a gold crown on his head and holding a sharp sickle in his hand.” Revelation 14:14???

OR. . .perhaps Jesus reveals himself to us in different ways that we may know Him better.

And, while we’re on the subject of Revelation, one particular passage sticks out as it pertains to this discussion:

The prophetic spirit proves itself by witnessing to Jesus. Revelation 19:10

And so does Blessed Mother witness to the saving power of her Son, Jesus Christ, in the prayer she gives to the children at Fatima:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.

Simon, I know somewhere you asked me to cite the exact posts which proved something to you. Truly, I have no idea what would prove anything to you at this point.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

OR. . .is He “the One” who “sat. . .like a Son of Man wearing a gold crown on his head and holding a sharp sickle in his hand.” Revelation 14:14???

OR. . .perhaps Jesus reveals himself to us in different ways that we may know Him better.
And, while we’re on the subject of Revelation, one particular passage sticks out as it pertains to this discussion:
And so does Blessed Mother witness to the saving power of her Son, Jesus Christ, in the prayer she gives to the children at Fatima:
Simon, I know somewhere you asked me to cite the exact posts which proved something to you. Truly, I have no idea what would prove anything to you at this point.

Jane,
you avoided this, it really was Mary but our Lord decided to show himself as a babe…Jane, really your an intelligent person… Give me your best as to why Mary would be Mary, but Jesus would be a helpless babe…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Jane,
…Jane,
really your an intelligent person…

Wanted to point this out, I compliment you guys!

 

[NotWorthy]

Jane,
you avoided this, it really was Mary but our Lord decided to show himself as a babe…Jane, really your an intelligent person… Give me your best as to why Mary would be Mary, but Jesus would be a helpless babe…

Revelation chapter 12, perhaps?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Revelation chapter 12, perhaps?

Yes John this vision or interpretaion is much like your view of Rev 12… No offense my friend but it is built on speculation and half truths. Once again the real Mary appears and Christ is with her but why in the form of a babe… Seriously why?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Yes John this vision or interpretaion is much like your view of Rev 12… No offense my friend but it is built on speculation and half truths. Once again the real Mary appears and Christ is with her but why in the form of a babe… Seriously why?

Bumped to Jane and Notworthy for tuesday!

 

[Eden]

Hi Eden, on the other hand if our teachings are the ones following the instructions recorded by the apostles, and kept up by the early church, and not ones that have developed over time by human traditions then it seems to me that the church whom followed human tradition would be the easier target to decieve and deception is the biggest weapon the devil has in his arsenal.

Why would satan waste his time with the already-deceived? That makes no sense. If Catholics are already on their way to a certain doom because we follow man-made traditions, what more damage is to be done? Wouldn’t satan concentrate on causing the followers of the true Protestant religions to stumble? The fact is, no one in the spiritual realm seems to be appearing in visions to anyone in the Protestant world (not to mention the Muslim world or the Jewish world). It seems these apparitions are a unique experiences of the churches with valid Apostolic Succession. To paraphrase an apologist on Catholic Answers Live a few weeks back - if you’ve never had an experience of satan attacking you, then you should be worried. Is it a good thing not to be threatening enough to attract his attention?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why would satan waste his time with the already-deceived? That makes no sense. If Catholics are already on their way to a certain doom because we follow man-made traditions, what more damage is to be done? Wouldn’t satan concentrate on causing the followers of the true Protestant religions to stumble? The fact is, no one in the spiritual realm seems to be appearing in visions to anyone in the Protestant world (not to mention the Muslim world or the Jewish world). It seems these apparitions are a unique experiences of the churches with valid Apostolic Succession. To paraphrase an apologist on Catholic Answers Live a few weeks back - if you’ve never had an experience of satan attacking you, then you should be worried. Is it a good thing not to be threatening enough to attract his attention?

I wouldn’t call catholics already decieved, rather similar to thyatira in the book of revelation as i’ve mentioned…(my opinion)
regardless, to your comments.
1st I’ve felt satans attacks
2nd i’ve seen many protestant churches on the grow and under attack, Ted haggard comes to mind. Ted had a week spot satan attacked.
Priest celibacy is a human weak spot satan attacks! C’mon Eden do I really need to draw this out for you?

 

[LilyM]

Jane,
you avoided this, it really was Mary but our Lord decided to show himself as a babe…Jane, really your an intelligent person… Give me your best as to why Mary would be Mary, but Jesus would be a helpless babe…

Why not? He WAS a helpless babe in Bethlehem, Egypt and Nazareth, ***totally ***dependent on Mary … perhaps he wanted to remind some of us to trust her, just as he did as a child.

He who has ears let him hear, Simon.

Why should it be that Our Lord and Saviour was happy to be utterly dependent on Mary for years, physically and in every way, and yet you won’t even trust her not to give us Satanic messages! You’ll have a lot of 'splainin to do if you ever meet him and her.

 

[Eden]

I wouldn’t call catholics already decieved, rather similar to thyatira in the book of revelation as i’ve mentioned…(my opinion)
regardless, to your comments.
1st I’ve felt satans attacks
2nd i’ve seen many protestant churches on the grow and under attack, Ted haggard comes to mind. Ted had a week spot satan attacked.
Priest celibacy is a human weak spot satan attacks! C’mon Eden do I really need to draw this out for you?

If you can give me some powerful examples of millions of Protestants being “deceived” by a vision, then I will be impressed by your assertion that satan works just as hard to deceive Protestants. In the meantime, either the Blessed Virgin appeared to these Catholic children, thus affirming the Truth of the Catholic Church. Or, satan appeared to these Catholic children and because the Church is true, he needs to go to elaborate lengths to deceive Catholics, lengths which he has not been willing to go to to deceive Protestants.
Either way, the silence in the Protestant world as far as apparitions go is striking.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes John this vision or interpretaion is much like your view of Rev 12… No offense my friend but it is built on speculation and half truths. Once again the real Mary appears and Christ is with her but why in the form of a babe… Seriously why?

But you see, you haven’t convinced me that the baby is not Jesus, nor that the woman is not Mary.

You see John alluding to Mary in his Gospel as “woman” many, many times. Don’t you see the link between that woman and this “woman”.

Is it coincidence that they are referred to as woman?
Is it coincidence that this woman gives birth to the baby Jesus?
Is it coincidence that woman becomes the mother to all Christians that follow God’s word, just as Mary becomes the mother to John, the most loved disciple.
Is it coincidence that the Ark of the Covenant is replaced by Mary, just as early Catholics taught that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant (from the documents I sent you)?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Priestly celibacy is not a ‘weak spot.’ Those who prey on children do not do so because “they can’t get a woman”, or why would the majority of pedophiles/ephibophiles be married men?

That being said, it is a discipline, and can change. Like Paul, I would say that “those who are married must care for their families, but those who are unmarried may focus on God”. And no one ‘forces’ celibacy. The priesthood isn’t a career choice, it’s a vocation, a freely entered into vocation. Certainly those who enter and cannot keep their vows can be (and have been) released.

If eating a healthy diet is good, we don’t ‘change the rules’ and stop advocating it just because so many don’t eat healthfully, do we? The healthy diet remains the ideal of what we should do, doesn’t it?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

God is also ‘out of time’. He can ‘appear’ as He wishes. That ability isn’t somehow ‘taken away’ from Jesus so that He can “only” appear as an adult male, is it? If so, isn’t that a limitation put on Jesus?

Why, in fact, did Jesus “come to us” as an infant? Why not just have Him spring forth, without being “born of woman”, as an adult male, if His ‘purpose’ was to be a 33 year old man who died and rose for us?

You see, you appear to have the idea that Jesus is as limited physically as any human now living is–we, of course, cannot ‘go back’ in our physical bodies to a more ‘youthful’ or a more ‘elderly’ stage at a given point.

But why can’t Jesus? And why shouldn’t Jesus? His ways are above our ways, and His thoughts above our thoughts.

Personally, I think that any concept or religion that thinks that it can ‘understand’ and interpret everything about God --including going so far as to state that He can or will ONLY do this, or that, is setting itself up for a fall. God can be known, but He can never (on this earth before the Judgment) be known fully. (we see in a dark glass).

The minute you try to box God into what ‘you’ think He should be, that minute you’ve lost Him and made, instead, an idol (YOUR interpretation of God )into what you think is his image.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane,
you avoided this, …

Simon, I have avoided nothing. I have been an active participant in this thread. I apologize if I have not answered your posts in the way you want me to.

I will try to respond. . .

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin

Originally Posted by JaneFrances
Your question was “Fatima, the work of satan?”

What are your specific concerns that it may be the work of satan?

1.We have already dealt with the language of “devotion to the Immaculate Heart.”

2.We have already dealt with the importance of testing spirits.

3.What part of the message of the Blessed Mother at Fatima isn’t “holding fast to that which is good?”

It’s just that simple.

I don’t think any have been clearly answered in one post take these points you mention and post the post number you think answers it. I’ll answer what you ask me…
1.
2.
3. No claim that Christ is God in flesh, per the scripture i quoted about testing spirits

1 and 2 are for you.

First, I never said that each issue (“devotion to the Immaculate Heart” and spirit testing) has been or even will be “clearly answered in one post,” as you assert here.

Instead, I said these issues have been dealt with. And they have been. I can cite examples of posts which I believe did a good job, but whether they are sufficient for you is not within my realm of knowing. So, rather than spending time to sift through the 12 pages of posts for good, clear explanations which have thus far proved unconvincing for you, I’ll offer you this:

1. In post #283, you seem to concede that the idea of “devotion to the Immaculate Heart” was clearly explained to you.
2. 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (1 John 4)

As we have explained in NUMEROUS posts, the Catholic Church did not come to accept the message of Fatima without extensive consideration and, yes, TESTING. You may not accept the Church’s position, but you can not deny that they went to great measures to examine this spirit and the message it delivered to the children at Fatima.

1. We have clearly shown throughout this thread that the Blessed Mother acknowledges Jesus Christ as God. She instructs the children to sacrifice and to pray each time they do: “O Jesus, it is for love of You. . .” Sacrifice **to the LORD **is the only acceptable form of sacrifice for Christians.

In addition, she gives them this prayer: “'O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy” In doing so, the Blessed Mother acknowledges the saving power and Divine Mercy of her Son, who came IN THE FLESH, flesh of her flesh, to forgive sins. A little reasonable deduction is all that is necessary to figure this out, for as we know, Christ came in the flesh PRECISELY to forgive the sins of men. How could she not acknowledge Jesus is God in the flesh, if she acknowledges his power to forgive?

If I say to my children, “Please pick up your room,” I implicitly acknowledging that they have the power to do this. Same with the Blessed Mother’s message. She teaches the children to sacrifice to God and pray to Him to forgive sinners, whereby implicitly acknowledging Jesus is God and he came in the flesh, died in the flesh, and thus has the power to forgive.

I don’t understand your hang up here, Simon. Really. I realize the script didn’t go according to your specificiations, but there is nothing lacking in content here.

Jane, really your an intelligent person

I’m not sure an intelligent person would keep hitting her head against a brick wall. . .

it really was Mary but our Lord decided to show himself as a babe… Give me your best as to why Mary would be Mary, but Jesus would be a helpless babe.

To emphasize the that Christ came in the flesh, as a baby from a mother? The image of the Madonna and Child is a constant reminder in iconology that our Lord came into this world, in the flesh, as a child from a mother. For our Lord to appear as a child to children could be a particularly familiar and comforting gesture to set the children at ease. OR, perhaps this is your smoking gun. Perhaps, our Lord appeared as a Child with His Blessed Motehr to remind us all that the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us, even as a babe in his mother’s arms.

I don’t know, really. It seems like you keep grasping for SOMETHING, ANYTHING. You still haven’t given any real proof of “bad fruit.” We have provided several good fruits that have come from the message at Fatima, but all I can discern is that the fruits aren’t the kind you prefer.