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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Yes, I am aware. Though in all honesty my opposition is most likely for different reasons than yours. But I digress lest we sway to far off topic.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
CM,
Clearly I do understand scripture, what I am asking is for someone to show me in the fatima message, these things.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
see post 604
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JonathanKinsman
Guest
SIMON: I’m sorry to say this but I know of no other way: you’re missing the point.
1. Jesus already came in the flesh (the Incarnation). That misquote from DB in 2 John refers to prophets of false gods (early Christianity was fighting in the marketplace against many goofy, pantheistic and pagan religions). We are not discussing those days, we are discussing your allegations that Mary is an antichrist or deciever in her appearance at Fatima, Portugal.
2. **“Miracles don’t make it of God.” **Well, here you go again, making assertions that sound like they come from the Bible (your measure of authenticity) yet are without merit. What miracles has the Great Deceiver done? Parting the Red Sea? Multiplication of the Loaves and Fishes? What miracles are you referring to here?
**3. The Vatican Link. **That’s not the issue. The issue was your assertion that then-Cardinal Ratzinger translated the Fatima visions and that is what YOU were quoting. YOU said so YOURSELF. Go to the link (remember, I did?) and you will see what he actually wrote: “Theological commentary on the visions of Fatima,” which if you had read you probably would have said to all of us on this thread (in the immortal words of Rosanne Rosanadana) “Oh, never mind.”
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Church_Militant
Guest
I have a real problem with this because even n-C preachers do not support everything they say with scripture and in other cases they offer teachings that are twists on various passages of the Word of God. Let me see if I can help you see what I mean as I answer the rest of this, okay?
Even sinless people can be decievedas I pointed out before…In obedience to Our Lord’s instructions look at the fruit. Is there evidence to have an issue? No, there is not.
said this…
**2John verse 7
“For many deceivers have gone into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as comming in the flesh.
This is a Deceiver and an Antichrist.”**This is ignorant bunkum though. He has no knowledge of the apparitions and the message and yet offers a negative opinion. Sum up the message. “Repent, turn to Christ and obey Him.” Where is that wrong? Where does that show any sign of satanic deception or of Antichrist? The messages are in line with Biblical teaching and the fruit is deeper commitment to Jesus Christ.
Driving Bear is way out in left field Biblically and rhetorically here. He hasn’t made a post on here yet that I can’t refute into nothingness. I keep waiting for him to try…I even told him so in a post and in a PM and he said he’d undertake my challenge. He hasn’t so far.
t, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.Two big problems here.
- His knowledge of this and other church approved Marian apparitions is virtually non-existent, and
- a message does not have to specifically say that Christ is come in the flesh in order to be from God, so since this and other Marian messages call for greater faith and committment to Christ, which is at least as scriptural and correct as any message I have ever heard from any n-C preacher. The message is certainly of God.
’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Miracles don’t make it of GodTrue, but the test for it is the one that I have shown from the Word of God and since it plainly complies, it is not Catholics who are in danger of judgement concerning this but those who, through ignorance or some kind of agenda attempt to ascribe it to satanic origins.
That would be Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and perhaps he should have read this:
LINK
Pax tecum,
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
after reading through this it would be nice if opposers took parts of the specific fatima message to dispel parts from scripture, if its not possible just say "Sacred Tradition"
This is what I asked in post 604 is this not possible? Just say so.
This is what I asked in post 604 is this not possible? Just say so.
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ricko
Guest
If you consider Fatima to be the work of Satan then what do you consider of the 90 foot tall image of Jesus that appeared to Oral Roberts in the desert?
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Church_Militant
Guest
This is what I asked in post 604 is this not possible? Just say so. Show me examples of anything in the messages that contradict scripture Simon. I’m not don’ your homework for you. It would rob you of the opportunity to learn.
“to dispel parts from scripture”
Catholics have no idea what you mean by that phrase. No one “dispels scripture”. What are you talking about?
Pax tecum,
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Church_Militant
Guest
Peyote buttons???
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Hardly know of Oral, never heard of the image.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
I’ve given you verses, example the Christ in flesh one… show in the message of the vision where the vision is qualified according to the verse that tells you how to test spirits.
This would be an example…
“And Mary said to Jucinta sure as our saviour walked this earth…” or “I Mary the mother of our Saviour…”
The bible tells us how to test spirits! What is so hard about reading this verse and matching it to the message?
Something anything in the message that does anything even remotely close…
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
1 john 4:2-3
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: **Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come
in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. **
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: **Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come
in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. **
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
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NotWorthy
Guest
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LilyM
Guest
I think that’s our main point Simon - even the devil himself would acknowlege that Christ is the Son of God. There has to be more to testing the Spirits.
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wcknight
Guest
The thing is non of the Marian messages will ever contradict sacred scriptures. The Church would never approve or condone any such mesage as being authentic.
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wcknight
Guest
Isn’t this the same Oal Roberts who claimed that God told him to raise 5 million $ or he would be called “home” …
The last I heard he got a time extension…
Never heard of his 90 foot Jesus image… I’d call it another delusion from another egomaniac…
The last I heard he got a time extension…
Never heard of his 90 foot Jesus image… I’d call it another delusion from another egomaniac…
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Eden
Guest
Let’s look at the very beginning of the events at Fatima - the apparitions of the Angel of Portugal in 1916. The children were visited three times by the angel before the Blessed Mother appeared to them the following year.
From the first apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
Do not be afraid. I am the angel of peace. Pray with me.
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love You. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love You.
Pray in this way. The hearts of Jesus and Mary are ready to listen to you.
Second apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
What are you doing? You must pray! Pray! The hearts of Jesus and Mary have merciful designs for you. You must offer your prayers and sacrifices to God, the Most High.
“But how are we to sacrifice?” I asked.
In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you.
Third apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. And by the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
After that he rose, took again in his hand the chalice and the host. The host he gave to me and the contents of the chalice he gave to Jacinta and Francisco, saying at the same time,
Eat and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ terribly outraged by the ingratitude of men. Offer reparation for their sakes and console God.
ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/angel3.htm
I don’t know how anyone can believe this was a message from satan.
From the first apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
Do not be afraid. I am the angel of peace. Pray with me.
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love You. I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, and do not love You.
Pray in this way. The hearts of Jesus and Mary are ready to listen to you.
Second apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
What are you doing? You must pray! Pray! The hearts of Jesus and Mary have merciful designs for you. You must offer your prayers and sacrifices to God, the Most High.
“But how are we to sacrifice?” I asked.
In every way you can offer sacrifice to God in reparation for the sins by which He is offended, and in supplication for sinners. In this way you will bring peace to our country, for I am its guardian angel, the Angel of Portugal. Above all, bear and accept with patience the sufferings God will send you.
Third apparition of the Angel of Portugal:
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. And by the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
After that he rose, took again in his hand the chalice and the host. The host he gave to me and the contents of the chalice he gave to Jacinta and Francisco, saying at the same time,
Eat and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ terribly outraged by the ingratitude of men. Offer reparation for their sakes and console God.
ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/angel3.htm
I don’t know how anyone can believe this was a message from satan.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
So scripture is pretty clear on this, and you guys are rejecting it?
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Fine and dandy there Eden,
Lets take a look at the Mary vision;
as translated by the Vatican.
THE “SECRET” OF FATIMA
FIRST AND SECOND PART OF THE “SECRET”
ACCORDING TO THE VERSION PRESENTED BY SISTER LUCIA
IN THE “THIRD MEMOIR” OF 31 AUGUST 1941 FOR THE BISHOP OF LEIRIA-FATIMA
… This will entail my speaking about the secret, and thus answering the first question.
What is the secret? It seems to me that I can reveal it, since I already have permission from Heaven to do so. God’s representatives on earth have authorized me to do this several times and in various letters, one of which, I believe, is in your keeping. This letter is from Father José Bernardo Gonçalves, and in it he advises me to write to the Holy Father, suggesting, among other things, that I should reveal the secret. I did say something about it. But in order not to make my letter too long, since I was told to keep it short, I confined myself to the essentials, leaving it to God to provide another more favourable opportunity.
In my second account I have already described in detail the doubt which tormented me from 13 June until 13 July, and how it disappeared completely during the Apparition on that day.
Well, the secret is made up of three distinct parts, two of which I am now going to reveal.
The first part is the vision of hell.
Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.
We then looked up at Our Lady, who said to us so kindly and so sadly:
“
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