Fatima, the work of satan?

[myfavoritmartin]

I think there is more to this than you are aware of Simon.

In a talk given on this subject, Tim Gray claims that these demons are actually trying to possess and control Jesus. Stating someone’s real name is the first step in possessing them (according to exorcists). That’s why Jesus immediately demands that they shut up. Secondly, the terms that Jesus uses to shut them up are also ritualistic terms used in exorcisms, such as “I adjure thee”

The speaker notes that what Christians have taken for granted as demons cow-towing to Jesus (when they read the Gospels), was actually spiritual warfare of the most deadly kind.

I’m not so sure what your saying here, but I can tell you I have felt and seen spiritual warfare, even within my home, actually all believers do… Its whether we choose to recognize. Or have the spiritual awareness to realize.

Maybe we should just let this whole thread die, I don’t seem to be able to get my point through to many.
And start a non-competitive thread on spiritual warfare. Where we all can learn and share… What do you think John?

PS I refuse to be the one to post #6_6 on this post…

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’m not so sure what your saying here, but I can tell you I have felt and seen spiritual warfare, even within my home, actually all believers do… Its whether we choose to recognize. Or have the spiritual awareness to realize.

Maybe we should just let this whole thread die, I don’t seem to be able to get my point through to many.
And start a non-competitive thread on spiritual warfare. Where we all can learn and share… What do you think John?

PS I refuse to be the one to post #6_6 on this post…/QUOTE]

Why? Are you superstitious? 666 are just numbers

newadvent.org/cathen/11151a.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
<<2. Numbers: Seven is the symbol of completeness or fullness six, of imperfection (7-1) twelve, of Israel, old and new four, of the created world (the four elements: air, earth, fire, water; the four parts: sky, earth, sea, abyss; the four points of the compass) one thousand, a figure used to represent a long period or something vast >>

Jennifer

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I don’t understand why God would have Mary appear in a vision to people. Hebrews teaches that in times past God has spoken to us by the Prophets but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son. We have God’s Word, the Bible, in which to hear from God from. Until we read, understand, and heed this, why would God send a “vision” that causes so much “division”?

People mention fruit. Well, this has caused division. Not too many Protestants agree on it, and Catholics are told they don’t have to believe it but are left with the subtle impression that they should. Since some Catholics believe it and others don’t, then Catholics are divided as well. If it is nothing but “private” revelation then why does anyone believe it at all? I’m not going to come right out and say it was the devil but I don’t believe it was Mary or a message from God. It could have been their own imaginations. Then again, it could have been Mary…but then, why doesn’t Scripture tell us to listen to visions of Mary anywhere in it?

 

[water]

I’m not so sure what your saying here, but I can tell you I have felt and seen spiritual warfare, even within my home, actually all believers do… Its whether we choose to recognize. Or have the spiritual awareness to realize.

Maybe we should just let this whole thread die, I don’t seem to be able to get my point through to many.
And start a non-competitive thread on spiritual warfare. Where we all can learn and share… What do you think John?

PS I refuse to be the one to post #6_6 on this post…

Hi Simon,

I’d like to make few comments before you decide to end this thread and open a new one.

First of all, through the discussion, I’ve learned quite few things from you - several verses that I had never read it before, especially about testing spirits. Indeed, I’ve just started to come to love reading Bible lately when my life makes a good turn towards God. Therefore, I thank you for your time and effort in this discussion.

I believe that testing spirit is not just simply about if a spirit just simply saying or acknowledge Jesus is God. As you already know, Satan can admit Jesus was God. We test them not only what it says but does; we test them by looking at the fruits it produces. The event of Fatima has brought people together, praying for each other, and to come closer to God. Satan, without love, this kind of fruits cannot be produced. Even if it tries, it will run out of patience and most importantly, God will not let it happen.

He is God of Merciful and that He will protect those who honestly want to praise Him. Didn’t Jesus save St. Paul who prosecuted His people, yet Jesus saw his true heart and came to tell Paul the truth and save Him. God will do no difference with you and us all.

By saying this, I do not suggest we should be overconfident. We study His Word, follow the Church’s teaching and that’s what God wants us to do in order to fight Satan. Sadly to say, there is one group at my formal parish, in another state, does not care much about reading Bible. This group is still into Charismatic movement. They’ve been dealing a lot with some spirits. Their pastor knows the danger and warns them about it. He spends more time in his sermon, homily, during the Sunday Mass. However, this group asked him to spend less time in Mass so that they will have more time later after the mass for Charismatic activity. As you see, some do not choose to listen to their “spiritual director” - the pastor.

Back to the Fatima, as you are told, the church has been very careful about this. My suggestion is that you could put aside for now about how Fatima is the work of Satan but focus on how Fatima is the work of God. Start asking people what kinds of fruits the event has been produced - to fight Satan is to find common between Christians and build our relationship upon this foundation. If we are here to fight for the differences, we are not in the real Spiritual War.

God bless you, Simon.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Tom317>>The Church has approved Fatima.

The Church has been known to make mistakes. Hence the need for the Reformation.

If they can make mistakes in other areas, how can I trust they didn’t make a mistake here? It seems convenient for the Church to say that “it’s not required belief”. Either it is or it isn’t. Otherwise, Protestants can return the favour and say that one of the many things they differ on in beliefs between denominations are things that are “not required for belief”, you know, secondary issues?

 

[I_Leatherman]

I don’t understand why God would have Mary appear in a vision to people. ?

Did God give St. John, the Apostle Christ loved best, a vision which included the Woman who bore the Child.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Did God give St. John, the Apostle Christ loved best, a vision which included the Woman who bore the Child.

Could you clarify what you’re saying please?

 

[I_Leatherman]

OK.

You said this:

hoosierdaddy:

I don’t understand why God would have Mary appear in a vision to people. ?

I said this:

“Did God give St. John, the Apostle Christ loved best, a vision which included the Woman who bore the Child.”

        ******************************************

You imply that God does not give people visions of Mary.
The Apostle St.John was given a vision of her, yes?

 

[6glargento]

the fact that it was mary basically testifies that jesus has come in the flesh itself. Also i think what that verse apples to spirits who deny that jesus has come in the flesh. the fact that it talks about jesus being the savior is testifying that jesus has come in the flesh because jesus saved us by comming in the flesh to die for us.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You imply that God does not give people visions of Mary.
The Apostle St.John was given a vision of her, yes?

If you say so. I wasn’t aware of this.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**the fact that it was mary **basically testifies that jesus has come in the flesh itself. Also i think what that verse apples to spirits who deny that jesus has come in the flesh. the fact that it talks about jesus being the savior is testifying that jesus has come in the flesh because jesus saved us by comming in the flesh to die for us.

This begs the question though. How do we know it was Mary? I’m not convinced of the *fact *my friend.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why? Are you superstitious? 666 are just numbers
Jennifer

No I was being funny since this thread is on spirits.

 

[Eireann]

I don’t understand why God would have Mary appear in a vision to people. Hebrews teaches that in times past God has spoken to us by the Prophets but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son. We have God’s Word, the Bible, in which to hear from God from. Until we read, understand, and heed this, why would God send a “vision” that causes so much** “division”? **

Jesus said things that caused division too, didn’t many walk away, was it a satanic message He was preaching ?

People mention fruit. Well, this has caused division. Not too many Protestants agree on it, and Catholics are told they don’t have to believe it but are left with the subtle impression that they should. Since some Catholics believe it and others don’t, then Catholics are **divided **as well. If it is nothing but “private” revelation then why does anyone believe it at all? I’m not going to come right out and say it was the devil but I don’t believe it was Mary or a message from God. It could have been their own imaginations.

And the fruit of protesting, splits, splits, splits, are those from God or satanic ?

Then again, it could have been Mary…but then, why doesn’t Scripture tell us to listen to visions of Mary anywhere in it?

Not everything that happened in the lifetime of Jesus was written down, even you own Bible should say that.

And I’ll ask you as well to show me a satanic prophesy that has come true ?

 

[JaneFrances]

I just wanted to bump. . .

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin
3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Please see posts #565, #648, and Eden’s very concise yet to the point #659! I didn’t want them to be lost in the shuffle as they are meant to answer the OP.

 

[JaneFrances]

I don’t understand why God would have Mary appear in a vision to people. Hebrews teaches that in times past God has spoken to us by the Prophets but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.

I think you may have misunderstood the purpose of this Hebrews passage:

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Here, the Hebraic author is not saying that there will be no more prophets or prophecy. The point is that previously God has spoken through prophets to prepare us for the Son. Since the coming of Christ, all prophets and prophecy speak the message of Christ.

We know, through Sacred Scripture, that there are still prophets and prophecies which guide Christians in the way of Jesus. Such as:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. Acts 15

We have God’s Word, the Bible, in which to hear from God from.

The Bible is not the only source of God’s Word.

Until we read, understand, and heed this, why would God send a “vision” that causes so much “division”?

Jesus said:

Luke 12:51
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Then again, it could have been Mary…but then, why doesn’t Scripture tell us to listen to visions of Mary anywhere in it?

Scripture doesn’t tell us to do a lot of things we SHOULD do and it also doesn’t give us an itemized list of all the things we shouldn’t do.

But Scripture does tell us to listen to godly teachers, prophets, and ministers. Mary, Blessed among women, always witnesses to the saving power of her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

The purpose of this thread is to determine if Mary’s message at Fatima could possibly be of Satan.

Would Satan instruct children to pray this prayer?

O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need.

Would Satan instruct children to reflect on the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ and inspire them to say these words?

Oh, Holy Trinity, we adore You.

These are among the fruits of Fatima. Hopefully, these are not divisive for you!

 

[JonathanKinsman]

**You imply that God does not give people visions of Mary. **

The Apostle St.John was given a vision of her, yes?

If you say so. I wasn’t aware of this.

hoosierpaterfamilias:

You have read Revelation, haven’t you?

Revelation 12:5 says so: isn’t that good enough by your standards?

 

[LilyM]

hoosierpaterfamilias:

You have read Revelation, haven’t you?

Revelation 12:5 says so: isn’t that good enough by your standards?

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Hoosier, the point is John was given a vision in Revelation (Apocalypse) 12 of a crowned woman. I know most Protestants don’t think this can possibly be Mary and would argue that it’s Israel or the Christian Church. We Catholics say it can be and is ALL of those things (multiple meanings, which does sometimes happen in Bible prophecy). So yes, we believe John was granted a vision of Mary.

More importantly - the entire book of Revelation or the Apocalypse is a prophecy about the endtimes, yes??? Written by the Apostle John decades AFTER Christ’s Ascension, yes??? So prophecy continued after Christ’s earthly existence, yes? In fact Paul says that some Christians are given the gift of prophecy, among other gifts.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

hoosierpaterfamilias:

You have read Revelation, haven’t you?

Revelation 12:5 says so: isn’t that good enough by your standards?

Victorinus an ECF’s commentary doesn’t agree with yours, he says the woman is the people of God.

“The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles, which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people…And the crown of twelve stars signifies the choir of fathers, according to the fleshly birth, of whom Christ was to take flesh.” (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, 12:1-2)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hippolytus as well
says that the woman of Revelation 12 is the church. He explains the interpretation as “most manifest”, and he contradicts many details of the Marian interpretation:

“By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the ‘moon under her feet’ he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, ‘upon her head a crown of twelve stars,’ refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, ‘she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered,’ mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. ‘And she brought forth,’ he says, ‘a man-child, who is to rule all the nations;’ by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. And the words, ‘her child was caught up unto God and to His throne,’ signify that he who is always born of her is a heavenly king, and not an earthly; even as David also declared of old when he said, ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.’ ‘And the dragon,’ he says, ‘saw and persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. And to the woman were given two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.’ That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks conceal-meat in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens. For by the mouth of Malachi also He speaks thus: ‘And unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings.’” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I just wanted to bump. . .

Please see posts #565, #648, and Eden’s very concise yet to the point #659! I didn’t want them to be lost in the shuffle as they are meant to answer the OP.

Are these all from the angel visions, because I posted the Mary vision on here, and that wasn’t on it.