Fatima

[maurin]

I had to go back to the OP to remember what this thread was about.
This thread has been very educational for me, I might have agreed with certain posters at the beginning, but as time went on, the true nature of their posts began to be obvious. THEY made up my mind for me.

How about praying the Rosary for peace in the world and conversions, not just for Russia, but worldwide? Those kind of humble prayers, I believe, do more good than people realize.

this is certainly and admittedly an oversimplification, JustaServant, but it bears mentioning that at the root of the problems in the world is exactly the errors of the Russian Revolution of (was it?) 1917: atheism. These errors have spread throughout the world to this very day, culminating in, as one example, a Catholic University inviting a pro-abortion Head of State to address their graduates. By praying for the Concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, we are praying for the world-at-large and for conversions. Russia’s errors have become the world’s errors.

 

[JustaServant]

By praying for the Concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, we are praying for the world-at-large and for conversions. Russia’s errors have become the world’s errors.

Here is the problem: by praying for the Concecration of Russia, you are in effect calling the Pope and Sr. Lucy liars. Now, unless we have some hidden knowledge to formally accuse someone of being a liar (and this has not been proven), isn’t it more prudent to take thier word for it and not desecrate the Rosary for such a purpose? Let’s suppose JP2 and Sr. Lucy are liars. That is between them and God. And since I am no Vatican official, but a mere layman, what is my responsibilty? To start a website and make accusations of conspiracy I cannot prove? Before I became a Baptist minister I spent several years in the journalistic field. I have done the research on this, and I can tell you from a purly secular standpoint, the Fatima Network has NOT proven their case.
No. We would do better to pray the Rosary for peace and conversions. Let God deal with the big things, that’s His job, not ours.

 

[Like]

What a hulabaloo about nothing, the forum allows for bolding, it allows for colours as-well, if we want to write in pink with black for full-stops, then that’s the posters choice.

Writing in uppercase is seen as rude though, this is making a mountain out of a mole-hill, start a thread on how we all should write, now back to the discussion please.

Russia
• First Sermon Given in Russia’s Fatima Shrine

• There Has Already Been a Miracle in Russia

• “Beginning” of Russia’s Conversion

• First Fatima Shrine in Russia Dedicated

Hawkeye, Thank you for these links!!!

For those who still say Russia has not been converted, PLEASE read the links from Hawkeye’s post above! Especially the "Fatima Family Articles"

this is certainly and admittedly an oversimplification, JustaServant, but it bears mentioning that at the root of the problems in the world is exactly the errors of the Russian Revolution of (was it?) 1917: atheism. These errors have spread throughout the world to this very day, culminating in, as one example, a Catholic University inviting a pro-abortion Head of State to address their graduates. By praying for the Concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, we are praying for the world-at-large and for conversions. Russia’s errors have become the world’s errors.

Maurin, VitaminC & RosaryCrusader, indeed all supporters of the SSPX PLEASE read some or all the links above!!!

Here is the problem: by praying for the Concecration of Russia, you are in effect calling the Pope and Sr. Lucy liars. Now, unless we have some hidden knowledge to formally accuse someone of being a liar (and this has not been proven), isn’t it more prudent to take thier word for it and not desecrate the Rosary for such a purpose? Let’s suppose JP2 and Sr. Lucy are liars. That is between them and God. And since I am no Vatican official, but a mere layman, what is my responsibilty? To start a website and make accusations of conspiracy I cannot prove? Before I became a Baptist minister I spent several years in the journalistic field. I have done the research on this, and I can tell you from a purly secular standpoint, the Fatima Network has NOT proven their case.
No. We would do better to pray the Rosary for peace and conversions. Let God deal with the big things, that’s His job, not ours.

My Rosary’s are being said for the conversions of the SSPX:thumbsup:

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Here is the problem: by praying for the Concecration of Russia, you are in effect calling the Pope and Sr. Lucy liars. Now, unless we have some hidden knowledge to formally accuse someone of being a liar (and this has not been proven), isn’t it more prudent to take thier word for it and not desecrate the Rosary for such a purpose? Let’s suppose JP2 and Sr. Lucy are liars. That is between them and God. And since I am no Vatican official, but a mere layman, what is my responsibilty? To start a website and make accusations of conspiracy I cannot prove? Before I became a Baptist minister I spent several years in the journalistic field. I have done the research on this, and I can tell you from a purly secular standpoint, the Fatima Network has NOT proven their case.
No. We would do better to pray the Rosary for peace and conversions. Let God deal with the big things, that’s His job, not ours.

All of this is very simple. Please post a quote from the Pope showing he consecrated Russia. Russia is spelled R-u-s-s-i-a and not w-o-r-l-d.

http://www.devilsfinalbattle.com/appendix.htm

Father Pasquale, a well-known Salesian priest, has known Sister Lucy since 1939. Up to 1982 he has received 157 letters from her. Here is his own testimony, as published in L’Osservatore Romano:

   “I wanted to clarify the question of the Consecration of Russia, in having recourse to the source. On August 5, 1978, in the Carmel of Coimbra, I had a lengthy interview with the seer of Fatima, Sister Lucy. At a certain moment I said to her: ‘Sister, I should like to ask you a question. If you cannot answer me, let it be! But if you can answer it, I would be most grateful to you, for you to clear up a point for me which does not appear clear to many people ... **Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world to Her Immaculate Heart?’** - **‘No, Father Umberto! Never!** At the Cova da Iria in 1917, Our Lady had promised: I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia ... to prevent the spreading of her errors throughout the world, wars among several nations, persecutions against the Church ... In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came back to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the consecration of that country (Russia)’...”

   After this conversation, Father Pasquale, wishing to have a written declaration from Sister Lucy, had addressed this request to her: “Has Our Lady ever spoken to you about the consecration of the world to Her Immaculate Heart?” Father Pasquale then received a written response from Sister Lucy, dated April 13, 1980. A copy is reproduced below.

"Reverend Father Umberto,
In replying to your question, I will clarify:
Our Lady of Fatima, in Her request, referred only to the Consecration of Russia” …

Don’t be offended the next time you ask your Priest for a blessing and he extends his arms over you and blesses the world instead.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Hawkeye, Thank you for these links!!!

For those who still say Russia has not been converted, PLEASE read the links from Hawkeye’s post above! Especially the "Fatima Family Articles"

Maurin, VitaminC & RosaryCrusader, indeed all supporters of the SSPX PLEASE read some or all the links above!!!



My Rosary’s are being said for the conversions of the SSPX:thumbsup:

In an effort to remain objective I read most of the links as time provided but remain unconvinced especially at the notion that somehow the distribution of a few holy cards illustrates a miraculous conversion of a nation.

Now let me provide you with a link, a timeline and summary:

devilsfinalbattle.com/appendix.htm

 

[RosaryCrusader]

For those who think the consecration has been performed: why are you not convinced of the prior attempts at the consecration by Pius XII, Paul VI, and the other attempts by John Paul II?

Can anyone recall their Bishop’s public ceremony in 1984 in union with the Pope’s consecration? Did your Bishop participate?

 

[VitaminC]

Here is the problem: by praying for the Concecration of Russia, you are in effect calling the Pope and Sr. Lucy liars.

Wrong. We have no cogent evidence that Pope JPII or Sr. Lucia ever gave assurances as to Consecration. What evidence there is from supposed letters of Sr. Lucia have been exposed as frauds. And one of her own relatives in 1990 warned about any computer-generated letters supposedly from Sr. Lucia, and this includes the purported letter to Fr. Fox.

Sr. Lucia stated unequivocally in an interview with Sol de Fatima Magazine in 1985
that the 1984 consecration had failed.

In 1986, her cousin, Maria de Fetal, after meeting with Sr. Lucia made a public statement that the consecration had failed.

In 1987, Sr. Lucia was interviewed by reporter Enrico Romero. She told him the 1984 consecration had failed. Her answer to this question was published.

In 1989, Fr. Coelho confirmed that Sr. Lucia’s community had received an order from the Vatican mandating that everyone begin saying the 1984 consecration was sufficient. Fr. Coelho told multiple people this news.

We have multiple cardinals from 1985 to 1989 stating that the 1984 consecration had failed.

Fr. Malachi Martin warned in the '90’s that letters had been fabricated and forged with Sr. Lucia’s signature.

Pope JPII himself, after the 1984 consecration, referred to the consecration which the Blessed Virgin was still “awaiting.”

Now, unless we have some hidden knowledge to formally accuse someone of being a liar (and this has not been proven), isn’t it more prudent to take thier word for it and not desecrate the Rosary for such a purpose? Let’s suppose JP2 and Sr. Lucy are liars.

No, let’s not. The claim by people like Ferrara, Socci, Gruner, Kramer, et al., has never been that Sr. Lucia and JPII lied. The claim is that other people (like Cardinal Bertone and Fr. Fox) lied about what Sr. Lucia and JPII said, and that letters with her name on it had been forged.

 

[Like]

In an effort to remain objective I read most of the links as time provided but remain unconvinced especially at the notion that somehow the distribution of a few holy cards illustrates a miraculous conversion of a nation.

Now let me provide you with a link, a timeline and summary:

devilsfinalbattle.com/appendix.htm

RC, If you had time to read your link, then you should have plenty of time to read Hawkeye’s links. Mr. Gruner is now in it for the money & to use the link you provided as a legitimate site on Fatima is a joke.

Can anyone recall their Bishop’s public ceremony in 1984 in union with the Pope’s consecration? Did your Bishop participate?

Can you provide any Bishop who has said they were not in union with Pope JP II The Great in March 1984?

And was it to be a public ceremony?

 

[peary]

1. Pius XI, on March 19, 1930, makes a solemn Act of Reparation to the Lord for the injuries that He receives from Russia. This act, evidently, would not respond to the petitions of Heaven at Fatima.
2. Pius XI in the beginning of 1937, receives the petition for the Consecration of Russia which the Bishop of Fatima makes at the request of Sister Lucy. But nothing was done to fulfill this specific request.
3. In May 1938, the Portuguese Episcopacy makes the petition to the Pope of the consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary without result.
4. Pius XII, in the summer of 1940, finally receives two indications about the Consecration of Russia that Heaven requests by means of Sister Lucy. Nothing is done.
5. October 31 and December 8, 1942, Pope Pius XII makes the consecration of the world with special mention of Russia. But this act was neither the particular Consecration of Russia, nor was it made in union with all the bishops of the world.
6. July 7, 1952, in the Encyclical Letter Ad universos Rusiae populos, Pope Pius XII seemed to satisfy all the conditions:

a) The consecration of all the Russian people was the complement of the consecration of the world and it was done as a result of the Pope being moved by numerous petitions.

b) The Pope clearly made the distinction between the condemnation of the errors of atheistic communism, that he rejects, and the “erring” whom he calls paternally to the truth.

c) And after pointing out the uniquely spiritual purposes of his act, he then makes the act of consecration in the following words:

*Nos interea, ut Nostrae vestraeque preces supplicationes-que facilius exaudiantur, utque singulare erga vos benevolentiae Nostrae praebeamus documentum, quemadmodem paucis ante annis universum hominum genus Inmmaculato Deiparae Virginis Cordi consecravimus, ita in praesenscunctos Russiarum populus eidem Immaculato Corde peculiarissimo dedicamus ac consecramus… *

“We therefore, in order that Our and Your prayers and supplications may be heard more easily, and in order to give You a special proof of Our benevolence toward You as of a few years ago, we consecrated the whole human race to the Immaculate Heart of the Mother of God, *thus now we dedicate and we consecrate in an absolutely particular manner to the same Immaculate Heart, the people of the Russias …” *

A little later, in February 1943, Sr. Lucia wrote:

“The Good God had already demonstrated to me His contentment with the act (of consecration), although incomplete, following His desire, of the Holy Father and several bishops. In return it was promised the war would end soon (World War II). The conversion of Russia will not be for now”.

That is to say since the act that was carried out is incomplete, not satisfying all the conditions required by Heaven, the grace promised of the conversion of Russia will not be granted as yet. Although other graces will be granted: i.e. shortening the present war.

The Act of Consecration was satisfied in 1984.

 

[I_Believe]

I Believe, I’ve found the full text, it’s located on vatican.va. VitaminC, please pay special attention to the highlit paragraph as it portains to a previous post.

‘We have recourse to your protection, holy Mother of God!’ Despise not our petitions in our necessities”.

The Pope then continued more forcefully and with more specific references, as though commenting on the Message of Fatima in its sorrowful fulfilment:

“Behold, as we stand before you, Mother of Christ, before your Immaculate Heart, we desire, together with the whole Church, to unite ourselves with the consecration which, for love of us, your Son made of himself to the Father: ‘For their sake’, he said, ‘I consecrate myself that they also may be consecrated in the truth’ (Jn 17:19). We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this his consecration for the world and for the human race, which, in his divine Heart, has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation.

The power of this consecrationlasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.

How deeply we feel the need for the consecration of humanity and the world—our modern world—in union with Christ himself! For the redeeming work of Christ must be shared in by the world through the Church.

The present Year of the Redemption shows this: the special Jubilee of the whole Church.

Above all creatures, may you be blessed, you, the Handmaid of the Lord, who in the fullest way obeyed the divine call!

Hail to you, who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son!

Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.
In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly Heart.

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!

From famine and war, deliver us.

From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us.

From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us.

From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us.

From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us.

From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us.

From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us.

From the loss of awareness of good and evil, deliver us.

From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us, deliver us.

Accept, O Mother of Christ, this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings, laden with the sufferings of whole societies.

Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all sin: individual sin and the ‘sin of the world’, sin in all its manifestations.

Let there be revealed, once more, in the history of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption: the power of merciful Love! May it put a stop to evil! May it transform consciences! May your Immaculate Heart reveal for all the light of Hope!”.(4)

A belated thank you. I’ve been avoiding these debates for awhile.

I asked a local priest what he thinks. He said, “No matter about the world Consecration, Fatima remains a worthy devotion, but Our Lady has appeared since then at Medjugorje, and she has expressed no concern over the Consecration. So if it was of importance, surely she would have mentioned it” .

Wow.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

A belated thank you. I’ve been avoiding these debates for awhile.

I asked a local priest what he thinks. He said, “No matter about the world Consecration, Fatima remains a worthy devotion, but Our Lady has appeared since then at Medjugorje, and she has expressed no concern over the Consecration. So if it was of importance, surely she would have mentioned it” .

Wow.

Next time ask Fr. S.

 

[Victorious]

I may have missed this in the thread, but I was wondering, what exactly does it mean to “consecrate” a country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? Like, what are the steps, what are the words, what does it mean.

To consecrate a country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is to make a gift of that country to her, so that she may take it under her special patronage and protection. It is to entrust that nation’s people, possessions and affairs to her Heart. The Blessed Mother never wastes or loses anything that is entrusted to her.

In his 1984 act of consecration, Pope John Paul II incorporated by reference the consecrations of Pius XII. Incorporation by reference is commonplace in legal proceedings and documents, and has the same effect as actually naming or setting forth the incorporated object in full. Here is a link to the texts. Here is the relevant passage from the 1984 consecration:

We find ourselves united with all the pastors of the Church in a particular bond whereby we constitute a body and a college, just as by Christ’s wish the Apostles constituted a body and college with Peter.

In the bond of this union, we utter the words of the present Act, in which we wish to include, once more, the Church’s hopes and anxieties for the modern world.

Forty years ago and again ten years later, your servant Pope Pius XII, having before his eyes the painful experiences of the human family, entrusted and consecrated to your Immaculate Heart the whole world, especially the peoples for which by reason of their situation you have particular love and solicitude.

This world of individuals and nations we too have before our eyes today: the world of the second millennium that is drawing to a close, the modern world, our world!

The Church, mindful of the Lord’s words: “Go… and make disciples of all nations… and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:19-20), has, at the Second Vatican Council, given fresh life to her awareness of her mission in this world.

And therefore, O Mother of individuals and peoples, you who know all their sufferings and their hopes, you who have a mother’s awareness of all the struggles between good and evil, between light and darkness, which afflict the modern world, accept the cry which we, moved by the Holy Spirit, address directly to your Heart. Embrace, with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord, this human world of ours, which we entrust and consecrate to you, for we are full of concern for the earthly and eternal destiny of individuals and peoples.

In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated.

 

[hawkeye]

Anyway, watch this space, " someday there will be a Statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary a-top the Kremlin " Saint Maximilian Kolbe.

 

[I_Believe]

Next time ask Fr. S.

Fr. C.S. ? I’m sure I’d get a wiser answer from him

 

[marymol]

Today, July 13th, another anniv.of a Fatima apparition -

ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/July.htm

The events possibly well familiar to many here ; while by no means having any indepth knowledge of the apparition or lesser still, often failing to ’ offer up’ the sufferings , for conversion …yet , thought worthwhile to share this , since it could help to shift some of the focus to the biblical and ever present exhortaion - for unity in The Church .

Having read on previous threads how it was that call for the unity ( with the Sacramental Orthodox Church ) that was partially met , after years of prayers and pleadings by the faithful , at the 1984 consecration ( in which some of their Bishops were able to be present ) and with well seen good effects to follow …even if still only partially …

As more and more hearts become consecrated to Divine Mercy , the many apparent divisions would be overcome …and hearts that are at present often under power of agents of hate and lies would be set free…

Today is also Feast of Pope and St .Anacletus

magnificat.ca/cal/engl/07-13.htm

May the prayers of all holy saints and Apostles continue to lead us , help our hearts to be united , by the Holy Spirit , through prayers of our Bl.Mother .

Peace !