Fatwa's, by whose authority?

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iamrefreshed:
Emad, When you use religion as a base for war you are doomed.

In my church, and every Catholic church in the world we have a part of our Mass called the Prayer of the Faithful. This is when we ask God to hear our prayer and, as a group, say “Lord, hear our prayer”. I tell you this because every Sunday, in my church, we hear

" Lord we pray for peace in the Middle East" and we respond

“Lord hear our prayer”

I’ll not debate politics with you Emad. I’m not smart enough and you are not old enough.
Hello Iamrefreshed I am very happy that you won’t debate politics with me, because debating politics really gets us no where. As Muslims we also pray for peace all over the world. However Islam is a complete way of life. It teaches us what to do when attacked. If a robber entered your home, what would you do? Would you not defend yourself?
 
“Islam is a complete way of life. It teaches us what to do when attacked. If a robber entered your home, what would you do? Would you not defend yourself?”

A “way of life” is a good thing, Emad, for all people who believe violence should be avoided.
In that house you mention, what if a dictator had taken your family hostage? Thrown one in the basement, gassed another? Attacked a neighboring family? Invited some other criminals to stay in your home a few nights, and possibly threatened another resident down the street who was already upset over an attack from another dirtbag?
This “robber” warns the dictator to get out of your house. When he doesn’t, the “robber” enters the home and removes the dictator. The “robber” accidently damages some furniture, roughs up a family member that is mistakenly identified as one of the dictator’s gang members. One of the “robbers” actually does steal an item.
In the view of some, the “robber”, while meaning well but not perfect, would not be a thief as you allege but a “liberator” in this case. (PS – that liberator better get the heck out of your house real soon, though.)

“debating politics really gets us no where”

I agree. But then right after stating that, you go into the house robber analogy. Let’s get back into the original subject – fatwa. I just find it real disturbing that there are people who kill themselves and innocents, claiming God told them to do it.
The U.S. may be wrong, but it’s government is not quoting Scripture to justify its actions.
But that is the fundamental problem, the fundamental difference between the Muslim culture and the U.S. As you said, Islam is a way of life; Arab government and religion are so intertwined that there is no distinction – a theocracy. In the U.S., while religion certainly has it’s influences, we strive to make it an individual choice – a way of life for each individual.

Jim

Add: Thanks to the poster that provided the link fatwa.com. It had Muslim theology that was reassuring to me. I just hope the people who expressed those views can exert some control over violent fundamentalists.
 
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Emad:
Iamrefreshed Islam teaches us to defend ourselves. If any army invades any country they have the right to defend themselves am I wrong? This is something that almost the entire world agress upon. If a man invaded my house I would surely defend myself. Or do you expect me to jump for joy because he invaded me claiming to liberate me and give me freedom?
And Christianity teaches that a person can use lethal action in self defense. The U.S. isn’t using religion to defend its actions. The government claimed international law permited military intervention.

I find it interesting/disturbing that as a U.S. citizen you write in the first person regarding Iraq. You seem to identify ENTIRELY with Iraqis. Because they are Muslim? Again, this isn’t about Muslim vs Christian, is it? It’s politics, and we said it wouldn’t do any good to discuss that.
(PS – And it isn’t as simple as good guy vs “a Robber.” It’s more complicated than that. Some of the complications are unnecessarily religious – by violent Muslim fundamentalists, in my opinion. My opinion also believes violent Christian fundamentalists are dangerous, too.)

Jim
 
Lt.Tony, the muslims are one body, what happens to our brothers and sisters around the world is are concern and should feel as if we are in their shoes. Doesn’t christianty teach the same?

wa salam
 
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fatuma:
Lt.Tony, the muslims are one body, what happens to our brothers and sisters around the world is are concern and should feel as if we are in their shoes. Doesn’t christianty teach the same?

wa salam
No Fatuma, Christianity teaches us that ALL mankind are our brothers and sisters.😃
 
LtTony said:
“Islam is a complete way of life. It teaches us what to do when attacked. If a robber entered your home, what would you do? Would you not defend yourself?”

A “way of life” is a good thing, Emad, for all people who believe violence should be avoided.
In that house you mention, what if a dictator had taken your family hostage? Thrown one in the basement, gassed another? Attacked a neighboring family? Invited some other criminals to stay in your home a few nights, and possibly threatened another resident down the street who was already upset over an attack from another dirtbag?
This “robber” warns the dictator to get out of your house. When he doesn’t, the “robber” enters the home and removes the dictator. The “robber” accidently damages some furniture, roughs up a family member that is mistakenly identified as one of the dictator’s gang members. One of the “robbers” actually does steal an item.
In the view of some, the “robber”, while meaning well but not perfect, would not be a thief as you allege but a “liberator” in this case. (PS – that liberator better get the heck out of your house real soon, though.)

“debating politics really gets us no where”

I agree. But then right after stating that, you go into the house robber analogy. Let’s get back into the original subject – fatwa. I just find it real disturbing that there are people who kill themselves and innocents, claiming God told them to do it.
The U.S. may be wrong, but it’s government is not quoting Scripture to justify its actions.
But that is the fundamental problem, the fundamental difference between the Muslim culture and the U.S. As you said, Islam is a way of life; Arab government and religion are so intertwined that there is no distinction – a theocracy. In the U.S., while religion certainly has it’s influences, we strive to make it an individual choice – a way of life for each individual.

Jim

Add: Thanks to the poster that provided the link fatwa.com. It had Muslim theology that was reassuring to me. I just hope the people who expressed those views can exert some control over violent fundamentalists.

I would like to make my stance clear: I believe that any country that is invaded by an outside army has the right to defend itself regardless of the religion of the people. It is illegal under international law to occupy any country. Also there are dictators all over the world, why did the USA only choose to invade Iraq? Saying Saddam was a threat is a joke. America knew everything about him, they even knew when he went to the bathroom. Why not get rid of the dictators in Jordan and Egypt, and Cuba for example? Also saying Arab government and religion are so intertwined really makes me laugh. The Arab governments fight everything that is Islamic and I seen this with my own eyes. (No need to answer this) I will not reply to any more posts regarding this issue.
 
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fatuma:
Lt.Tony, the muslims are one body, what happens to our brothers and sisters around the world is are concern and should feel as if we are in their shoes. Doesn’t christianty teach the same?
iamrefreshed answered it pretty well. We should treat each other as human beings, God’s children. Period
Here’s the difficulty I have: all of this is a political problem, not a religious one. So why bring religion into it? As far as I can tell, that’s the Arab way. Not saying bad way or good way, just Arab way. And I don’t understand it. But I’m trying. That’s why I’m having this discussion with you.
I’ll give you an example: my family is Catholic. My Catholic uncles fought in WWII… against Italy. Italy, as you know, is basically Catholic. That didn’t make a difference, though, because the conflict was about politics, power, idealogies, etc. NOT religion. Now, my uncles could have made it religious. But they had the sense not to.
Do you see the difference?

Jim
 
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Emad:
I would like to make my stance clear: I believe that any country that is invaded by an outside army has the right to defend itself regardless of the religion of the people. It is illegal under international law to occupy any country. Also there are dictators all over the world, why did the USA only choose to invade Iraq? Saying Saddam was a threat is a joke. America knew everything about him, they even knew when he went to the bathroom. Why not get rid of the dictators in Jordan and Egypt, and Cuba for example? Also saying Arab government and religion are so intertwined really makes me laugh. The Arab governments fight everything that is Islamic and I seen this with my own eyes. (No need to answer this) I will not reply to any more posts regarding this issue.
Well, I’m sorry you feel that way. I meant no disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion, and I, mine. I stand by my characterization of theocracies’ role in the Muslim world. That is their choice, though. I just think it can get in the way of a peaceful resolution to a dispute.
I certainly would like a dialogue that would provide me with more information, however, because my perception could be wrong. I would be OK with being wrong, with having to change my opinion. But I can get information from other folks on this board and elsewhere. And if in the course of that dialogue – that exchange of ideas – they change their view, great. So be it.
And let me make my postion clear: I would like nothing better than to get out of Iraq. It was a mistake. Well intended, I believe, but a mistake. Generally speaking.
But like I said earlier, the thread is about fatwas. If you were still responding I would ask how you feel about Osama Bin Laden and fatwas that support his brand of religion.

Jim
 
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LtTony:
Well, I’m sorry you feel that way. I meant no disrespect. You are entitled to your opinion, and I, mine. I stand by my characterization of theocracies’ role in the Muslim world. That is their choice, though. I just think it can get in the way of a peaceful resolution to a dispute.
I certainly would like a dialogue that would provide me with more information, however, because my perception could be wrong. I would be OK with being wrong, with having to change my opinion. But I can get information from other folks on this board and elsewhere. And if in the course of that dialogue – that exchange of ideas – they change their view, great. So be it.
And let me make my postion clear: I would like nothing better than to get out of Iraq. It was a mistake. Well intended, I believe, but a mistake. Generally speaking.
But like I said earlier, the thread is about fatwas. If you were still responding I would ask how you feel about Osama Bin Laden and fatwas that support his brand of religion.

Jim
Yes I meant I would not respond about politics. However please show me a fatwa that supports Osamas cause and I will tell you how I feel about it.
 
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LtTony:
iamrefreshed answered it pretty well. We should treat each other as human beings, God’s children. Period
Here’s the difficulty I have: all of this is a political problem, not a religious one. So why bring religion into it? As far as I can tell, that’s the Arab way. Not saying bad way or good way, just Arab way. And I don’t understand it. But I’m trying. That’s why I’m having this discussion with you.
I’ll give you an example: my family is Catholic. My Catholic uncles fought in WWII… against Italy. Italy, as you know, is basically Catholic. That didn’t make a difference, though, because the conflict was about politics, power, idealogies, etc. NOT religion. Now, my uncles could have made it religious. But they had the sense not to.
Do you see the difference?

Jim
As Muslims religion involves everything. If something happens we look at it and see what our religion teaches us, then we follow it. For example if a Muslim joins the US army, he is not allowed to go to a country and fight a war such as vietnam. However he would be allowed to go and fight if it were for a just cause or to remove injustice or go on a peace making mission not soley for political benefits. Religion plays a role in every part of our life. We have no seperation between relgion and society.
 
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Emad:
Yes I meant I would not respond about politics. However please show me a fatwa that supports Osamas cause and I will tell you how I feel about it.
How about OBL’s own fatwa of Feb 23, 1998? I understand he has a couple more.
 
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LtTony:
How about OBL’s own fatwa of Feb 23, 1998? I understand he has a couple more.
As far as my knowledge OBL is not qualified to give a fatwa!!
 
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Emad:
As Muslims religion involves everything. If something happens we look at it and see what our religion teaches us, then we follow it. For example if a Muslim joins the US army, he is not allowed to go to a country and fight a war such as vietnam. However he would be allowed to go and fight if it were for a just cause or to remove injustice or go on a peace making mission not soley for political benefits. Religion plays a role in every part of our life. We have no seperation between relgion and society.
  1. That is very, very similar to the American view on individual religious freedom. However, ours is a secularized society. You are a U.S. resident, no? Would you not agree? That Americans very intently try to keep religion and government separate? But sometimes that is difficult?
  2. I pray that my religion would play a role in every part of my life and in the lives of each person. It is the nobelest objective I can think of.
  3. One of the primary reason’s for #1 above is to protect religious minorities, wouldn’t you say? When one religion, political party, race, ethnic group dominates government and/or society, there can be a negative impact on minorities.
 
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Emad:
As far as my knowledge OBL is not qualified to give a fatwa!!
Yes, based of what I have learned of fatwas he probably isn’t. I don’t know about the others, but I had/have difficulty distinguishing between fatwas, jihads, unofficial religious edicts, clerics’ published opinions, etc.
Here are some sites that have been helpful to me:

apologeticsindex.org/f30.html#narchive
i-cias.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?fatwa.htm
why-war.com/commentary/2003/12/what_fatwa_islam.html
why-war.com/news/2003/12/12/resurgen.html

fatwa against osama: foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150066,00.html

Jim
 
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Emad:
As Muslims religion involves everything. If something happens we look at it and see what our religion teaches us, then we follow it. For example if a Muslim joins the US army, he is not allowed to go to a country and fight a war such as vietnam. However he would be allowed to go and fight if it were for a just cause or to remove injustice or go on a peace making mission not soley for political benefits. Religion plays a role in every part of our life. We have no seperation between relgion and society.
In that case Emad a Muslim should NEVER join the US military. I’ve served in the military. There is an oath you must take to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief. It is a serious oath with serious implications if you disobey.
 
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iamrefreshed:
In that case Emad a Muslim should NEVER join the US military. I’ve served in the military. There is an oath you must take to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief. It is a serious oath with serious implications if you disobey.
As Muslims it is our duty to obey our leaders, unless they order us to disobey God. Then we disobey them and obey God.
 
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Emad:
As Muslims it is our duty to obey our leaders, unless they order us to disobey God. Then we disobey them and obey God.
Therefore, by your own logic, if a Muslim in the US military must fight another Muslim, he would have to disobey?

Would this be true even if the Muslim being fought with was wrong?

Example, may a US military man who is also Muslim seek out to find and kill Osama bin Laden?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emad
As Muslims it is our duty to obey our leaders, unless they order us to disobey God. Then we disobey them and obey God.
Therefore, by your own logic, if a Muslim in the US military must fight another Muslim, he would have to disobey?

Would this be true even if the Muslim being fought with was wrong?

Example, may a US military man who is also Muslim seek out to find and kill Osama bin Laden?
By the reasoning of Emad, I think the US military authorities should investigate US muslim soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan? I already have doubts of muslims that there is only one thing I could say; “Never trust them.”

Pio
 
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Emad:
As far as my knowledge OBL is not qualified to give a fatwa!!..However please show me a fatwa that supports Osamas cause and I will tell you how I feel about it.
In your opinion, do most Muslims believe the same as you on this?

And in the earlier post, you implied there are no fatwas in support of OBL. Is my intrepretation correct?

Jim
 
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iamrefreshed:
Therefore, by your own logic, if a Muslim in the US military must fight another Muslim, he would have to disobey?

Would this be true even if the Muslim being fought with was wrong?

Example, may a US military man who is also Muslim seek out to find and kill Osama bin Laden?
Fighting a Muslim who is an oppressor is not wrong. Again we have to be sure that he is guilty. We don’t just go by what the Media or the Army commander says.
 
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