Favorite Mass Settings?

[japhy]

Also, do you all know of the most recent Vatican documents concerning music in the liturgy ? I’d like to check them out.

Here are the most recent documents from the Vatican on music (since Vatican II), in reverse chronological order:

2003 - Pope John Paul II’s Chirograph on Pope Pius X’s motu proprio “Tra le Sollecitudini”

1974 - Pope Paul VI’s booklet of Gregorian Chant for parishes (Jubilate Deo) and the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship’s accompanying letter Voluntati Obsequens)

1967 - The Sacred Congregation of Rites instruction on music in the liturgy Musicam Sacram

 

[VociMike]

Here are the most recent documents from the Vatican on music (since Vatican II), in reverse chronological order:

2003 - Pope John Paul II’s Chirograph on Pope Pius X’s motu proprio “Tra le Sollecitudini”

1974 - Pope Paul VI’s booklet of Gregorian Chant for parishes (Jubilate Deo) and the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship’s accompanying letter Voluntati Obsequens)

1967 - The Sacred Congregation of Rites instruction on music in the liturgy Musicam Sacram

And add the very recent Sacramentum Caritatis, which explictly calls for Gregorian chant to be suitably esteemed as the song proper to the Roman Rite.

And also read John Paul II’s words which call for a return of beauty and dignity to sacred music, and a musical examination of conscience regarding the music that is used in the liturgy.

 

[Sarabande]

The MJD was the selection provided by Pope Paul VI in his 1974 chant handbook Jubilate Deo; I should have made that clear. It’s not an “official” Mass setting.

No problem. I was actually in ignorance of that particular chant handbook, so it’s nice to know about that one.

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t know if the OP would be interested in this, but the “Graduale Simplex” might be a nice way of introducing chant in your parish. These are simpler chants and not as difficult and complex as some of the others.

I never knew about this book until recently. Last week, I found out from our music director who is also the organist and music director for the Archdiocesan masses, etc., that the new Director of Worship will be using our parish (cathedral parish) as the model for the entire diocese - namely using the propers for mass, rather than hymns, although we would be able to use a choral motet or hymn after the communion propers, etc. He would like to use the Graduale Simplex as a starting point, especially since the chants are simple enough for the average person to learn by rote and easy enough for a volunteer choir.

He knows it will take time, but eventually, he (with the blessing from the bishop apparently) will want the entire diocese to be doing this. They are already planning workshops/courses, etc. for liturgical musicians and directors. It’s actually a bit exciting.

Oh… and they want to also extend this to wedding masses and funeral masses. So, I need to purchase one of these myself, since I’m a musician at the cathedral for weddings and funerals, I will definitely need to know the propers for these sooner than later.

Anyway, it might be something the OP would be interested in looking into him/herself.

 

[Cat]

It will be very interesting to recall this discussion 20 years from now, if we are all alive, God willing.

I have to admit, I’m a skeptic. I’m sorry, I know that doesn’t set well in this thread.

I really, truly do not believe that Americans will accept ancient music in Mass. I’m sorry, everyone, but I just can’t believe it.

I think that Americans have little or no concept of what corporate singing is. We do not sing together for fun. A piano in the dining room used to be a staple in houses, and people would gather around the piano and sing all the latest songs, as well as all the old folk songs.

My mother taught me and my brother many of the old “songs of the South” while we growing up, and we would often sing together for fun.

But no one does this anymore.

No one sings while they work anymore (I do, and people often comment on it, and not always favorably, so I try to keep it to a low hum).

Kids used to sing on the playground while doing various games, but I haven’t heard that in a long time.

We just don’t have any concept of singing together in the U.S… We see “singing” as something that we watch professionals do. We are a nation of spectators when it comes to music.

At least the simple hymns, especially the more modern ones, and the more familiar traditional hymns, are do-able by poor singers who aren’t used to doing it themselves.

But chant–? Ai yi yi?!

I think most people in the congregation will sit in stony silence. A few might attempt it, but when they hear how awful they sound, they will clam up and sit there like rocks.

And sadly, I think many will leave the Church because they long to hear music with melodies, which is what pleases American ears. I LIKE music with melodies. I dislike dissonance in music. Maybe after listening to it for 50 years, I could re-train my ears and brain. But I don’t have 50 years left.

As for teenagers–well, I’m sure some will pick it up. But I don’t think most will. I am the chair of a large classical music competition, and our high school vocal division is often cancelled. The voice teachers tell us that the students aren’t interested in learning classics. And since the teachers have to make a living, they teach what the students are willing to pay for.

I think the same thing will happen in the Church. When the teens start walking out the door and either staying home from church entirely, or heading down to the megachurch with the rock band, I think that the adults in the Church will refuse to sing the weird stuff and demand the simple hymns again, for the sake of their childrens’ souls.

I think the children will be most open to ancient music. So perhaps in 20 years, if the children are indoctrinated with chant and all the rest of the liturgical stuff, it might just make a come-back in the church.

But I happen to know that our Catholic school just hired a new music teacher who is rumored to be “contemporary” in her approach to Catholic music.

If the parents (who pay the tuition that keeps the school open) have no objections to “contemporary,” well, I think she’ll keep the job.

So when exactly will the children learn “chant,” etc.?

I was Protestant for years, and many Protestants, including a lot of the rock musicians, are trying to get “traditional hymns” back into their churches. It doesn’t seem to work. Everyone is leaving the “traditional” churches and flocking to the megachurch with the professional band and singers. They’ve forgotten how to sing together, as we are instructed to do in Ephesians 5:19. I see the same thing in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry, everyone. Like I said, I’m a real skeptic. I’ll believe it when I see it.

If there are classes in ancient music, chant, or whatever, offered in my diocese, I would certainly attend and be open to learning the “old” stuff. I like the older hymns (not the Latin ones, which I don’t understand). I’m not exactly sure that a piano is useful with this kind of music, though, and that makes me sad. I like to play in church. Oh, well.

 

[muffinmojo]

Actually I’m in my early twenties so I completely missed the seventies I’m actually more interested in stuff like what Matt Maher does…his music for the Mass tends to be very prayerful and teen oriented too. I think he pretty much missed the whole (or most off) the whole 70s folk Mass thing I’ve heard about.

Here’s a link to his version of the “Holy” I’d like to know what you all think…“Holy” by Matt Maher

Ehh…I know I’d rather hear a Gregorian Chant Sanctus. The other Catholics teens I know, even those who go to churches that use modern music, would too…

It’s not about modern vs traditional. Chant is timeless. Done properly, it makes any Mass more sacred. Teenagers, I think, deeply want to be more ‘grown up’. While making a Mass that’s tailored to their musical tastes may seem appealing at the moment, i think it would have a more lasting impact were it to take them seriously, and give them the same music Catholics have had for millenia.

Also, it’s worth noting that just because something isn’t appropriate for the liturgy doesn’t mean it is bad music. One of my favorite pieces, Mozart’s Requiem Mass, is completely unsuitable for liturgical use, in my opinion. It is a performance, and it is about the singers, not God. I like listening to it, but I wouldn’t like to see it used in its original setting.

Hope to hear back from you on how your teenagers respond to chant, at some point =)

 

[HealedOne]

Hello Again All

And sadly, I think many will leave the Church because they long to hear music with melodies, which is what pleases American ears. I LIKE music with melodies. I dislike dissonance in music. Maybe after listening to it for 50 years, I could re-train my ears and brain. But I don’t have 50 years left.

Cat, I can definitely empathize. There were a few things that struck me when listening to chant at Mass (on You Tube)…

1. It was in Latin. I think it’s hard enough to engage the senses fully at Mass for me when it’s in English; I can imagine it would be much more difficult for teens to focus and sing along.
2. The melody was unfamiliar to my Western ears. This makes it hard to simply pick up quickly.
3. It seems to have a rhythmic structure which is different than most (if not all) other Western music making this chant hard to follow.

It does not seem that chant would be the best kind liturgical music for our parish to employ, at this time anyway; and for the particular Mass in question.

If there are classes in ancient music, chant, or whatever, offered in my diocese, I would certainly attend and be open to learning the “old” stuff. I like the older hymns (not the Latin ones, which I don’t understand). I’m not exactly sure that a piano is useful with this kind of music, though, and that makes me sad. I like to play in church. Oh, well.

Cat, again…I can empathize. Reading all the posts on these forums it seems that a chant Mass would have no place for any of the instruments I play (drums and guitar) However, I can definitely see the liturgical justification for moving in the direction of chant at Mass. There is no question that our Holy Father wishes that Gregorian Chant be given “pride of place” in liturgical celebrations.

However, in my research I have yet to see a place where John Paul II or our current Pope Benedict XVI has explicitly forbidden the use of any other kind of music at Mass; other than Gregorian Chant. Maybe our Holy Father favors a gradual phasing out of all liturgical music which is not Gregorian Chant; in the Latin Rite ? Maybe he is only indicating his preference and that of the Holy See ? I’m not sure.

Ehh…I know I’d rather hear a Gregorian Chant Sanctus. The other Catholics teens I know, even those who go to churches that use modern music, would too…

Thanks for your opinion and thoughts muffinmojo. I have a question for you about Gregorian Chant as Benedict XVI writes about it. Does he mean Gregorian Chant done in Latin only and with no harmony or is the Gregorian Chant “tent” bigger than this understanding? I may not have as much knowledge about this than you do, actually I probably don’t.

Please keep the posts coming and thank you all :tiphat:

 

[Guitar]

1. The melody was unfamiliar to my Western ears. This makes it hard to simply pick up quickly.
2. It seems to have a rhythmic structure which is different than most (if not all) other Western music making this chant hard to follow.

You won’t pick up chant quickly as you would a catchy song melody but when you do pick up a chant, it is “under your skin” for a long time so it’s worth the effort. I insisted we sing Veni Creator Spiritus this last Pentecost; elderly folks who swear they hadn’t sung it since primary school were able to do so. Also, when I learn a chant, rather than try to memorise a long sequence of this-note-then-that-note-then-this-other-note I get a feel for the intervals instead. I’ve had to teach a few people to sing the Exultet for the Easter Vigil and once they can recognise and sing three particular intervals they can “sight read” their way through it comfortably without having to slavishly memorise it. And once they’ve sung it two or three times, they’ve got it down pat anyway.

Also, chant doesn’t have rhythm in the same way that song melodies do. Some notes are held longer than others, but it is a matter of relative duration rather than “rhythm” as such. It is sung by groups much the same way as spoken text is recited by groups - hundreds of people can say the Creed or the Our Father together without a specified “rhythm” but it all hangs together.

Some chants can be sung to a song-like rhythm (the advent chant Veni Emmanuel being one, which you should be able to find in many hymnals) but it’s mostly like putting a square peg in a round hole. My problem with many published organ accompaniments for chant is that they turn it into something forced and unnatural. One accompaniment for Veni Emmanuel, for example, bogs it down completely with one organ chord per syllable so it can’t proceed any faster than dirge pace. In forcing a song rhythm on the refrain it actually fights the text, in English at least, anyway - 'Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel shall come to you, O Israel" comes out, “Rejoice, rejoice, Emmanuel. Shall come to you O Israel”, which is silly. Remove the rhythm and you can sing the text sensibly. Chant was never accompanied and once we decide people can’t sing without a keyboard and we start adding accompaniments, we often start trying to impose rhythm on it to the detriment of the flow and sense of the text.

I’m no chant expert but I hope that helps a bit.

 

[SenorSalsa]

Here’s a link to his version of the “Holy” I’d like to know what you all think…“Holy” by Matt Maher

Also, do you all know of the most recent Vatican documents concerning music in the liturgy ? I’d like to check them out.
Thanks Again Everyone

While I don’t particularly care for that one, I think his Lamb of God is nice, and even throws in some Latin. I do have some reservations about posting this link, because it has many things that I think detract from the songs potential. First, it is played way to fast. Secondly, it has some weird verse at the beginning, and third it changes to “Bread of Life” the second go round, which i dont think is allowed. When it was played at a Mass I was at, we did Lamb of God twice, then Agnus Dei, at a nice comfortable tempo. It doesn’t need to be dragged, but this recording feels rushed.
spiritandsong.com/musicondemand/songs/65160

 

[muffinmojo]

Hello Again All

Cat, I can definitely empathize. There were a few things that struck me when listening to chant at Mass (on You Tube)…

1. It was in Latin. I think it’s hard enough to engage the senses fully at Mass for me when it’s in English; I can imagine it would be much more difficult for teens to focus and sing along.
2. The melody was unfamiliar to my Western ears. This makes it hard to simply pick up quickly.
3. It seems to have a rhythmic structure which is different than most (if not all) other Western music making this chant hard to follow.

It does not seem that chant would be the best kind liturgical music for our parish to employ, at this time anyway; and for the particular Mass in question.

You know your parish better than we do, but I strongly urge you not to be so quick to dismiss chant because it is different and strange. It is prescisely this that makes it so appropriate for the Mass, and one with teenagers in particular. The Mass is a strange event-that a perfect God could so humble Himself for us is a strange thing. Precisley because it is unique, it will help invigorate the youth. What else do people my age want than to be unique and become their own person? Who else can claim Gregorian Chant as a creation of their religion? Who else speaks to God in the way we can with Chant?

Cat, again…I can empathize. Reading all the posts on these forums it seems that a chant Mass would have no place for any of the instruments I play (drums and guitar) However, I can definitely see the liturgical justification for moving in the direction of chant at Mass. There is no question that our Holy Father wishes that Gregorian Chant be given “pride of place” in liturgical celebrations.

However, in my research I have yet to see a place where John Paul II or our current Pope Benedict XVI has explicitly forbidden the use of any other kind of music at Mass; other than Gregorian Chant. Maybe our Holy Father favors a gradual phasing out of all liturgical music which is not Gregorian Chant; in the Latin Rite ? Maybe he is only indicating his preference and that of the Holy See ? I’m not sure.

Thanks for your opinion and thoughts muffinmojo. I have a question for you about Gregorian Chant as Benedict XVI writes about it. Does he mean Gregorian Chant done in Latin only and with no harmony or is the Gregorian Chant “tent” bigger than this understanding? I may not have as much knowledge about this than you do, actually I probably don’t.

Please keep the posts coming and thank you all :tiphat:

Chant, techically, is in Latin with no harmony. However, when a priest sings the Mass in any language, it is called plainchant, another beautiful part of our identity. As I mentioned, there are some settings in English that use the style of chant. The “English Chant Mass” could be done a capella or with a quiet guitar accompaniment. What better way to introduce chant? Or, what better way to make the teen Mass unique than to give them their own style, of chant, that the other Masses lack?

There are some types of music that evolved from chant, such as polyphony which is chant with harmony and complex parts. Youtube “Palestrina sicut cervus” for the classic example of that style, which the pope mentions alongside chant.

 

[VociMike]

Thanks for your opinion and thoughts muffinmojo. I have a question for you about Gregorian Chant as Benedict XVI writes about it. Does he mean Gregorian Chant done in Latin only and with no harmony or is the Gregorian Chant “tent” bigger than this understanding? I may not have as much knowledge about this than you do, actually I probably don’t.

I can help a bit with this one. Gregorian chant, specifically, is in Latin. This is the song which is “proper to the Roman liturgy” and which is considered the supreme model and permanent standard for Catholic liturgical music. But the liturgy can be sung (chanted) in any language. A Mass chanted in English, to melodies that are not obviously secular, is very close to the ideal, and very much better, in that respect, than most of the music in most parishes on most Sundays.

It is a great failure of the English speaking Catholic world that, as Mass in the vernacular took hold, our pastors of souls did not push to have composed English chant Ordinaries and, especially, Propers. There are a few Ordinaries that have been written, but AFAIK to find chanted Propers one must borrow from the Anglicans (who first borrowed the idea from the Catholics beginning 500 years ago ). This failure to encourage the composition of English chant music is part of the general failure to live up to the desires of the Vatican II Fathers.

This also brings up the whole issue of vernacular sacred music. As I’m sure you know, a new translation of the English liturgy will be coming along soon, meaning that whatever musical settings of the Mass texts in English will need to be reworked. And the next translation will cause another rework, and so on, and so on. This is an unfortunate side effect of the sudden and complete switch to a vernacular liturgy. The Church had over 1000 years to get the Latin music settings (Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony) right, but has only a couple of generations for each new vernacular translation. I’m assuming here that, as modern languages are fluid by nature, this upcoming translation will not be the last.

 

[japhy]

It does not seem that chant would be the best kind liturgical music for our parish to employ, at this time anyway; and for the particular Mass in question.

I urge you not to make this decision about the type of music that would be “best” for a teen Mass without first talking with the teens and sharing this sacred heritage with them. They might surprise you. Or they might agree with you. But give them their voice.

Reading all the posts on these forums it seems that a chant Mass would have no place for any of the instruments I play (drums and guitar)

And it has no place for the bit of piano, hammered dulcimer, and clarinet I can play.

However, I can definitely see the liturgical justification for moving in the direction of chant at Mass. There is no question that our Holy Father wishes that Gregorian Chant be given “pride of place” in liturgical celebrations.

Amen!

However, in my research I have yet to see a place where John Paul II or our current Pope Benedict XVI has explicitly forbidden the use of any other kind of music at Mass…

To say something like that – at this time – would not be very pastoral. It would cause a lot of damage. So he is saying that Gregorian chant is proper to the Roman liturgy (in a way that other forms of music are not!) and that it should be given pride of place. In other words, you are making a conscious decision to push Gregorian chant out of its proper place when you opt for some other form of music. Seeing as how this has been happening in American parishes for a couple decades now, I think American Catholics have treated chant quite unfairly!

Does he mean Gregorian Chant done in Latin only and with no harmony or is the Gregorian Chant “tent” bigger than this understanding?

Gregorian chant (as others have mentioned already) is a single set of notes with Latin text. “Plainchant” is the same, but with any language. Polyphony (many-sounds) is based on chant (Latin or otherwise) that uses harmony and multiple voices. Here are two great examples of polyphony: one in English (“If ye love Me”, by Thomas Tallis), and one in Latin ("Jesu dulcis memoria, by Tomas Victoria; and another rendition here). Both of those are fit for liturgical use: the first is good for the celebration of the sacraments of Baptism or Confirmation, or Ascension Thursday or Pentecost Sunday (it’s Jesus giving the promise of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit) or maybe even Holy Thursday; whereas the second (which is about how sweet the memory, name, and presence of Jesus are) is good during the month of January, which is dedicated to the Holy Name of Jesus. Both could be used as Communion motets, sung by just the choir.

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!

 

[japhy]

I have to admit, I’m a skeptic. I’m sorry, I know that doesn’t set well in this thread. I really, truly do not believe that Americans will accept ancient music in Mass. I’m sorry, everyone, but I just can’t believe it.

Well… that’s a really defeatist attitude that, quite frankly, won’t help get anything done. We’ll end up further along the road to division, with each country having its own singing and music style, and visitors from other countries will feel alienated and we’ll need more and more culture-specific parishes (like a Polish parish, a Spanish parish, a German parish, etc.). That’s not what the Church wants! She wants to be UNIVERSAL.

I think that Americans have little or no concept of what corporate singing is. We do not sing together for fun.

There are still some vestiges of it. Baseball games, for one (“Take me out to the ballgame”). Many fraternities (and sororities) still have songs that they sing (although some might be more off-color than we’d like…).

Perhaps our general inability to do this has come about because of its recession from the liturgical sphere.

I think most people in the congregation will sit in stony silence. A few might attempt it, but when they hear how awful they sound, they will clam up and sit there like rocks.

I see that already where modern “hymns” are used. Lots of people just don’t sing at all. I don’t know why, to be honest, because I haven’t had the guts to, well, ask them. But when I don’t, it’s because I think the music is pretty atrocious (like nearly-heretical lyrics or a virtually unsingable tune).

I LIKE music with melodies. I dislike dissonance in music.

Chant is not dissonant by nature. (You want dissonant music, I can point you to a Responsorial Psalm used at a Papal Mass in Washington, DC!) Furthermore, the melody of chant is much deeper than other melodies. The recurrence of a particular set of notes, or the occurrence or frequency of a particular note, can convey a lot. Now, some of this will only be recognized by the choir or by a seasoned musician, but it’s there.

I could walk you (and others) through a couple pieces of chant I know that have that sort of theological and spiritual content stuffed into their very notes, if you’d like.

But I happen to know that our Catholic school just hired a new music teacher who is rumored to be “contemporary” in her approach to Catholic music.

It’s dangerous to sink your anchor into the topmost level of the ocean floor… if you know what I mean. It’s a bit ignorant (and maybe even disingenuous) to study the “moderns” without studying the “classics”. Especially since the Church has been pretty straightforward about sacred music being such an invaluable treasure. Why bury that treasure? Why ignore it? Why deprive others of it?

Can you imagine a math teacher who doesn’t do algebra because it’s just so old? Or calculus because some white male invented it? (Oh, yeah, wasn’t there that “new math” back in the 60’s that didn’t stick around too long…)

Or an English teacher who only taught neologisms and contemporary words (i.e. slang), and avoiding words which are very old or which came from (gasp!) other languages like Latin. A church “pastor” would need to be called something else, a college “campus” would need a new name, etc.

Or a history teacher who started with 1960. Or a geography teacher who only talked about recently-emerging countries, or neglected to talk about plate tectonics. Or a biology teacher who considers the Catholic monk Gregor Mandel’s work on genetics to be out of date and instead dives right into DNA (but nevermind those two white males who discovered it, they’re old fogies) and cloning.

It’s preposterous. This politically correct disease will only make us slaves to politics (rather than people who can shape politics). If we become historically correct, we will not be “slaves” to history (which we are cannot escape) but will stop trying to rewrite it; we’ll accept it, learn from it, and move on to shape the future.

They’ve forgotten how to sing together, as we are instructed to do in Ephesians 5:19. I see the same thing in the Catholic Church.

So it’s not an inevitable part of being an American Christian. It’s a deficiency we must overcome!

Please do me a favor: don’t get this or any other Liturgy & Sacraments thread locked or deleted!

 

[Sarabande]

It does not seem that chant would be the best kind liturgical music for our parish to employ, at this time anyway; and for the particular Mass in question.

Hi HealedOne. I didn’t mean for my last post regarding the “Graduale Simplex” and how it will be employed in my parish and the diocese to become a debate (it hasn’t yet), but I wanted to throw those things in there since you had mentioned that you wanted to eventually use a very old mass setting with Latin, etc. I guess I’m also just a product of my generation (25-35), so I’m just very optimistic and excited about all of this.

But you do know your parish best. I would suggest not to throw out the idea of using chants all together. As a number of parishes in my area have started doing, they begin gradually, with only using one or two chants for the mass parts. Once those chants are learned and sung by the congregation, they move onto one or two more. And the person in charge will know their parish and choristers best as to when to move on to a new chant. You can also do some chants in English. I’ve had to chant sequences in English at masses in my parish.

Once the flow is learned, it doesn’t become “unlearned”. And the entire mass doesn’t have to be all chants. There can be hymns and motets used. You don’t want to overwhelm a congregation who was not used to all of this, and good musicians know that there is a wealth of wonderful sacred and liturgical music that isn’t chant.

In my parish, we already do a Latin Novus Ordo mass, which we’ve been doing for years. It’s celebrated twice a month. Those who have been attending mass there know the Latin and the chants. Just this past weekend, I attended mass in my little farming parish in the middle of nowhere. The Franciscan friar who celebrated the mass up there led the little congregation in the simple chanted mass parts (the Missa Primativa). They chanted that loud and clear. The thing is, the previous pastor, who was bi-ritual (Latin Rite and Ukranian Rite) didn’t give up on them. Although the parish would not be considered “sophisticated” (which I think is a bunch of malarky), that pastor introduced the chants with enthusiasm and importance. The older ones remembered it and the younger ones learned it. No level of sophistication was needed.

Reading all the posts on these forums it seems that a chant Mass would have no place for any of the instruments I play (drums and guitar)

And it has no place for me to sing with a full-operatic voice (I am an opera singer) which is totally ok. The music doesn’t call for an operatic voice, so when I do chant, I sing more meditatively, a little more straight-toned.

However, I can definitely see the liturgical justification for moving in the direction of chant at Mass. There is no question that our Holy Father wishes that Gregorian Chant be given “pride of place” in liturgical celebrations.

Very true. I believe that is why our new Director of Worship is taking it in this direction. He spent 10 years in Rome before coming back to the States, so I think he is taking what he learned and experienced over there back here.

But please don’t become disheartened if things don’t pick up right away. It took me almost two years to get my children’s choir (age 6-14) to really learn the Latin chants well and to be able to sing it from memory. This was a parish where I was told when first taking the job that they couldn’t possibly learn chant when they had a hard enough time singing the regular hymns. Cat was right about that. This generation of children don’t know how to sing as easily. It takes a lot of dedications AND enthusiasm.

 

[Sarabande]

It will be very interesting to recall this discussion 20 years from now, if we are all alive, God willing.

Perhaps. Although, since various forms of chant has been used throughout the centuries prior to Christianity and is still alive not just in Christianity, but also in Judaism, Bhuddism, Hinduism, etc., I don’t think there will be much of a major discussion on it. It’ll just be part of the religious and spiritual experience along with our centuries of other sacred/liturgical music.

I have to admit, I’m a skeptic. I’m sorry, I know that doesn’t set well in this thread.

I really, truly do not believe that Americans will accept ancient music in Mass. I’m sorry, everyone, but I just can’t believe it.

I was truly sad for you when I read this. It sounded so beat down, so negative and so hopeless. I’m very sorry that you feel this way. At the same time, I can sort of see where you are coming from based on your religious background and the area where you live. Perhaps I’m more positive about this because of where I’m from and can see it be reintroduced in my parishes with more optimism than in some other areas of the country. I also had a mother who worked very hard at lifting me out of my brooding, serious, artistic self by always saying, “Never say never.” It was so annoying growing up and even now, but it’s so true. She lived it and she always came out on top no matter how beat down she got - especially being a minority and from another country.

I also believe that a negative or defeatist attitude brings about one’s “destruction” or the destruction of something one believes in. No one can be successful in reintroducing chant back into the parishes if the person in charge has a negative attitude about it. Just as negativity can be contagious, so can optimism. You need people with that “Never say never” outlook. I know many people who are like that and who are the ones in charge and can make a difference. That’s why I’m optimistic about it.

I think that Americans have little or no concept of what corporate singing is. We do not sing together for fun.

This is true in one regard. I grew up in a singing family. Filipinos, in general, love to sing. You can’t have a party without the karoke machine or the piano. haha!. But even on the caucasion side (German, Irish English), they are also big singers. None of them are musicians, although my dad played trumpet in high school and my brother taught himself on guitar.

But I do know that other families and cultures aren’t like that. Children don’t sing as much and I remember when I was teaching, many children listened to Rap, so they didn’t even know how to sing a simple melody. It took A LOT of work and youthful enthusiasm, (I was 24 when I taught them) but I can see where a person (older or younger) who might be jaded could not succeed in it. If I stayed in directing Church music, I probably would have become jaded, myself, dealing with pastors and people who know nothing about music and liturgical music. But THAT’s for another thread.

I think most people in the congregation will sit in stony silence. A few might attempt it, but when they hear how awful they sound, they will clam up and sit there like rocks.

And sadly, I think many will leave the Church because they long to hear music with melodies, which is what pleases American ears.

I think you may be underestimating people or are basing it on how you would feel. I honestly don’t believe people would leave the Church based on music alone. If that was the case, many people I know today would have left the Church long ago.

I LIKE music with melodies. I dislike dissonance in music.

Chant is a single melody line with no harmonies. There cannot be any dissonance in music without the making up of tones with specific intervals to make the music discordant or dissonant. So, I do not understand what you mean here.

I am the chair of a large classical music competition, and our high school vocal division is often cancelled. The voice teachers tell us that the students aren’t interested in learning classics. And since the teachers have to make a living, they teach what the students are willing to pay for.

hmmm… I can totally see how you feel disheartened. That is a real shame. It is absolutely the opposite where I live. Vocal competitions are extremely competitive, especially for the female voices in the high school and college divisions as well as for singers in the 20s and early 30s. People think it’s a small pond, but where I am from, it’s sometimes hard to get a 5-10 minute audition with days of auditions for just small companies or simple competitions for students.

I think the children will be most open to ancient music. So perhaps in 20 years, if the children are indoctrinated with chant and all the rest of the liturgical stuff, it might just make a come-back in the church.

I believe this as well.

So when exactly will the children learn “chant,” etc.?

It needs to be done during mass. And I don’t mean turning the entire mass into a chant mass. You have to start gradually and with enthusiasm and love of it. Enthusiasm and love is infectious. Little by little you work it into the mass, until you get to a point where it become part of the fabric of the parish and the mass. That’s how it is learned. If it can be done in schools which a teacher who is willing to lovingly introduce it to children, that’s great, but the mass is where to really start.

But if you get a bunch of naysayers running the music program, well, of course it won’t be a success. It’s like a parent continually telling their children that they won’t amount to much, consistently telling them that they have no brains, etc., to toughen them up and make them a success, and then are surprised that the children who weren’t strong enough to overcome the verbal abuse, end up being failures.

“Never say never.” Optimism, Enthusiasm and Love, as well as a bit of wisdom on how to introduce this to individual parishes will make it work. Negativity and an insincere attempt to make it happen will only set it up for failure. Anyway, that’s my belief on the matter.

 

[Phemie]

I’m not familiar with Gregorian Mass settings, having not heard one in 40 years. But my favorite English Mass setting is Somerville’s “New Good Shepherd Mass”.

 

[Phemie]

You won’t pick up chant quickly as you would a catchy song melody but when you do pick up a chant, it is “under your skin” for a long time so it’s worth the effort. I insisted we sing Veni Creator Spiritus this last Pentecost; elderly folks who swear they hadn’t sung it since primary school were able to do so. Also, when I learn a chant, rather than try to memorise a long sequence of this-note-then-that-note-then-this-other-note I get a feel for the intervals instead. I’ve had to teach a few people to sing the Exultet for the Easter Vigil and once they can recognise and sing three particular intervals they can “sight read” their way through it comfortably without having to slavishly memorise it. And once they’ve sung it two or three times, they’ve got it down pat anyway.

Having heard the OT “Thanksgiving for Light” that is included in the CBW III chanted at Evening Prayer a few times I found it relatively easy to learn how to sing it myself when I had to lead Evening Prayer in my parish.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not familiar with Gregorian Mass settings, having not heard one in 40 years. But my favorite English Mass setting is Somerville’s “New Good Shepherd Mass”.

Oooo… I don’t know that one. I’ll have to give it a look.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

However, as a teenager, I would definatly say that most of us find the guitar strumming…lame. Sorry to say it, but the 70’s style isn’t in anymore, and by modern secular music standards, the common liturgical music is silly. Gregorian chant is something different, unique, and ‘Catholic’ to the core. It will help give your teenagers an ‘identity’ that they would otherwise find in the secular world. I am positive that if you take time to explain and teach it, and don’t just jump right in, you will get an amazing response from your teenage parishoners with Chant.

I became a Catholic when I was seventeen in 1989, and even then, much of the liturgical music seemed outdated and reminiscent of the late 60’s folk music movement. I didn’t appreciate chant until later, when I began to learn more about the history of our faith and the fact that many chant melodies date to the earliest years of the Church. Later still, I learned about a certain “non profit” hymnal publisher and their desire for ever-increasing cash flow, but I won’t digress.

I love all of the Gregorian mass parts that I know, but for the English-language service music as is found in most contemporary hymnals, I’ll use the Heritage Mass (Alstott), the St. Benedict Mass (Collegeville Hymnal), Community Mass (Proulx), Deutsche Messe (based on Schubert’s “Heilig;” some versions of the Agnus Dei contain textual inaccuracies with the Latin original), Danish Amen Mass (Kraehenbuehl; dreary but correct). These are a few of the ones I prefer if I must use them.

For those that argue that chant is too difficult for the average person to learn, I’ve always said that if anyone can learn the tricky meters of “Gift of Finest Wheat” or “On Eagle’s Wings,” which most American Catholics are familiar with, they can sing anything. The difference between popular and beautiful is that true beauty stands the test of time, like Palastrina or Bach, while what is popular eventually goes the way of the Charleston and ragtime.

 

[Sarabande]

I love all of the Gregorian mass parts that I know, but for the English-language service music as is found in most contemporary hymnals, I’ll use the Heritage Mass (Alstott), the St. Benedict Mass (Collegeville Hymnal), Community Mass (Proulx), **Deutsche Messe (based on Schubert’s “Heilig;” **some versions of the Agnus Dei contain textual inaccuracies with the Latin original), Danish Amen Mass (Kraehenbuehl; dreary but correct). These are a few of the ones I prefer if I must use them.

Cavaille-Coll - Have you figured out a way to do the Agnus Dei for the Deutsche Messe using the accurate text? We used to do that mass at my parish (and it sounds absolutely beautiful when choir does it), but stopped because of the Agnus Dei text setting. One of the priests came up after a wedding once and almost burst a brain vessel regarding the text. He must have been having a bad day, because I actually really like him and highly respect him and he isn’t usually like that. (But I also don’t think he likes doing weddings either as he thinks for a lot of them the couples don’t understand the importance of the sacrament - so the inaccurate text could have just added to his irritation for the day.) After that, we tried working the accurate text into the music, but haven’t found a way that works without it sounding silly. It really is one of the lovelier music settings in English. I also like the original German. We have an a capella 4-part choral version on cd and it’s beautiful.

Thanks in advance.