Fear of death? How does one attempt to overcome this fear?

[Gloria1]

If you believe that the human person has no soul then you should be afraid of death because this life is all you have. However, being a Christian, I do believe that the human person has a soul in addition to the body.If you do believe that the human person has a soul then there is no reason why you shouldn’t believe in God. Only the Body dies but the soul lives on after death. The soul returns to the ‘giver of life’ (God) for judgment. The good soul is rewarded after death while the bad soul suffers eternally in hell.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

I think it’s human nature to want to hold on to those that are close to us. The devastation of losing a loved one is often overwhelming. I don’t think it matters your religious affiliation or not. And it can cause some of us to act perhaps even irrationally. So, as a fairly normal human, I don’t want my children to die, or my friends to be killed in wars, or even for my parents to die. Obviously, we’re all going to die sometime. But I’m in no rush. And in many cases it’s just a very emotional situation. A person who has been fighting for life for such a long term losing the battle. A mother that fears that her children will suffer the pains of loss without her. I don’t want to die anytime soon. I have little kids. I want to be here for them. Raise them. Protect them… I realize that my DH could take on the full responsibility. Or that our sisters would step in. But I don’t look forward to that at all. And I’ll admit, there are times I fear that I’ll suddenly die and my kids will have to endure. That they will suffer in any fashion bothers me.

---

I hear you there-My BIGGEST fear is that I will die before my son is grown. I know rationally my best friend will step in and take care of him, but-well, being a product of foster care…I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy…***

Now, if a person, and more specifically a Catholic is afraid to die, and you feel compelled to aid in lessening their fear, I think you ought to ask what they are afraid of.

Yes…that seems to be a sticking point. ESP the recent death we had…I do recall in rounds-the staff was asking-why are they so upset? -and I recall saying perhaps we’d need to try to understand the WHY of it, what are they afraid of? If we get to that point, perhaps the patient and the family would be at peace?

If they are afraid of hell, ask them if they’d like you to call a priest and have a last confession, and have their last rites. (which would be a good call pretty much no matter what).

As a matter of course, there’s always a chaplain of the person’s faith available…if they aren’t on staff (and just a FYI, there are priests and sisters/nuns on staff…they look at the demographics of the area, the religious makeup and hire accordingly-this area has a pretty heavy Catholic presence) they will ALWAYS get a person of the person’s faith to speak with them. That’s a given…

If they just feel anxiety do to the knowledge of their transition, perhaps just ask them to tell you about God, and what they expect heaven to be like. You don’t need to believe them to listen.

That’s an idea. That’s a very good idea. Mind, we (as respiratory therapists) work with patients pretty often who cannot communicate (they are on a vent) so that might not be an option all the time…but if they can speak, and they are lucid…that’s a super idea…

You can just hold a hand. Acknowledge that you don’t have the answers, but that you will stay with them in those final moments. (if possible) I suspect it’s the loneliness that could happen during this transition that makes it scary.

---

We try to…sometimes we cannot. I do confess…even as a health care professional, it scares me. Don’t know why. But, yeah, we do sometimes try to stay with the person who is dying (if there is no one else there). It’s hard…and-well-sometimes so sad…and yeah, sometimes we try to deflect the pain by doing or saying things that the general public wouldn’t understand…***

From a personal perspective. I’ve had several experiences with death that have shown me things that I just can’t ignore. Although I don’t want to die anytime soon. I’m not afraid of where I’m headed. And in the meantime, I’ll keep preparing myself for such a journey.

So that you can relate to the Christian patient better, you might consider reading some books that talk of NEAR death experiences. What people saw, learned etc. Perhaps the most uplifting of the stories can help you offer some compassionate words to those in there final hours. 90 Minutes in Heaven is a FAST read, and a good one.

---

I’ve read a lot of books about NDE’s. ALL very amazing…I do confess, I can’t help but think there must be something…but what that something IS, I don’t know…is it our mind firing its last neurons? Hum.
I’ve read the book 90 minutes in heaven…yeah, it was a fast read… and interesting…and I gave it to a Christian co-worker after I was done. ***

You may not believe in God, But I do. I suspect you will receive special graces for considering the human spirit, and wanting to and trying your best to offer comfort.

 

[tonyrey]

*** WHAT DO you all do when you reach your heaven anyhow…

---

mind, only a select few are going to make it there,

 

[phoenixrrt62]

If you believe that the human person has no soul then you should be afraid of death because this life is all you have.

***Well, yeah. I do think-well, if there is no creator, no supreme being, then-yeah, I think-it’s pretty disturbing to realize that, yep, this IS it. However, realizing that this life IS all we have, wouldn’t this compel you to make the best of you what you have at present?
Now, see…I am of two minds about this. I don’t know if there IS anything else. I would love to believe that there is…but…

---

However, being a Christian, I do believe that the human person has a soul in addition to the body.

I-well, I do think there might be something-a soul-beyond the physical…I’m not sure…

If you do believe that the human person has a soul then there is no reason why you shouldn’t believe in God.

Why does there have to be a supreme being to have a soul present? Hum. What if the soul is just another form of energy? I don’t know…just putting that out there. Thinking out loud. Trying to rationalize my (non) belief…

Only the Body dies but the soul lives on after death. The soul returns to the ‘giver of life’ (God) for judgment. The good soul is rewarded after death while the bad soul suffers eternally in hell.

***Now, see…I would think IF a soul exists beyond the physical body, it would go-hum-to another dimension that mirrors what it knows? A construct of what it believes to be so?
-so, if you think that you are going to see God and be judged, that’s what will happen to you?-or, if you think you are going to see Allah and be rewarded with-well, what a good, devout Muslim thinks they will have…or see nirvana like a Buddhist believes? Don’t know. ***

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Quote:mind, only a select few are going to make it there,
How do you know that?
Isn’t that what your religion teaches you?

Quote:SO-then what? Eternal adoration? More life lessons? Another plane of life akin to this one? What?
I recall when I was a kid…I thought-man, so when I die, I’m gonna float around on a cloud and play a harp all day? How BORING!
**
You’ve obviously never been deeply in love, never appreciated breath-taking beauty, never been passionately interested in others, never enjoyed creating things, never looked forward to living forever. **

---

Mind…the frame of mind I was as a child (about 8-10?) was-well, just floating on a cloud…eek! I want to DO SOMETHING!!! How’s floating on a cloud fun?***

---

Well, sure, I’ve been in love…well, hope so, anyhow I know I’m a cold fish, but, I think one of the most awe inspiring things ever was when my son was born…yes, amazing. I have loved, and loved so much it physically hurt, and moved me to tears…sure. As I am quite sure everyone can relate to.

I admire beauty every day…sometimes I see beauty in the oddest of places-looking out of the bus traveling through the grittiest of neighborhoods…and seeing a moving mural on a wall, and the rising sun slanting over the buildings JUST SO as to make the gritty a unusual kind of serene and beautiful…and sometimes I see something that is quite moving…when you least expect it…seeing a child’s sheer joy playing in leaves in the park, the joy of a mom and child looking out the window of a bus pointing out the scenery as they travel to a Phillies game…an elderly couple strolling Rittenhouse Square, hand in hand, the love and contentment they share for one another…of course I see that. Who doesn’t?

I-well, yes, I am interested in others, sure I am. To work in the field we work in, I think you pretty much have to have some compassion for others…if not…eek. ***

If we are bored it is not the fault of reality but of our own lack of imagination…

---

Well, yeah. I am a pretty unimaginative person…but, as I mentioned above, the rational was that I couldn’t imagine floating around not doing anything

Now, mind…I think this life, nature is amazing, just amazing. Why do you have to have a God to make this possible? And, while I do hope there is life beyond this one…I do fear it just ain’t so…***

 

[PJM]

=phoenixrrt62;7235189]I am here at work…well, killing time and thinking…and looking all over your site…to see what people, religious people in particular, think about death.

Of course, it’s something we can’t escape…we will all face it-some sooner than later. I recall one of my greatest fears when I started to realize that there was no omnipresent being that guided our destiny…was-well…this life is all we have. That’s it. That’s all.
What a sobering thought.

The type of job I have lends me to witness death…well, more than I desire, for sure…and-some people are so afraid to face it…they would rather see a loved one suffer-suffer terribly because of that fear…the fear of the unknown…of what lies beyond.
Now, me…I don’t know quite what to think. I tend to think that when we die…well, that’s all…but I do wonder. I wonder if our soul lives on. I don’t know.

However…what do you say to someone who is religious, is looking death in the face, and is afraid? What do you say? What do you do? I’d venture to say that I would be pretty cruel if I were to tell someone who is religious that I thought there was nothing.

Hum. What do you all think? IS there something else?

It seems to me to be quite logical to FEAR death if one does believe it God, nd therefore an afterlife. And it’s only an “unknown” if you don’t know God.

Let me ask you a question friend:

Share with me where your “freewill” orginates and then quantify it for me. Size, color, shape, weight.

A friend,
Pat

 

[faithfully]

---

However…if people were less focused on what lies BEYOND and work on fulfilling what they need to do in the HERE and NOW, don’t you think the world would be a better place in some respects? Just a thought. ***

Actually, I would say you have it exactly backwards. If EVERYONE focused on what lies beyond, they would be doing what they need to here and now to get there… and this world would in fact be a better place. At least within the Catholic teachings, there is NOTHING you should do to get to heaven that would cause pain or misery for another. And if EVERYONE focused on that and executed that, there would be no war, no abuse, no murder, no stealing, the poor if they existed would be gleefully fed… But rather, I see that so many are focused on the here and now. What have I got now. How can I get more. Never mind the person next to me. Think of the really awful people in the world, even those that claim to be religious in some fashion. Do you think they are focused on getting into heaven? Or getting what they want in the here and now?

***Well, yeah…I can get that.

You know…off on a bit of a tangent. WHAT DO you all do when you reach your heaven anyhow…mind, only a select few are going to make it there, yeah? SO-then what? Eternal adoration? More life lessons? Another plane of life akin to this one? What?

I recall when I was a kid…I thought-man, so when I die, I’m gonna float around on a cloud and play a harp all day? How BORING!

Just food for thought…***

LOL! I guess I imagine heaven to be infinately better and more exciting than here. But no pain, no loss, no suffering. In the way that I can love the ocean and the beach, and play there, I imagine having a deeper feeling, MORE fun… And I totally plan on making it! As I’ve said, I’ve had experiences that lead me to believe this, I know and trust certain people to have had similar experiences… to KNOW this.

But I don’t have a sense of what I’ll be doing… but I know I’ll think it’s amazing.

 

[The_Exodus]

Hum. What do you all think? IS there something else?

Everyone I think ought to be humble when thinking about death. And Catholics, though they can and ought to have the utmost confidence and faith in the mercy of God, nevertheless are not guaranteed with the faith of revelation that they are automatically going to heaven.

As a believer, I think about death sometimes with fear and trembling, for I know, the only way I’ll be saved from Hell is through the grace and mercy of God. As an unbeliever, I don’t know what to say to you. My faith compels me to say that, whatever death is, it is not a “sleep” to anyone, whether saved or lost. What does Christ say? “Except ye believe in me, ye shall die in your sins.” That is not a believer telling you to repent, but those are the words of a man named Jesus Christ. Each person who has heard him must come to grips with what he says.

Consider Hamlet. What does he say?

To die, to sleep–
To sleep–perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.

Must give us pause indeed…

 

[phoenixrrt62]

It seems to me to be quite logical to FEAR death if one does believe it God, and therefore an afterlife. And it’s only an “unknown” if you don’t know God.

Well, I’d think you’d fear it either way, pretty much…

Let me ask you a question friend:

Share with me where your “freewill” originates and then quantify it for me. Size, color, shape, weight.

---

I really don’t quite understand what you are asking…I’m pretty dense most of the time.
Are you asking where my viewpoint on life, death, and a god/or lack of same originates?

Please don’t misunderstand. I’m not trying to be obnoxious. I really*** don’t know how to answer your question.

A friend,
Pat

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Actually, I would say you have it exactly backwards. If EVERYONE focused on what lies beyond, they would be doing what they need to here and now to get there… and this world would in fact be a better place.
But…why would you have to look to a focus on what lies beyond? Why not do it now, for your fellow man, in this life?
At least within the Catholic teachings, there is NOTHING you should do to get to heaven that would cause pain or misery for another. And if EVERYONE focused on that and executed that, there would be no war, no abuse, no murder, no stealing, the poor if they existed would be gleefully fed…
Again…why do so many look for gain, in this world or the next? Why not do good simply because it’s the right thing to do? Treat others as you would be treated? Why do you have to have a reward at all??

But rather, I see that so many are focused on the here and now. What have I got now. How can I get more. Never mind the person next to me. Think of the really awful people in the world, even those that claim to be religious in some fashion. Do you think they are focused on getting into heaven? Or getting what they want in the here and now?

Well, yeah. That is what I mean. And yes, it’s selfish…and I am guilty of being selfish, I’m no saint, far from it…but…I can’t imagine taking glee in doing this as a matter of course…getting ‘mine’ no matter who I harm. That is nothing short of evil, in my book.
And…again…why the necessary focus on doing this to ‘store riches in heaven?’

LOL! I guess I imagine heaven to be infinitely better and more exciting than here. But no pain, no loss, no suffering. In the way that I can love the ocean and the beach, and play there, I imagine having a deeper feeling, MORE fun… And I totally plan on making it! As I’ve said, I’ve had experiences that lead me to believe this, I know and trust certain people to have had similar experiences… to KNOW this.

But I don’t have a sense of what I’ll be doing… but I know I’ll think it’s amazing.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

Everyone I think ought to be humble when thinking about death. And Catholics, though they can and ought to have the utmost confidence and faith in the mercy of God, nevertheless are not guaranteed with the faith of revelation that they are automatically going to heaven.
I would imagine** no one** is guaranteed a spot in heaven

As a believer, I think about death sometimes with fear and trembling, for I know, the only way I’ll be saved from Hell is through the grace and mercy of God. As an unbeliever, I don’t know what to say to you. My faith compels me to say that, whatever death is, it is not a “sleep” to anyone, whether saved or lost. What does Christ say? “Except ye believe in me, ye shall die in your sins.” That is not a believer telling you to repent, but those are the words of a man named Jesus Christ. Each person who has heard him must come to grips with what he says.

Consider Hamlet. What does he say?

To die, to sleep–
To sleep–perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
Must give us pause indeed…

Hum. You have a point. But. If you exist no more-it’s LIKE a eternal sleep. But…you don’t exist. So, a non-existent entity can’t suffer…

 

[tonyrey]

Only a select few are going to make it there

,How do you know that?
Isn’t that what your religion teaches you?

God is infinitely loving and wants all His children to be in heaven.

You’ve obviously never been deeply in love, never appreciated breath-taking beauty, never been passionately interested in others, never enjoyed creating things, never looked forward to living forever.

Mind…the frame of mind I was as a child (about 8-10?) was-well, just floating on a cloud…eek! I want to DO SOMETHING!!! How’s floating on a cloud fun?
*
Well, sure, I’ve been in love…well, hope so, anyhow I know I’m a cold fish, but, I think one of the most awe inspiring things ever was when my son was born…yes, amazing. I have loved, and loved so much it physically hurt, and moved me to tears…sure. As I am quite sure everyone can relate to.*

Do you want that love to come to an end?

I admire beauty every day…sometimes I see beauty in the oddest of places-looking out of the bus traveling through the grittiest of neighborhoods…and seeing a moving mural on a wall, and the rising sun slanting over the buildings JUST SO as to make the gritty a unusual kind of serene and beautiful…and sometimes I see something that is quite moving…when you least expect it…seeing a child’s sheer joy playing in leaves in the park, the joy of a mom and child looking out the window of a bus pointing out the scenery as they travel to a Phillies game…an elderly couple strolling Rittenhouse Square, hand in hand, the love and contentment they share for one another…of course I see that. Who doesn’t?

Do you think there is a limit to the beauty that can be created and enjoyed?

*I-well, yes, I am interested in others, sure I am. To work in the field we work in, I think you pretty much have to have some compassion for others…if not…eek. *

Can you imagine yourself never having compassion for others?

If we are bored it is not the fault of reality but of our own lack of imagination…

Well, yeah. I am a pretty unimaginative person…but, as I mentioned above, the rational was that I couldn’t imagine floating around not doing anything*

There is no need to imagine heaven is static. God is creative and we are made in His image. Our mind is far more active than our body and our view of the world counts far more than the world itself. The real world is within…

*Now, mind…I think this life, nature is amazing, just amazing. Why do you have to have a God to make this possible? *

Because the wisdom and power needed to design and create this immense and beautiful system are beyond our comprehension.

And, while I do hope there is life beyond this one…I do fear it just ain’t so…

In other words you think it is too good to be true! But why should the truth be harsh and cruel? It is always easier to be negative than positive - just as it is easier to destroy than create. It imposes no challenge or obligations on us. Nothing really matters if everything leads to nothing! But to believe in, and hope for, life after death makes us more responsible for ourselves and others because the consequences of the way we live now will last forever…

Would you prefer never to have been born? Of course not! That is a sign we’re not here by chance. The incalculable value of life is evidence that it is not an accident but the prelude to an afterlife in which all tears are wiped away. There could be no greater crime than giving us the capacity for love and a yearning for perfection only to condemning all of us to eternal oblivion. Why bother to create us in the first place?

 

[faithfully]

phoenixrrt62:
Because eternity is a VERY LONG TIME… and quite frankly, I don’t see how doing what is right in this life because it’s what get’s you to heaven is wrong. Because in the end doing what is right is what we believe in in the first place. But I get your point… I think. It’s like a big company that does good because they want to. And one that does good because they have to. I think the GOOD Catholic (not that that can be perfectly defined) does good because they want to, AND because they have to. And then of course, we’re all free to do just that. Free will is important in this discussion.

It may be hard, and we all make mistakes. But the goal is that we are actually striving for a greater good.

There’s a joke: God what is a minute like to you. His reply: A million years to you. What is a penny to you? His reply: A million dollars to you. Can I have a penny? His reply: In a minute. We’re really only here for “just a minute”

Why do we study hard in elementary school? To do well in middle school and high school. Why do we study hard in high school? To get into a good college. Why even bother going to college or trade school. To become a good respiratory therapist?(now it may not have been your dream job… but what if it is?) Why not just have a good time and do ok in high school, and nevermind further goals? Probably because life goes beyond highschool and we need to be prepared. Because unfortunately, life isn’t pep ralleys and football games.

Life is our education and internship. Every aspect of life is a classroom. We do well in some courses and not in others. Sometimes we have to repeat. But most of us are looking to graduate, and hopefully make it into Grad school. Basically, we’re going to graduate with enough credentials we make it to heaven.

Short of the professional student that doesn’t contribute to anything… we don’t ask why a person tries to better themselves here on earth. And if life ends in a pile of ashes then it would make sense to ONLY care about how we perform here. But life, does not end here on earth. Just the physical human component… We need to be prepared to meet our maker, and sit there while we have our life of classes and “grades” audited. Then we learn if we have to do anything else “purgatory” to make the final cut.

And see, as you know in this life. Sometimes we screw up in those lower level education tracks. Some end up with GED instead of a regular hs diploma. Others drink their way through college… But they still figure out how to improve themselves… God allows for that too. Late bloomers so to speak.

Enjoying this conversation…

 

[po18guy]

***First, I do want to say that I am so sorry about your illness, and I am so glad that you are at peace with what is to come. I admire that…a lot of people we treat…they don’t have that peace, and it is so sad…all they have is questions and fear. Mind, not all people are fearful. We do have people and families who have the peace you have…***The Christian world view teaches that we have hope for an eternal future, as well as joy in this life - no matter how heavy our cross is to bear. Christianity is not an either/or faith. It does not teach a zero sum game. It is a both/and faith with limitless possibilities both in this life and the next. Even through suffering - especially through suffering, we can provide hope for others, and help those who need it as long as we are able. This is a reflection of the hope which our Lord gave us on the cross. It is the hope that He gave to the repentant thief, even while both were dying. Man and this world simply have nothing of the sort to offer.

I do understand why you or anyone…ME, for that matter…would really need, want, HOPE that there is something beyond this life…and I still wonder if there might be something else…but-well…

The human heart is created for hope. There either is hope for something beyond this life, or every God-fearing man, woman and child in human history has been delusional. But, we do not make ourselves available to this hope until we make ourselves vulnerable. When we go outside of ourselves, outside of our beliefs, doubts and fears. Only then are we provided with the hope that you see in these forums - that is why you are here. Hope. This world beats it out of you. But, as Christians, we take heart, because our Lord has overcome this world.

*** Yeah. The idea that nothing lies beyond…scares me sometimes, but-like another poster mentioned, I suppose it would be something you’d just not be aware of, because…well, that’s it.***

Nothingness lying beyond life renders an emptiness within life. Certainly we can do good in this life, help others, comfort them. But, it is like tending flowers the day before the frost if nothing lies beyond. As a flower, life is a perennial rather than an annual.

*** Kind of like when I had surgery. Yeah, I got knocked out, put on a vent, they did the surgery, and I woke up afterward and didn’t recall a blessed thing. (Versed is something else).***

Someone first gave you life, then has sustained it, without you noticing in many cases. Your parents did not give you life - they simply participated in the life-giving process. Someone else was the miracle worker.

*** However…if people were less focused on what lies BEYOND and work on fulfilling what they need to do in the HERE and NOW, don’t you think the world would be a better place in some respects? Just a thought.***

The world is such a mess precisely because so many do not, or cannot look beyond this life. Mother Teresa looked far beyond this life, and knelt in the filth of dying souls for decades, to provide them with even the slightest comfort, and hope. If there is nothing beyond this life, then we are accomplishing the equivalent of saving earthworms from puddles when we show compassion to another human. Life has more meaning than this world can ever reveal by itself.

*** I am not criticizing you, not saying you are wrong, I am just…well…wondering, thinking out loud. I really want to explore this…I suppose because it disturbs me and a lot of my fellow co-workers. It’s really hard to see people you treat, develop a relationship with…and see the progression of their disease process…and the death that follows…it’s just really hard. ***

I see this in my fellow cancer patients, as well as in my doctor and the nurses. There is a hesitance to bond with those who are often in the dying process. Cancer became an absolute blessing, in that it caused many others to examine their lives and perhaps offer a prayer for me. It was actually they who benefitted from the prayer in many cases, and that is exactly how I would have it.

There is so much more to life, both temporal (which you are questioning), as well as eternal. Notice that we consist of both body and spirit. When we die, the spirit leaves the body - it does not die with it. If you have been with patients at the moment of death, you have probably wondered at this yourself. The body is dependent upon the spirit for life, but not vice versa. The spirit, once created, is eternal and requires no body for its existence.

Yes, you have many things to ponder. Answers come when you break out of the box and make yourself vulnerable.

My rare and incurable cancer (PTCL-NOS), after producing 54 tumors and invading my bone marrow, has now been in remission for a year and a half. But, that’s another story.

 

[AntiTheist]

I recall one of my greatest fears when I started to realize that there was no omnipresent being that guided our destiny…was-well…this life is all we have. That’s it. That’s all.
What a sobering thought.

I never really found it all that “sobering,” if only because I had accepted pretty early on that impermanence is the name of the game here.

If you think about it, nothing lasts forever. Even the “big things” that seem to last forever in comparison to our lives – the sun, the stars, the planets, etc. – are all going to burn out and dissolve eventually.

Impermanence is the nature of things. The only reason that it bugs us is that we have these little narratives in our heads where we want to live on forever. Now, there’s nothing wrong with wanting that, but if we feel that life is worthless just because it doesn’t last forever and ever and ever…that’s a little like a child on the playground feeling like play time is worthless just because it doesn’t last forever and ever and ever…

I tend to think that when we die…well, that’s all…but I do wonder. I wonder if our soul lives on. I don’t know.

Well, no one’s come back to tell us, but from everything we know, consciousness and personality are intricately linked to brain chemistry. It would seem that when the brain stops working, consciousness ends also.

However…what do you say to someone who is religious, is looking death in the face, and is afraid? What do you say? What do you do? I’d venture to say that I would be pretty cruel if I were to tell someone who is religious that I thought there was nothing.

It depends on the situation, of course. Usually, the best course of action is the most honest: tell the person, “I don’t know what happens when you die, but I’m here for you while you’re going through the process of dying. I’m here for you. I care.”

The other approach is to humor them. They’re dying anyway, so it can’t really do any harm to reinforce their afterlife fantasies at this point.

There’s this old idea, supposedly ascribed to the Buddha: if a house were on fire, and a child were trapped inside and had to jump through some flames to make it out of the house, you might lie to him and say, “Your favorite toy is waiting for you on the other side of the fire! Just jump! It’ll be okay!” Similarly, when someone is dying, you might lie to him and say, “A beautiful afterlife is waiting for you!” Sometimes, in some situations, people need a lie to help them jump.

IS there something else?

Where do we go when we die? Where does my fist go when I open my hand?

 

[fhansen]

***Well, yeah…I can get that.

You know…off on a bit of a tangent. WHAT DO you all do when you reach your heaven anyhow…mind, only a select few are going to make it there, yeah? SO-then what? Eternal adoration? More life lessons? Another plane of life akin to this one? What?

I recall when I was a kid…I thought-man, so when I die, I’m gonna float around on a cloud and play a harp all day? How BORING!

Just food for thought…***

Yeah, it’s food for thought that most of us have outgrown if we’re still believers-the cloud stuff anyway. When someone responds in faith-just the smallest amount (something I didn’t do as a youth; I left the Church for years) to these ideas about God that we’re told about by the Church, then something awesome happens; we’re rewarded with increased faith, which then further convinces us of the truth of the proposed ideas. This is a gift, as the Church also explains, and God can continue to lead you in this way until He may well give you an idea what heaven will be like-and “boring” becomes definitively ruled out an operative term. It cannot be conveyed to another because we’re talking about a supernatural gift-an experience of supernaturally endowed happiness-something we’re geared to look for but something which is ultimately unattainable in this world. As 1Cor 2:9 says:

**What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him— **

 

[faithfully]

Well, no one’s come back to tell us, but from everything we know, consciousness and personality are intricately linked to brain chemistry. It would seem that when the brain stops working, consciousness ends also.

You have chosen to ignore that someone…Oh… what was his name? Oh yeah, CHRIST rose again… from the dead… And many have come back in modern day world. But yes, I realize the need to discount their experience as well. Everyone that saw it “wanted” to see it. Or was hallucinating, or something other than actually seeing this. To allow the slightest space for it, places the entire “there is no God” fantasy in question.

And I realize it’s old information, that you can’t “prove.”. However we still can’t figure out how the pyramids were built in a time without today’s technology… So, clearly they don’t and could not possibly exist… Yet, they are there. And so we know, that SOMEHOW they were built. Could you believe in them if you had only seen a drawing with measurements, and told they were once there? But lost to the elements, and war for example?

“There’s this old idea, supposedly ascribed to the Buddha: if a house were on fire, and a child were trapped inside and had to jump through some flames to make it out of the house, you might lie to him and say, “Your favorite toy is waiting for you on the other side of the fire! Just jump! It’ll be okay!” Similarly, when someone is dying, you might lie to him and say, “A beautiful afterlife is waiting for you!” Sometimes, in some situations, people need a lie to help them jump.”

You might… Or you might say, the only way we’re getting out of this is to run for it!

I don’t know, I think it’s like when my kids are flipping out in the car or in Target…" Hey, You need to stop that right now… and I know you did something really bad, and I’ll come up with a punishment later… Try not to worry about it". Often they hush up, and sometimes they just totally forget about it. But that doesn’t mean there won’t be time to serve when they get home…

I personally wouldn’t condensend to a dieing person. If you can’t accept that their belief structure has any possability just tell them you don’t know what’s there. That you hope it’s all that others say it’s cracked up to be. You’re confident they won’t be in any pain. That their life on earth had meaning. Remain calm with them.

If they are panicking I’d get them the preist or preacher of their denomination. You’re in over your head. Just like you’d call for the Dr. when the patient needs more care than you’re qualified to give.

You could also pick up a book like “A case for Christ”, or “Know why you believe”… and then be able to say, “I don’t know all the answers… But here’s something I read that might help you…” You don’t have to believe what you tell them you read…and you don’t have to “lie” and make up some story to appease them…

 

[phoenixrrt62]

God is infinitely loving and wants all His children to be in heaven.

If there were a God, I would hope that he would want the best for all his children…

Do you want that love to come to an end?Do you think there is a limit to the beauty that can be created and enjoyed?
Well, if there is nothing beyond this life, I suppose it will come to a screeching halt, whether I want it to or not…wishing or believing in a life beyond this one doesn’t automatically make it so, however I desire it…and I do. Who wouldn’t?
Can you imagine yourself never having compassion for others?
I’m a bit confused as to what you are inferring. SO, If I don’t believe that a life exists beyond this one, I can’t have compassion? I’m confused. I don’t quite get what you mean by that remark…
There is no need to imagine heaven is static. God is creative and we are made in His image. Our mind is far more active than our body and our view of the world counts far more than the world itself. The real world is within…Because the wisdom and power needed to design and create this immense and beautiful system are beyond our comprehension.
Makes sense, in a way…but-I question the actual existence of a heaven…perhaps my description as an atheist my be misleading. I am searching, but all I seem to come up is with the belief that there IS NO God, or gods, whatever. I was a believer, once, a devout believer. I started really challenging the belief system of Christianity and Catholicism in particular when I was a young adult…
In other words you think it is too good to be true!
Yes-I do…sorry…but…yep.

But why should the truth be harsh and cruel?
I don’t think it has to be…well, it just IS, is all. We might not like it, but there it is…
It is always easier to be negative than positive - just as it is easier to destroy than create. It imposes no challenge or obligations on us. Nothing really matters if everything leads to nothing!
But…see, why does there HAVE to be something beyond this life to make it worthwhile? Why can’t you enjoy this life on its own terms? WHY does nothing matter if there’s no afterlife??

But to believe in, and hope for, life after death makes us more responsible for ourselves and others because the consequences of the way we live now will last forever…
Now, see…what worries me to an extent is that in some respects, we are NOT responsible for ourselves and this planet, simply because of a belief that there is something ‘else’ and there is a perfect world waiting for us…if we only have faith in a man called Jesus. So, we can can deplete the resourses of the planet with abandon, we can justify actions that cause harm to the earth and its fellow man…all in the name of religion.
Look at the recent spate of suicide bombers, for example…they are fed the nonsense that Allah will reward them in paradise for killing the infidels…how sad…

Would you prefer never to have been born? Of course not! That is a sign we’re not here by chance.
Then again, perhaps we ARE. We are but a speck in the vast universe…
The incalculable value of life is evidence (evidence? Where?) that it is not an accident but the prelude to an afterlife in which all tears are wiped away. There could be no greater crime than giving us the capacity for love and a yearning for perfection only to condemning all of us to eternal oblivion. Why bother to create us in the first place?

Well, again…it’s just nature. We are mammals. My mother and father got together, created me-and, well, here I am.
Granted, some people might have made a conscious effort to create another being, and saw it as a sacred act, others (ahem-like my bio-parents) didn’t. In fact, if abortion had been legal in 1961, I would not be here

 

[phoenixrrt62]

I never really found it all that “sobering,” if only because I had accepted pretty early on that impermanence is the name of the game here.

You didn’t? I did, scared the **** out of me, still does, in a general sense…I suppose it’s pretty much human nature to want life to not end…scary thought to think that you will cease to exist somewhere along the line…could be tomorrow, could be 20 years from now…

If you think about it, nothing lasts forever. Even the “big things” that seem to last forever in comparison to our lives – the sun, the stars, the planets, etc. – are all going to burn out and dissolve eventually.
Well, yes. However, there’s another way to look at it…just throwing this out there, because I do wonder of there IS another life beyond, and we have a soul that transcends death…things never really cease to exist, but they take on another form, etc. You know…the body returns to the carbon atoms that they were once upon a time…and cease to function as a human body. Am I making sense? Perhaps not…

Impermanence is the nature of things. The only reason that it bugs us is that we have these little narratives in our heads where we want to live on forever. Now, there’s nothing wrong with wanting that, but if we feel that life is worthless just because it doesn’t last forever and ever and ever…that’s a little like a child on the playground feeling like play time is worthless just because it doesn’t last forever and ever and ever…
Well, yes…I am disturbed by the thought that life is worthless IF there is nothing beyond. Why does that have to be so?

Well, no one’s come back to tell us, but from everything we know, consciousness and personality are intricately linked to brain chemistry. It would seem that when the brain stops working, consciousness ends also.
Yes…
However. How you explain away all the ghost sightings? How do you explain away the NDE’s? Are all these people off their rockers? I kind of doubt it. There’s that. I can’t toss that out…I have to consider it. You know? Have you ever wondered about that? Just curious…

It depends on the situation, of course. Usually, the best course of action is the most honest: tell the person, “I don’t know what happens when you die, but I’m here for you while you’re going through the process of dying. I’m here for you. I care.”
True. I could do that. In fact, I have done that.

The other approach is to humor them. They’re dying anyway, so it can’t really do any harm to reinforce their afterlife fantasies at this point.
Now…I don’t think I could do that. I could ask them to relay what they believe, and go from there…but I really would hesitate just humoring someone when it comes to something so profound (for them) Thank goodness for the chaplains on staff;0D

There’s this old idea, supposedly ascribed to the Buddha: if a house were on fire, and a child were trapped inside and had to jump through some flames to make it out of the house, you might lie to him and say, “Your favorite toy is waiting for you on the other side of the fire! Just jump! It’ll be okay!” Similarly, when someone is dying, you might lie to him and say, “A beautiful afterlife is waiting for you!” Sometimes, in some situations, people need a lie to help them jump.
Again…don’t think I could do that…and thank goodness for the chaplains…

Where do we go when we die? Where does my fist go when I open my hand?

-well…yes.
But. (and yeah, always a ‘but’) I’ve sensed things and seen things that make me wonder. I-well, I just don’t know. I may SEE nothing…but-see, there is that nagging thought that makes me wonder…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

phoenix

However…what do you say to someone who is religious, is looking death in the face, and is afraid? What do you say? What do you do? I’d venture to say that I would be pretty cruel if I were to tell someone who is religious that I thought there was nothing.

A religious person who is afraid of death is more likely afraid of the unknown than of death itself, whereas the atheist should really be afraid of death, because that’s the end.

All Christians know they are going to be judged, and no Christian knows how he will be judged … worthy or unworthy. That is the great fear of death. As an atheist, it would certainly not be your business to comfort the dying person by assuring him that he will not even be judged. If you are in a position to comfort him at all, I should think you could simply do everything you can to encourage a dying patient to believe that if he has true remorse for any wrongdoing, what does he have to fear? Even an atheist could comfort himself with that thought at the hour of his own death.

I have been active in the prison ministry for several years, and I know that a dying prisoner does not need around him anyone who signals that he doubts the existence of God. That is hardly a note of comfort. So your instinct not to tell a dying person you think there is nothing beyond is right on.