Fed gov't mandate for insurance to cover contraceptives, or, Most Catholics in USA using contraceptives: Which threatens or harms the Church the most?

[Bartolome_Casas]

Which?

The former happened just in the last couple weeks.

The latter has been happening for about 40 years now.

 

[Safia]

The first, most definitely. The use of contraceptives among Catholics is going to send a bunch of souls to Purgatory, probably – but it’ll never shake the Church’s stance on the issue. The Church might lose souls, but it’ll stand strong, always, in defending the right to life, unless damning mandates like Obama’s get in the way of its religious liberty.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

The first, most definitely. The use of contraceptives among Catholics is going to send a bunch of souls to Purgatory, probably – but it’ll never shake the Church’s stance on the issue. The Church might lose souls, but it’ll stand strong, always, in defending the right to life, unless damning mandates like Obama’s get in the way of its religious liberty.

Why condemn President Obama, who isn’t a Catholic and so can’t be expected to follow Church teaching, and not condemn the bulk of Catholics who don’t follow Church teachings but have an knowledge of the teaching’s rational and purpose and have an obligation to follow it?

What good is it to have pure and holy teachings in a book on a shelf in the bishop’s office if practically no one is following the teaching? Do words in a book on a shelf make the Church holy?

Isn’t the Obama Administration just looking at statistics showing that most Catholics want contraceptives to be covered by insurance plans? Whose faults is that, then?

Aren’t some people who don’t even support the Catholic Church’s ban on contraception just using this issue to intensify the opposition against the Obama Administration in order to elect the other party so that the tax load on corporations and regulatory impediments on the freedom of corporations can both be reduced?

 

[TraditonRules]

It’s six of one and one half dozen of the other. Welcome to Obamacare

 

[TraditonRules]

Why condemn President Obama, who isn’t a Catholic and so can’t be expected to follow Church teaching, and not condemn the bulk of Catholics who don’t follow Church teachings but have an knowledge of the teaching’s rational and purpose and have an obligation to follow it?

What good is it to have pure and holy teachings in a book on a shelf in the bishop’s office if practically no one is following the teaching? Do words in a book on a shelf make the Church holy?

Isn’t the Obama Administration just looking at statistics showing that most Catholics want contraceptives to be covered by insurance plans? Whose faults is that, then?

Aren’t some people who don’t even support the Catholic Church’s ban on contraception just using this issue to intensify the opposition against the Obama Administration in order to elect the other party so that the tax load on corporations and regulatory impediments on the freedom of corporations can both be reduced?

You are missing the point respectfully. If you want a contraceptive go buy one.

Obama doesn’t need to force this on any religion nor make them pay it.

 

[Nate13]

Isn’t the Obama Administration just looking at statistics showing that most Catholics want contraceptives to be covered by insurance plans? Whose faults is that, then?

If they were looking at the polls they would be running.

rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_scott_rasmussen/team_obama_fumbles_ruling_offends_catholics

Most voters want more choices in their health care coverage, not less. By a 77 percent to 9 percent margin, voters think everybody should have the right to choose between different types of health insurance plans, including some that cost more and cover just about all medical procedures and some that cost less while covering only major medical procedures. They want options, not mandates.

But, among Catholics, only 28 percent believe religious organizations should be required to implement rules that conflict with church doctrine. Sixty-five percent are opposed. This is true even though many Catholics disagree with church teachings on birth control.

Aren’t some people who don’t even support the Catholic Church’s ban on contraception just using this issue to intensify the opposition against the Obama Administration in order to elect the other party so that the tax load on corporations and regulatory impediments on the freedom of corporations can both be reduced?

No, this is a religious rights issue and in some cases a blow back against big government. People are starting to feel the loss of their liberty in whatever form that might be and are responding.

Since you wish to question conservatives integrity though maybe I should question yours. Are you willingly to throw your Church under the bus and look the other way at this? Did you hear that in the UK they have been implanting birth control devices in children as young as 13 years old who ask for them at school without parental consent? How long will you wait before you stand up because this is where we are headed. You better figure out where your going to put your foot in the sand, before it all falls out from underneath you.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Which?

The former happened just in the last couple weeks.

The latter has been happening for about 40 years now.

I haven’t seen “are using”, I’ve seen “have used”. BIG difference. IOW, the stats I’m seeing are worded “Have ever used”. If you were a girl born after 1970 or so (maybe earlier); you’d have been encouraged by most health care providers to go on “the pill” to “regulate your cycle better”. This is not a black and white stat in the least. The ones who try to paint it as such are the manipulators.

Also, all Catholics have sinned, does that mean we should pay to support it?
Does it make the Bishops “out of touch” since they still insist sin is wrong?

 

[JoanREDirector]

I’m a Catholic news junkie so I’ve been following this story on the Internet, TV, and in the newspapers and other publications. People who oppose the Church on this and insist that this is about contraception rather than religious liberty are throwing out the statistic that 98% or 95% or some such number of “sexually active” (whatever that is) Catholic women use contraception.

I don’t know where they get their statistics but I’ve heard it about 10 times in the last few days. That number outrageous, inaccurate, conflated, unsubstantiated as it is still reflects a shameful truth. A hideous number of us (I am a Catholic woman) have done this. By our fearful, ungenerous failure we have wrought much evil. First, of course, we have refused to welcome the legions of beautiful children that a loving God would have sent us.

A host of other evil effects have followed. The high percentage of “faithful till death” Catholic marriages was once the marvel of American society. Now our divorce rate is indistinguisable. Our Catholic schools are diminishing, our seminaries and convents are empty.

Those Catholic hospitals under fire were once staffed by Catholic sisters. Now a shadowy board of directors is calling the shots. Catholic Colleges were once staffed by orders of priests who saw it as their mission to prepare students to take their place in this country as Catholic citizens and workers. Where are they now? We Catholic women were not generous enough to let them be born.

Our shameful example has left the Church in America vulnerable at this dire hour. I think “progressive” forces feel that now is their moment. The religious institutions that shielded all citizens, Catholic nor not, from the government’s control are so hollow that a kick will knock them down. Some Catholic institutions have already given in and have been handing out artificial contraceptives, sending students to the abortionist, and other such things. It will be a simple matter to strip the word, Catholic, from their title.

O my God, I am heartily sorry for havig offended thee and I confess all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell; but, most of all, I have affinded thee, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to ammend my life. Amen.

 

[iloveangels]

This is not about birth control. This is not about abortion. This is about whether the US government can tell us what to believe or not. It’s about the freedom to practice our religion as we see fit without government interference.

See the USCCB press releases here: usccb.org/news/

And the USCCB blog here: usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2012/02/six-things-everyone-should-know-about.html

 

[Rence]

Which?

The former happened just in the last couple weeks.

The latter has been happening for about 40 years now.

I think most catholics in the USA using ABCs does more harm because it makes their arguments very hypocritcal.

I see people on the forum saying, 'well I used to use ABCs before I knew better". But from a secular perspective, that only sounds like, “it’s okay for me, but not for you” because they were on ABCs and freely chose not to be on them, for whatever reason, it doesn’t matter why. The fact is, they did it, but are trying to prevent others from doing so on the basis of their undertanding changing. By trying to deny another person’s chance to make their own decisions, and yes, to grow in their faith and understanding, it just sounds very arrogant IMOHO…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I think most catholics in the USA using ABCs does more harm because it makes their arguments very hypocritcal.

I see people on the forum saying, 'well I used to use ABCs before I knew better". But from a secular perspective, that only sounds like, “it’s okay for me, but not for you” because they were on ABCs and freely chose not to be on them, for whatever reason, it doesn’t matter why. The fact is, they did it, but are trying to prevent others from doing so on the basis of their undertanding changing. By trying to deny another person’s chance to make their own decisions, and yes, to grow in their faith and understanding, it just sounds very arrogant IMOHO…

First of all…the study of 99% of women use them is flawed. If you are trying to get pregnant…you are not counted. If you are not sexually active…you are not counted. What about all the Catholic single women that are living chaste lives…that’s right…not counted.

As far as your other statement…I take offense…I used to use them when I was Protestant…now that I’m Catholic and know better…I don’t.

BTW…I pay $108 co-pay for a 90 day supply of asthma medication…but all women are entitled to free contraception? What the heck?

 

[MorningSong51]

Why condemn President Obama, who isn’t a Catholic and so can’t be expected to follow Church teaching, and not condemn the bulk of Catholics who don’t follow Church teachings but have an knowledge of the teaching’s rational and purpose and have an obligation to follow it?

What good is it to have pure and holy teachings in a book on a shelf in the bishop’s office if practically no one is following the teaching? Do words in a book on a shelf make the Church holy?

Isn’t the Obama Administration just looking at statistics showing that most Catholics want contraceptives to be covered by insurance plans? Whose faults is that, then?

Aren’t some people who don’t even support the Catholic Church’s ban on contraception just using this issue to intensify the opposition against the Obama Administration in order to elect the other party so that the tax load on corporations and regulatory impediments on the freedom of corporations can both be reduced?

There is a separation of Church and State - even though, Obama isn’t Catholic doesn’t mean that he can approach this issue with the Church by offering the use on contraceptives to the members, even regardless of the stats, the church has flat - out opposed it. That’s saying that the church authority has no voice in the matter, and that the members, because of the overwhelming amount of members, overrode that decision and had the government step into it.

Our current government has overstepped the borders - if they can overturn this decision, who then has the authority to overturn additional church law? So what’s next? We don’t base church decision on what the government may receive from their stats on what one may decide on how they want the church to change on which issues. The decisions on religion is not and should not be by the civil government law…are you saying that even though, Obama isn’t Catholic - yet, of the Christian religion that he is completely unaware of this particular subject in religion? Come one!

 

[MorningSong51]

Originally Posted by Bartolome Casas

What good is it to have pure and holy teachings in a book on a shelf in the bishop’s office if practically no one is following the teaching? Do words in a book on a shelf make the Church holy?

No, the words in a book on a shelf doesn’t make the church holy. What makes the Christian teaching Holy, is when each priest/bishop opens those books and they use those words to pray for its members. These books, that you see on the shelf don’t stay there and accumulate dust. Even though, that you may view these statistics and read the number of Christians - Catholics, that doesn’t mean that the laws in the church will change. Very sadly, and I’m sure, the priest and bishops have to take a look at these statistics along with many others. This is a good time to sit down with family - brother, sister, husband and wives and talk. There are many issues on the table, right now and within every faith, not just with the Catholic faith.

Years ago, I fell in my faith - everyone will at some moment in their life. I think of the time Peter denied Christ three times - but our Lord knew that Peter needed strength, we all do. When the Israelite were out in the desert, Moses ascended up into the mountain - and they thought that Moses was never coming back. Our Lord said the same thing about the coming of the end of days. Even though - that Christ ascended back to God, like Moses - who ascended up to the mountain to receive the laws for 40 days and nights, doesn’t mean we should loose our faith and become/or feel like orphans:

15“If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

• it was when Moses left, that the Israelite started to become afraid. The idea is that even though that Christ isn’t here physically - he is within all of us, spiritually. We must have faith - that Christ will return, 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Remember, the Golden Calf and how the passage was written, "The people began to realize that Moses was taking a long time to come down from the mountain. They gathered around Aaron and said to him, ‘Make us a god [or an oracle] to lead us. We have no idea what happened to Moses, the man who brought us out of Egypt.’ (32: 1)

Whatever the people demand out of Aaron …it still doesn’t make it a right, even under pressure. However, Aaron did as the people demanded. When Moses approached the people, he said " (Exodus 32:26) Whosoever is for God join me"

Isn’t that what our Priests are asking out of each and everyone of us? Whosoever is for Christ Join me!

 

[Rence]

First of all…the study of 99% of women use them is flawed. If you are trying to get pregnant…you are not counted. If you are not sexually active…you are not counted. What about all the Catholic single women that are living chaste lives…that’s right…not counted.

The fact of the matter is, the overwhelming majority of Catholic women have used or use ABCs and freely admit to it.

As far as your other statement…I take offense…I used to use them when I was Protestant…now that I’m Catholic and know better…I don’t.

I’m sure other Protestants take offense at being told what they should and shouldn’t be doing too, and are very grateful that it’s up to them in the end.

BTW…I pay $108 co-pay for a 90 day supply of asthma medication…but all women are entitled to free contraception? What the heck?

With all due respect, IMOHO, it seems like you have more to worry about besides other people’s choices. You should be lobbying for better asthma coverage, not just for you, but for all patients.

 

[Nate13]

@Rence

Your last two posts have been dripping with bitterness and an unwillingness to accept the existence of any moral authority here on Earth.

I think you might find this thread to be of interest and in specific the posts by JRKH in this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=644555

 

[3DOCTORS]

Well, it would help if the media would quit publishing studies about how many Catholics are disobedient to Church teaching. They don’t publish stories about how many Jewish people have eaten pork, or how many Muslim women would love to wear something besides a burqa - you see where I’m going with this.

As my generation’s parents used to say, “If everyone else were jumping off the Empire State Building . . .”

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I feel that the first priority for we Catholics is to clean up our own House first. We should take the log out our own eye, and see What We Are, How We Are Living, and correct our faults as a People, first and foremost. That is what will bring God’s Blessings to us as a People.

We say at the start of every Mass that we admit we have sinned, and that we are sorry for it. But the other 167 hours of the week we are in a holy war against the sins of our enemies in the rival political party.

Getting sucked into the political combat of partisan struggles for control of the wealth of nations and corporations isn’t helping us as a People attain the Holiness that God wills for us as a People. We are being used by shrewd, cynical people. We are being lead into believing that we can save ourselves and save the USA by condemning and defeating enemies.

Read the Holy Gospels. Read the Letters of Paul. There is none of this in them. Rather, there is the reverse. They teach us to see more and more OUR sins, repent of them, and correct them. They call on us to shepherd and “police” ourselves as a People called out to be separate and holy, a chose nation.

The way of politics is the way of Self Righteousness and the way of We Righteousness. But the way of Christ is the way of God-Alone-is-Righteous, and the way of Christ is the way of "Lord, have mercy upon ME a SINNER."

We are not called to a Crusade or Jihad against infidels (in our time and place they are called the “liberals”).

We are called to love our enemies. We are called to convert our neighbors to the Faith that Saves.

Jesus organized no army against the Roman Empire. Jesus organized no opposition party against the Roman Emperor, though many of his followers wanted Him to do exactly this. Jesus answer to Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world.”

The Apostle Paul, the other main communicator of the Holy Faith in New Testament times, also made NO efforts to organize an army against the Roman Empire, or to support one faction in the Roman Senate over another faction the ground that one fact was more in line with Christian values. Paul rather did what Jesus commanded his followers to do: Preach, convert, baptize, love neighbor, love enemies, sacrifice, teach, shepherd, respect all government authority, live quiet, peaceable lives, and look forward to paradise in the World To Come.

With politics, we Catholics are being led into a False Religion, a False Messianic Movement.

We as a People need to return to the Way of Christ.

I can think of a single canonized SAINT who would join in the political fervor that we Catholics are getting into these days.

 

[MorningSong51]

I feel that the first priority for we Catholics is to clean up our own House first. We should take the log out our own eye, and see What We Are, How We Are Living, and correct our faults as a People, first and foremost. That is what will bring God’s Blessings to us as a People.

We say at the start of every Mass that we admit we have sinned, and that we are sorry for it. But the other 167 hours of the week we are in a holy war against the sins of our enemies in the rival political party.

Getting sucked into the political combat of partisan struggles for control of the wealth of nations and corporations isn’t helping us as a People attain the Holiness that God wills for us as a People. We are being used by shrewd, cynical people. We are being lead into believing that we can save ourselves and save the USA by condemning and defeating enemies.

Read the Holy Gospels. Read the Letters of Paul. There is none of this in them. Rather, there is the reverse. They teach us to see more and more OUR sins, repent of them, and correct them. They call on us to shepherd and “police” ourselves as a People called out to be separate and holy, a chose nation.

The way of politics is the way of Self Righteousness and the way of We Righteousness. But the way of Christ is the way of God-Alone-is-Righteous, and the way of Christ is the way of "Lord, have mercy upon ME a SINNER."

We are not called to a Crusade or Jihad against infidels (in our time and place they are called the “liberals”).

We are called to love our enemies. We are called to convert our neighbors to the Faith that Saves.

Jesus organized no army against the Roman Empire. Jesus organized no opposition party against the Roman Emperor, though many of his followers wanted Him to do exactly this. Jesus answer to Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world.”

The Apostle Paul, the other main communicator of the Holy Faith in New Testament times, also made NO efforts to organize an army against the Roman Empire, or to support one faction in the Roman Senate over another faction the ground that one fact was more in line with Christian values. Paul rather did what Jesus commanded his followers to do: Preach, convert, baptize, love neighbor, love enemies, sacrifice, teach, shepherd, respect all government authority, live quiet, peaceable lives, and look forward to paradise in the World To Come.

With politics, we Catholics are being led into a False Religion, a False Messianic Movement.

We as a People need to return to the Way of Christ.

I can think of a single canonized SAINT who would join in the political fervor that we Catholics are getting into these days.

Lent is next week - Lent in 2012 will start on Wednesday, the 22nd of February and will continue for 46 days until Saturday, the 7th of April.

The act of putting on ashes symbolizes fragility and mortality, and the need to be redeemed by the mercy of God. Far from being a merely external act, the Church has retained the use of ashes to symbolize that attitude of internal penance to which all the baptized are called during Lent. —*** Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy***

Best thing to do this Lent:

Go with your family to receive ashes at Mass today. ***Leave them on your forehead as a witness to your faith. ***Here is a Lenten reflection on the meaning of the ashes on Ash Wednesday. If you have children, you may want to share this with them in terms that they can understand.

Today parents should encourage their children to reflect upon what regular penances they will perform throughout this season of Lent. Ideally, each member of the family should choose his own personal penance as well as some good act that he will perform (daily spiritual reading, daily Mass, extra prayers, almsgiving, volunteer work, housecleaning, etc.), and the whole family may wish to give up one thing together (TV, movies, desserts) or do something extra (family rosary, Holy Hour, Lenten Alms Jar).
catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/calendar/day.cfm?id=368

and, I’m going to add this thought - talk with loved ones, family and friends, and your children. Take some time during Lent and focus on the family to bring back the idea of communication. I believe we should listen to the church authority but I also think that it would be a good idea to practice these principles, also like Jesus said, "Then Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I can think of a single canonized SAINT who would join in the political fervor that we Catholics are getting into these days.

CORRECTION: The above should have said, “I **cannot **think of a single canonized SAINT…”

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Fighting a political enemy is always a losing proposition. Even you beat them this year, they always regroup and will beat us in 2, 4, 6, or 8 years. The war just goes on and on and on.

But if you CONVERT a person to the Holy Faith, bring them to repentance and acceptance of the authority of Jesus Christ and His Holy Church, then we never have to battle that person again, and nor does he need to battle us.

Thus, evangelization saves, while politics avails not.

The Founding Fathers of the USA were not Catholics (except one, I guess, right, but he was a minor playing in it all). Yet even they would be appalled at the the partisan politics. George Washington, Madison, Jefferson, etc., NEVER expected there to be political parties in the USA at all. They never expected on political party to take on the mantle of a Movement of Righteousness. They expected messianic religion in that sense to remain within the churches.