Fed Up Completely

[ParvaDei]

Lemony,

I’m so sorry about your experience with the Church, and I agree with all the things that others have said before me.

But you also said that there are some who are clearly “called” to Church and some who clearly aren’t. This is a false dichotomy, since Catholics believe that Jesus wants everyone to be saved through his one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church - even the angry ones. Now, we still have to respond to that call daily and follow His Will, but the call is universal for all people and for all time: we don’t have a doctrine of rigid predestination towards Heaven and Hell like some other Protestants do (see here - specifically p. 1037 about this).

Anyway, I’ll be praying for you!

 

[mercytruth]

I personally take the advice of St. Clement:

**Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall [themselves] be made holy. And again, in another place, [the Scripture] says, With a harmless man you shall prove yourself harmless, and with an elect man you shall be elect, and with a perverse man you shall show yourself perverse. Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. **

So, I ask God to lead me to the parish where such a priest is serving God. There are certain Orthodox Jews who would refer to such a rabbi as a Tzaddik. These are the sort of men and women I want to encounter and befriend. I do not care if they are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish or even Muslim.

In my experience there are pastors of all Christian denominations who are not serving God, and there are pastors who are serving God.

may God lead you to a true shepherd within the Catholic Church

micah

 

[Peter_Plato]

Lemony,

Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis? If not, they might provide some insight for you. Also The Problem of Pain by Lewis.

Lemony,

There was a post in another thread that included a quote from the Screwtape Letters in reference to another question, but I think it very appropriate here, as well.

This was the source, but I included part of the post below.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9946236&postcount=9

No matter what explanation helps you, never fear that Providence lacks in any detail of care for you. Know, however, that God truly has given each of us the gift of free will, so that we can act in the freedom of virtue. It is part of God’s plan to restrain his own hand in order to allow this freedom to grow to maturity. God cannot make sin anything other than a slavery; that is the nature of the consequences of choosing to act according to falsehood instead of according to the truth. Still, God must give us room to grow so that we choose virtue by an act of conforming our own will to God’s will without coersion.

This is from Chapter 8 of his book, The Screwtape Letters, (in which the senior devil, Screwtape who is speaking], refers to God as the Enemy, of course):

"…You must have often wondered why the Enemy does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to override a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For His ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with Him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve. He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning. He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs-- to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot ‘tempt’ to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy’s will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys…"

 

[Ridgerunner]

What I am going to say probably has no value and will be of no help. But I can’t help saying it.

That business with the university you attended. That’s true everywhere. Undergraduate and some graduate programs (like law, for instance) always feed the medical schools because med schools are inherently money-losers despite their high tuition. Possibly a better model could be invented for med schools and the others, but I don’t think anybody has found it yet.

I would be skeptical about the story of the pregnant woman they tried to expel. Very skeptical. If anything, one might better question the moral tolerance of most Catholic universities now as being too liberal, not too stringent. Whoever told you the story probably believed it, but I rank the story as not being worthy of credit.

I live in the Bible Belt and, all but for a few years, always have. Some protestant groups are very nice and really try to live their religion. Some are whitened sepulchers. But in all of them, there are the good and the bad because all church groups are composed of human beings and there is a lot of darkness in the hearts of human beings.

The same is true of priests and protestant ministers. One would really have to ignore a lot to suppose that ministers, on the whole, are morally superior to priests as a general proposition.

Personally, I like going to Mass. It’s the closest thing to heaven we’re going to experience on this earth, and I really do feel that way about it. Sure, sometimes sermons are boring, but that’s true in any church except the churches that are essentially wrapped around the entertainment value of one man. In the two parishes I attend, I don’t look for artificial “fellowshipping”. There’s plenty of that at the parish events if one simply wants to go outside himself and engage in it. There is no way to work at a parish carnival, for example, without befriending at least one person that one didn’t know before.

But is that really why we do any of it? I absolutely can’t stand “progressive” Masses, but I can still “go to heaven” in them. I can put up with guitar music and modern architecture and those awful St. Louis Jesuit songs, so long as there is Communion. That’s it. That’s why I’m there. For others, perhaps they would go glaze-eyed if they attended a TLM, but it’s still always the same. If Jesus didn’t lie about the Eucharist, He’s there, and that’s why I’m there. I’m not there to be entertained or to “fellowship”, and I never thought I was.

But I’ll admit that I have a wife and a family and, if one does not have those, life would perhaps be more challenging because one has fewer opportunities to forget oneself and live for others. But then, I have a sister who never married and she has made her own world of relationships and faith. I don’t really understand why she’s happy, but she is.

Maybe she just decided to be happy.

 

[Highwayhound]

Well, my friend are you still ‘Fed up’? Please let us know when you have time.

God bless

 

[tiuzzol]

All that to say this… after thinking on your messages, It’s clear some people are “called”, and well… others just aren’t. After over three decades of trying to figure this out, I clearly fall into the latter category, and it’s probably best to stop fatiguing the people of the Church who fall into the former.

Everyone is called to the Catholic Church. We are called to be one Church, one Body without the divisions between Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox churches But it’s true that the Catholic Church isn’t a very pretty body of Christ.

I think it’s good for you to express what you’re feeling. Sometimes that makes you just feel better overall. I’ve learned that having my anger pent up is really bad for me, so I have to just let it out when I’m frustrated.

It sounds like you are looking for a social aspect which many Catholic Churches aren’t very good at. I think in the past, the family and villages were the social aspect, not the Church. Unfortunately, the Church is still set up that way. It’s harder to be Catholic in a non-Catholic setting.

I used to attend both Protestant and Catholic Churches and there was no denying that the community in the Protestant churches is much better in general, and the music too. Ironically, I’ve heard similar complaints about Protestant and Catholic churches alike regarding the lack of ministry to not-divorced-singles. I think it probably depends a lot on the city. If you’re in Boston, you’ll have an easier time finding singles groups–because there are a lot more singles–than a small family town where practically everyone is married. My best suggestion would be to try to start up your own singles group (or move to a big city). I’ve been on the other side where a Church ministered mostly to single people and as a parent, I’ve felt a little out of place, but I loved the sermons, and I went anyways.

When you feel the anger, offer it to God, tell Him how you’re feeling, and ask him to help you to stop being angry and feel at home in the Church. You’re there for Him, so ask Him to be there with you in a palpable way that makes you feel happy/comfortable/loved/embraced. Because you sound like you’re not feeling any of those things. Also, ask Him to be all the social life you need. Not that you don’t need friends, but you sounds upset that you’re not married right now, so right now you need Him to be that spouse for you. And don’t ever feel bad about being chaste! I know 40+ year old unmarried men who have saved themselves for their spouse and they look around and all they see is divorced women. They get really frustrated and discouraged. I wish I could hook all of you up.

Also, whenever you feel slighted, pray for the person. If the priest ignores you, get in his face and say hi. Make him uncomfortable. If a person ignores you, say hi, and remind them where you met them. Sometimes I think “That person looks familiar–where did I see them, or it my imagination?” And nowadays, I can’t even remember where that is so I just wave to anyone who looks like they think they know me and then get funny looks sometimes.

I used to attend a Protestant Church, but I wanted to know the Truth (not the pastor’s enlightened opinion which my enlightened opinion might disagree with), and I wanted Jesus in the Eucharist. Stay with the Catholic Church, pray that God would show you which one you’ll feel at home with. And ask him to either send you a spouse or to help you to wait, but tell him you’re not happy the way you’re feeling, and ask Him to make you happy with what he’s given you.

And one last thought: It’s hard to be single, but it’s also hard to be alone in a crowd. My mom used to say something like that about marriage and it made me wonder whether she felt alone at home despite always having people around. I feel that a lot too. I’m not saying it’s better to be single, but it’s not easy either way. So the best thing is just to ask God to make you truly happy with where he’s brought you.

 

[josephback]

Our parish had a priest scandal and the bishop pulled him ASAP. Now we have a great priest who really cares. The Methodists might be “nice people”, but one can be considered a nice person and still a rebel against God. Methodism supports a lot of social evils. The only place you will ever find Jesus is the Catholic Church. I’ll say a prayer for you.

 

[GratefulFred]

Lemony,

Your evidence is compelling. I too would be angry and confused. I hope you will consider this:

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is indeed the Living Son of God?
2. Do you believe that we receive Christ in Holy Communion?
3. Do you believe that if we abandon our Faith in God, we pretty much close off our chance to spend eternity in Heaven?

My point is, when angry and confused, do not loose sight of the MOST ESSENTIAL reason to attend Mass and receive the Sacraments worthily.

In the end, our personal salvation does NOT depend on the shortcommings of those we encounter who do not act as THEY should. Do not let Satan use their weakness to pull you away from Christ.

 

[tiuzzol]

PS: People have suggested talking to a priest about your concerns. I kind of envisioned you making a face at that–seems like the priests are half of your problem, how would talking to one make you feel better?

I’d suggest doing that in the confessional in the can’t-see-each-other screen. (Politely) express your frustrations as part of confession, not in a direct way, but you can bring up the problems. See if they can give you some advice and how they respond. Maybe they can suggest a parish with a good singles group. Maybe they can help you to understand how they see things. I’ve gotten some really good 5 minute advice in the confessional, but I learn a lot about each priest through it. Some of them are really very nice people who really want to help and have a deep faith, and others are clearly completely overwhelmed by their own parish, and are looking forward to retirement. If you find someone who you really like their advice in the confessional, then you might feel comfortable making an appointment to ask them about how to deal with your feelings about the Church.

The other thing–people have said to try to work on the anger/upset feelings. From a practical aspect, if you’re looking to meet your future spouse, people are much more attracted to happy, smiling, peaceful people. So just from that aspect, as much as these things are valid frustrations, trying to let them go rather than let them fester, will be better for you (if)when you meet your future spouse. And it’s good practice for marriage where, if you have kids, you’ll have to let things roll off your back like “I hate you” or “I love daddy more” or “I want to snuggle with daddy, not you tonight.” and you’ve just got to just grin and bear it and keep on going.

 

[Stylites]

Long story short, I’ve realized that to the Catholic Church I am merely an envelope and a check, as I ever was. I won’t meet a spouse through the Church. I’m tired of seeing people in church who pretend they’ve never seen you when you’re outside the church setting. I derive negative spiritual sustenance from the Church. The newly revised Mass is clunky and artless. Attendance has become such a burden that I resent those who seem to enjoy it (if not find them downright obnoxious), and the only reason I attend is because my friends made me a godmother to their child and I wonder how badly it would upset them for me to leave.

I can only wonder at this point, how many truly awful people does it take to make a Catholic institution? Or does the nature of the institution create awful people? And if I feel enraged when attending, what to do?

I can only wonder how much worse one’s disposition would have been were it not for being catechized and hearing the 10 Commandments taught and the Gospel preached.

 

[DarkLight]

I understand. Is there an adoration program or something near you? I found one night when they were desperate for people - I’m almost always alone, at least for a bit. No other humans to distract me.

 

[Lemony]

Well, my friend are you still ‘Fed up’? Please let us know when you have time.

God bless

Thanks Highwayhound. I know this is a dead thread, but I thought I’d respond anyway.

I tried 2 protestant churches after this. A big internationally known megachurch (which a number of friends said I should go to once, just for the experience) and a more regular-sized Presbyterian church. I really did go to the first “just for the experience” - it’s too much of a prosperity gospel place for me to put much stock in it.

Sadly, both were… very welcoming in contrast to the Catholic church. At the megachurch, the first thing the pastor said before the sermon was, “Thank you for being here. We’re so glad you came today!” I think I could’ve cried at that moment. I had never heard that before. Catholicism was like making dinner for a husband for thirty years who never once said how much he appreciated it.

The Presbyterian church, which is more mainline, was also very warm. At the first service, two people asked me whether I was new and welcomed me, I met a number of parishioners, and the pastor actually e-mailed me to say that I could talk to him if I needed help transitioning to a new town. I do see myself going back to this place.

Both churches also reached out in other positive ways I haven’t experienced, but I won’t bore by getting into that too deeply. (I will mention that the Presbyterian church sent a welcome and volunteer packet of all their programs 4 days after my first service. The Catholic church sent me my my first welcome packet - consisting of a fat stack of envelopes - 6 weeks after joining). The contrast was apparent.

I’m not sure I can reconcile going to a place that is the way, the truth and the light (and the one way, apparently!) that treats its members with casual disregard or sometimes, outright disdain. Attending a church that has 85% of it correct, where I feel 80% receptive to the scripture is better to me than a church that has 100% of it correct but I feel so unwanted I’m only apt to be 10% receptive. I suppose the Eucharist is supposed to make up for these feelings, but I don’t see it.

It is what it is, and I figure that being a practicing Christian is better than being a fully non-practicing Catholic, so thank you for your time in hearing me out.

 

[tiuzzol]

Thanks Highwayhound. I know this is a dead thread, but I thought I’d respond anyway.
…

I suppose the Eucharist is supposed to make up for these feelings, but I don’t see it.

It is what it is, and I figure that being a practicing Christian is better than being a fully non-practicing Catholic, so thank you for your time in hearing me out.

Lemony, you sound like you are on a path into another church. I think we’ve tried to convince you to stay, but if you’ve decided to find your “community” elsewhere, can I ask you to consider carefully what you believe about Holy Communion? If you deep down believe that it is in fact the body and blood of Jesus, then consider going to both–the Presbyterian Church to find a community of people, and go to Mass–even if it’s the short Saturday mass with no music–to be with one person–Jesus. If you, deep in your heart, do believe that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, then make a decision to meet Him in the Eucharist every week, even if you don’t want to meet anyone Catholic anymore.

I used to have my feet in both Churches. I’d go to a Protestant service on Saturday nights (that’s when they met–they were renting space from another Church that met on Sundays), and to a Catholic Mass on Sundays. Receiving Jesus in the Eucharist was a large part of the motivation to going to Mass each week. You can do a Saturday Mass and Sunday Presbyterian–whatever works, but meet Jesus–physically–each week. Dress up for Him, go for Him, when you receive Communion, think of Him holding your hand, giving you a hug, and sitting with you. Even if you don’t feel anything, that’s an understatement of what’s happening, and if you know that deep in your heart it’s true, then make sure you don’t avoid Him physically trying to get close to him spiritually.

 

[Richard320]

Been there. Can sympathize. Your complaints are not unique. Someday, the Bishops may look at dwindling attendance and decide to find out the root causes and act on it - they were a little slow on the response, but Engaged Encounter seems to have been designed to address the problems that have consistently come up before the Marriage Tribunal.

Don’t feel like you’ve wasted your life by remaining chaste. There’s no small comfort in knowing there’s no way you have herpes, or HIV, or some antibiotic-resistant venereal disease. Nor any risk of an unwelcome pregnancy and the mental anguish that will follow as you have people pressuring you to react one way or another.

Before you take off, try sending your post to the pastor. Or to the Diocese newspaper as a letter to the editor. If you’re set on leaving, who cares what they think? But if they take it to heart, things may improve.

 

[Therese9743]

Hi,

I read your post and wanted to reply, even if it is older, because I relate to many of the things you said. Not all, but many.

I have had an awful time in the Catholic Church since I was young. I had little to no good education, went through it all like a zombie in an army drill, and by the time I was in my late teens I could not stand what I perceived to be the Church.

It probably did not help that I had a nun throw me into a pew (just because I was talking) - dragging me across the room and then throwing me into it. Things like that were not big helps.

But anyways, it has never been easy for me. I have never felt really welcomed by many priests. If I tried to talk to them, they were often cold towards me, even walking away from me. I have had my heart ripped apart many times by priests who cannot see how their words and actions hurt. Now some Catholics were great, and that helped me strengthen my faith, but even then I saw a lot of ugly things happen.

But there are some very good, very holy priests. Just seems sometimes like they can be hard to find

When I go to Church, I always feel like they do not want me there. I feel like I am not welcome. I feel hurt by how they will not help me, etc.

But here is the thing - how could I ever give up something so amazing? Gosh the people can sure make it rough - but if you really know your faith, and I mean really know it, then it beats a room full of friendly protestants any day.

They may be friendly, warm, loving, wonderful, but to be honest - you could go hang out with a group of hardened sinners in a bar and they can be warm, friendly, loving, wonderful too.

It is not going to save us just because people are warm and friendly. It may make us feel better that is for sure - but good feelings will not save us or people who party all the time would have it made

I know it is not easy but a lot of it is what is inside of us and how we process our environment. I know that a lot of mine is what I struggle with inside (you can read my post to see what I mean) - it filters how I see things, etc. I know this fortunately, which is good, but I am not strong enough to fight it well enough to not be tormented by it. When the priest prayed over me, so much of mine went away and I did not feel those awful things.

Sometimes, I try to just close my eyes in church and make it all go away. Everything - the people, my fears, etc. I just try to go deep inside and be with God and let it all fade away. If you can find a way to see Catholicism as more of a way to a relationship with God, and see the social stuff as just extras that is not really necessary though, you may begin to feel a lot better about all those others things.

You may see a lot of other people go through it to in varying degrees, but to have the Mass and the spiritual realities is worth so much more than a thousand rooms of friendly people in the end.

I hope you will hang in there. I constantly suffer with temptations to leave my faith, but I do not know where else I would go. I do not need a room full of happy people - if that is what I am after, I could go hang out in bars and party. I need the spiritual.

On Thanksgiving night I stood there, listening to “With or Without You” by U2 on my iPod - I felt that way about the Church that night. But I knew without would be far worse. The reality of the Church is so perfect on the heavenly realm, but on the earthly it will always have its struggles.

I hope you stay loyal. Just think about this - all the great saints stayed loyal even when others put them through great torments. They knew in the end the Church was about God - as for the rest, well, we will never find any place that is perfect. There will always be people that hurt us.

Stay strong! God bless you!

 

[Vigilant]

“If you were of this world, the world would love what is its own. Because you are not of this world, but I have chosen you out of this world, therefore the world will hate you”.

There are some really rotten so-called Catholics out there, but as you said, there are also some very good, dear Catholics out there. It is up to us to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[roseo64]

lemony with all do respect ask in your heart…am i looking for a social club?? or am i
looking for a relationship with God??
after 40 years absence…when i returned as a prodigal daughter the people and bishop went out of their way to welcome me and introduce themselves. i was flabberghasted. but just that was not necessary…because the only reason i went back is because i wanted to get closer to our Lord…everything else was superficial.
now …you see…we have ups and downs in all parishes. but there is no reason to blame the entire catholic church because a few have been less than cordial. and i believe that maybe you should “shop” around a little. if you’re buying a car, or tv or whatever one may go all over the place to get the best deal.
because it does sound like you are going to church for other reasons than the central gift we receive by partaking in the sacraments.
as others have said we will pray for you …it’s all between God and you.

 

[fhansen]

I can only wonder at this point, how many truly awful people does it take to make a Catholic institution? Or does the nature of the institution create awful people? And if I feel enraged when attending, what to do?

If, as you said, you have no doctrinal problems with the Church then you already possess a treasure worth more than gold. The rest of your problems are just peripheral-personal stuff, some of it ego-related-and present no good reasons for leaving the Church.

 

[BobCatholic]

I go to a parish which has mainly CINOs. Obama bumper stickers are a common sight on their cars.

99% of the people do not bother to talk to me, and that’s fine with me. But sometimes I meet people who are really nice and are a good reflection of the Catholic Church.

When I see CINOs and how they behave badly, yes, it is scandalous. But then I’m thankful because the Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners and a hotel for saints - both. If there were no sinners in the Catholic Church, I could never have gotten in.

I have met some wonderful people in the Catholic Church who are friendly, sweet, and just plain NICE. Yes they’re rare, but then again, that’s the same in the society at large.

I’ve met the local chapter of Mother Theresa’s religious order, and they’re really nice. The Missionaries of Charity are really nice! My life has been touched by a laywoman who I think will be a saint in heaven.

 

[fred_conty]

Lemony,
I couldn’t help but notice the problem of anger running thru your post. This causes a person to want revenge or to hurt back. Regardless of what you pray, or where you pray, or how you pray, or what you do, or where you are, it will be digging its nasty teeth into you. It will hurt you whereever you go or do. It is like an acid that just keeps eating away inside.

Jesus, the innocent, died on the cross with someone shaking their fists in his face demanding that he prove he is the son of God by coming down from the cross. Those around him jeered at him, “he helped others, let him help himself”. If anyone had a right to be angry, Jesus certainly did. And what did he say, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Now this is the one you love and follow. Repeat the same words about those people, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”, in your church and life experience. As you want to be forgiven, the love Jesus, show him what you are made of, show him that you will be with him in his agony, forgive them from the depths of your soul, and tell him "Father, all the suffering I have done at their hands, I offer to you as your son offered to you his pain, on their behalf. That I willingly give you any and all suffering to you Father as your other child, on their behalf, for they did not know what they were doing. And forgive me father for all that is inside of me that interferred in my loving you completely.

Jesus looks down upon you and loves you from his cross. Hanging from your cross, look down now upon Jesus in others and love them by offering for them your suffering. And being innocent as Jesus, you too will please your Father. And Father, thank you for asking me to suffer for them, I love you.

Just some thoughts.