Federal judge overturns Utah's ban on gay marriage

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No, your use of the term “being forced” is nonsense. Gay marriage doesn’t harm heterosexual marriage one bit.
It harms the institution of marriage as it redefines marriage. Your own Church, as you know is unequivocally opposed to gay ‘marriage’ and calls on all Catholics to oppose gay ‘marriage’. As a Catholic you are totally bound by the Church’s teachings on all issues of faith and morals, including the Church’s teaching on gay ‘marriage’.
 
No, your use of the term “being forced” is nonsense. Gay marriage doesn’t harm heterosexual marriage one bit. My heterosexual marriage is doing just fine, thanks very much.

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This is a very tired old saw and I think YOU can do better. You might as well say that the guy molesting his children in the apartment next door doesn’t hurt my relationship with my children. Or it doesn’t matter that the woman next door is running a brothel because my sex life is just fine thank you and she doesn’t interfere.

The whole point of this argument is the impact on society not on you. So far gays can say “I want what she’s having” using the Sleepless in Seattle excuse or they want more government benefits and have decided marriage will put more money in their pocket. Neither greed nor envy advances society. Gay couples who are married benefit society in what way? I can imagine it makes them feel warm and fuzzy that they can pretend they have what we’re having and that they get to be on their spouse’s health insurance thanks to the taxpayers.

Honestly I wouldn’t care if gays, lesbians or whomever wish to establish contractual relationships to their benefit. But the activism and the demands that the majority kowtow and accommodate their desire to make public their sex activities is a real put off…

They are coming for the Church next. Bakers and photographers are just a notch in the gun.

Lisa
 
Your “class” is simply a group that has chosen to engage in a particular sexual activity and wish to pretend that it is as intrinsic as my double X chromosome.

I do not deny that there is a fundamental right TO marry but WHOM you marry is not a fundamental right. This is where states differ. This “right” to marry someone because of a transient and ill defined sexual practice seems like a pretty great stretch. Not that judges haven’t done this before…Roe being the worst example of judicial activism. This is simply a product of 60s squish “if it feels good do it” philosophy and as all Leftist causes, is based on feelings rather than evidence.

Lisa
  1. Chosen? Oh, please. Tell it to the Church.
  2. “Leftist clauses” like outlawing child labor, ensuring an 8 hour workday (Which some people were murdered for), ending slavery, etc. Yeah, we’re just terrible people.
 
The post is about American laws. In the US we are not permitted to enact a law that favors a particular religion. The Constitution is very important to most of us, and it is our governing document, so of course we reference it. Everyone in the US is welcome to look to their church for teaching on whatever subject they choose, but that teaching cannot be imposed on others. The job our judicial system is tasked with is to determine if there is a state interest in restricting marriage to opposite sex couples only. A religious argument cannot be used in court, so the question the courts have before them is whether there is a legitimate interest furthered by that restriction. Therefore, the only teaching the court may look to is that of the Constitution, and the precedent set by the courts before them.
 
This is a very tired old saw and I think YOU can do better. You might as well say that the guy molesting his children in the apartment next door doesn’t hurt my relationship with my children. Or it doesn’t matter that the woman next door is running a brothel because my sex life is just fine thank you and she doesn’t interfere.

The whole point of this argument is the impact on society not on you. So far gays can say “I want what she’s having” using the Sleepless in Seattle excuse or they want more government benefits and have decided marriage will put more money in their pocket. Neither greed nor envy advances society. Gay couples who are married benefit society in what way? I can imagine it makes them feel warm and fuzzy that they can pretend they have what we’re having and that they get to be on their spouse’s health insurance thanks to the taxpayers.

Honestly I wouldn’t care if gays, lesbians or whomever wish to establish contractual relationships to their benefit. But the activism and the demands that the majority kowtow and accommodate their desire to make public their sex activities is a real put off…

They are coming for the Church next. Bakers and photographers are just a notch in the gun.

Lisa
Activism is what people do…they actively stand for and defend their beliefs. Nothing wrong with being an activist. In a sense, everyone here is an activist, and that’s a good thing. I’m grateful that we live where we can have these discussions without fear of reprisals.
 
Activism is what people do…they stand for and defend their beliefs. Nothing wrong with being an activist. In a sense, everyone here is an activist. I’m grateful that we live where we can have these discussions without fear of reprisals.
But judges are not called to be activists. They are called to judge the constitutionality of legislation.
 
I understand. However, Europe isn’t exactly known for being a shining example of full obedience to the Church either…
 
But judges are not called to be activists. They are called to judge the constitutionality of legislation.
A judge, in my experience, is an “Activist” over the past 30 years when the right doesn’t like a decision rendered by a court. As far as what is Constitutional, that’s what state and Federal judiciaries rule on.
 
This is a very tired old saw and I think YOU can do better. You might as well say that the guy molesting his children in the apartment next door doesn’t hurt my relationship with my children. Or it doesn’t matter that the woman next door is running a brothel because my sex life is just fine thank you and she doesn’t interfere.

The whole point of this argument is the impact on society not on you. So far gays can say “I want what she’s having” using the Sleepless in Seattle excuse or they want more government benefits and have decided marriage will put more money in their pocket. Neither greed nor envy advances society. Gay couples who are married benefit society in what way? I can imagine it makes them feel warm and fuzzy that they can pretend they have what we’re having and that they get to be on their spouse’s health insurance thanks to the taxpayers.

Honestly I wouldn’t care if gays, lesbians or whomever wish to establish contractual relationships to their benefit. But the activism and the demands that the majority kowtow and accommodate their desire to make public their sex activities is a real put off…

They are coming for the Church next. Bakers and photographers are just a notch in the gun.

Lisa
First, no one is “coming for the church.” Now if you are truly interested in knowing how society benefits from gay people marrying I’ll tell you. First, it creates a stable family unit, which in turn provides for increased economic and social stability. Second, it incentivizes the pooling of resources, this allows mutual support that enables the individuals in the relationship to do things like going to school thus making themselves a more productive member of society. It also enables the couples to create a legally recognized status that confers legal protections like custody and other legal devices. It creates a stable environment in which children can thrive. There are lots of other reasons, but my fingers are tired.
 
A judge, in my experience, is an “Activist” over the past 30 years when the right doesn’t like a decision rendered by a court. As far as what is Constitutional, that’s what state and Federal judiciaries rule on.
In many cases, to which I am assuming you refer, they would appear to have been basing their decisions on personal opinion, not legality or constitutionality.
 
First, no one is “coming for the church.” Now if you are truly interested in knowing how society benefits from gay people marrying I’ll tell you. First, it creates a stable family unit, which in turn provides for increased economic and social stability. Second, it incentivizes the pooling of resources, this allows mutual support that enables the individuals in the relationship to do things like going to school thus making themselves a more productive member of society. It also enables the couples to create a legally recognized status that confers legal protections like custody and other legal devices. It creates a stable environment in which children can thrive. There are lots of other reasons, but my fingers are tired.
Well said. My fingers are tired too. (I can hardly wait for someone to say “GOOD!”. LOL)
 
In many cases, to which I am assuming you refer, they would appear to have been basing their decisions on personal opinion, not legality or constitutionality.
A judge has the right to render a ruling based on law, legal precedent and his or her take on on the issue at hand. In fact, this is their job. This applies to judges of any political persuasion. There are rulings I don’t like as well. Hence, the appeals process.
 
A judge has the right to render a ruling based on law, legal precedent and his or her take on on the issue at hand. In fact, this is their job. This applies to judges of any political persuasion. There are rulings I don’t like as well. Hence, the appeals process.
On this we agree. What I am saying is that it would appear that many have been basing decisions on political persuasion rather than laws or the Constitution.
 
I understand where you’re coming from. In my case, there are a couple of points where I have a strong disagreement. In good conscience, I cannot accept those positions. I’d be lying to myself if I attempted to do so. Also, I used to agree with the Church on those issues. God knows my heart, and he will guide me.
 
On this we agree. What I am saying is that it would appear that many have been basing decisions on political persuasion rather than laws or the Constitution.
I agree. I’m just viewing different cases as wrong judicial decisions than you are, if I read you correctly. 🙂
 
I understand where you’re coming from. In my case, there are a couple of points where I have a strong disagreement. In good conscience, I cannot accept those positions.
Then would the best course of action not be to keep your personal views on these issues to yourself and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you back? Speaking out in public against the teaching of the Church is hardly what any Catholic ought to do.
 
Then would the best course of action not be to keep your personal views on these issues to yourself and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you back? Speaking out in public against the teaching of the Church is hardly what any Catholic ought to do.
Thank you for your comment. And now, back to our topic. 🙂
 
Paranoia, plain and simple.

And 50 years ago, interracial couples in some states couldn’t marry. Was the overturning of such vile laws also part of the “Slippery slope”?
It does seem that some people are incapable of learning from the past. In his ruling, Judge Shelby discusses the arguments presented by the State of Utah and compares them with the arguments used in Loving v Virginia:

In 1966, attorneys for the State of Virginia made the following arguments to the Supreme Court in support of Virginia’s law prohibiting interracial marriage: (1) “The Virginia statutes here under attack reflects [sic] a policy which has obtained in this Commonwealth for over two centuries and which still obtains in seventeen states”; (2) “Inasmuch as we have already noted the higher rate of divorce among the intermarried, is it not proper to ask, ‘Shall we then add to the number of children who become the victims of their intermarried parents?’”; (3) “(I)ntermarriage constitutes a threat to society”; and (4) “(U)nder the Constitution the regulation and control of marital and family relationships are reserved to the States.” Brief for Respondents at 47-52, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), 1967 WL 113931. These contentions are almost identical to the assertions made by the State of Utah in support of Utah’s laws prohibiting same-sex marriage. For the reasons discussed above, the court finds these arguments as unpersuasive as the Supreme Court found them fifty years ago.

rossum
 
It does seem that some people are incapable of learning from the past. In his ruling, Judge Shelby discusses the arguments presented by the State of Utah and compares them with the arguments used in Loving v Virginia:

In 1966, attorneys for the State of Virginia made the following arguments to the Supreme Court in support of Virginia’s law prohibiting interracial marriage: (1) “The Virginia statutes here under attack reflects [sic] a policy which has obtained in this Commonwealth for over two centuries and which still obtains in seventeen states”; (2) “Inasmuch as we have already noted the higher rate of divorce among the intermarried, is it not proper to ask, ‘Shall we then add to the number of children who become the victims of their intermarried parents?’”; (3) “(I)ntermarriage constitutes a threat to society”; and (4) “(U)nder the Constitution the regulation and control of marital and family relationships are reserved to the States.” Brief for Respondents at 47-52, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), 1967 WL 113931. These contentions are almost identical to the assertions made by the State of Utah in support of Utah’s laws prohibiting same-sex marriage. For the reasons discussed above, the court finds these arguments as unpersuasive as the Supreme Court found them fifty years ago.

rossum
Except that anti-miscegenation laws only came into play 200 years ago, whereas marriage has always been between one man and one woman.

Also, similarity of argument does not equal an identical truth value, when the arguments are in different contexts. To say otherwise is sophistic and fallacious.
 
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