Federal judge overturns Utah's ban on gay marriage

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Does civil law make a distinction between “infertile” and “impotent”? Does either appear in statutes or constitutions relevant to civil marriage in Utah?

Couples who cannot have children are not barred from civil marriage.

Why not? Neither can have children. A man with an orchidectomy cannot father any children. Does he count as “impotent” or “infertile”. Does that change if he is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual? How is any of this relevant to civil law in Utah?

So, orchidectomies, ovariectomies and hysterectomies come under your definition of “impotent” rather than “infertile”? Such persons are not currently barred from civil marriage in Utah, or in most other places.

I do not think that adoption or fostering are “ethically concerning”. Whatever the ethics, surrogate births are legal, and this thread is about legality.

rossum
You brought up questions basically asking, and I paraphrase, why infertile and/or post-menopausal hetrosexual couples can marry and homosexual couples can not, but the problem with this question is that assumes that infertility is equal to impotency. That’s the point I was making in my previous post. I believe the state in Utah in its defence of upholding marriage between one man and one woman did try to defend against the claim of inferility in hetrosexual mrriages and marriage but the Judge wasn’t persuaded by it. I have not read the state defence of marriage and the section on infertility but I bet they didn’t point out that infertility for a hetrosexual couple is different from impotency for a homosexual couple. I do not think that distiniction is made enough by proponents of marriage between a man and a woman.
 
Does civil law make a distinction between “infertile” and “impotent”? Does either appear in statutes or constitutions relevant to civil marriage in Utah?

Couples who cannot have children are not barred from civil marriage.

Why not? Neither can have children. A man with an orchidectomy cannot father any children. Does he count as “impotent” or “infertile”. Does that change if he is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual? How is any of this relevant to civil law in Utah?

So, orchidectomies, ovariectomies and hysterectomies come under your definition of “impotent” rather than “infertile”? Such persons are not currently barred from civil marriage in Utah, or in most other places.

I do not think that adoption or fostering are “ethically concerning”. Whatever the ethics, surrogate births are legal, and this thread is about legality.

rossum
You brought up questions basically asking, and I paraphrase, why infertile and/or post-menopausal hetrosexual couples can marry and homosexual couples can not, but the problem with this question is that assumes that infertility is equal to impotency. That’s the point I was making in my previous post. I believe the state in Utah in its defence of upholding marriage between one man and one woman did try to defend against the claim of inferility in hetrosexual mrriages and marriage but the Judge wasn’t persuaded by it. I have not read the state defence of marriage and the section on infertility but I bet they didn’t point out that infertility for a hetrosexual couple is different from impotency for a homosexual couple. I do not think that distiniction is made enough by proponents of marriage between a man and a woman
 
I would also point out that freedom of religion is constitutionally guaranteed. Gay marriage is not. Hence, according to the constitution, freedom of religion should trump gay marriage.
How does a change in the law on civil gay marriage affect anyone’s religions freedom? Civil divorce has been legal for a long time now. Has the religious freedom of Catholics been infringed thereby? All those remarried divorcees are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. Now there are some same sex couples are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. I fail to see a difference.
And if you really do think that this is going to stop at legal gay marriage, you are truly naive. In the push for power and rights in society, no one ever stops when they get to their goal. They ALWAYS push further.
I am waiting the push from remarried divorcees to get married in a Catholic Church. Tell me, how many such couples have successfully sued to get a Church wedding?

Your fears are not grounded in any reality.

rossum
 
How does a change in the law on civil gay marriage affect anyone’s religions freedom? Civil divorce has been legal for a long time now. Has the religious freedom of Catholics been infringed thereby? All those remarried divorcees are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. Now there are some same sex couples are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. I fail to see a difference.
For one thing, the big issue is that these subjects are very strictly laid out in the constitution to be a matter of the people in each individual state to decide on for themselves, and the constitution is being violated by taking that decision away from the people. For another thing, we see all over the place the rights of Christians to practice their faith as they believe being violated. Very recently there was even a case of a bakery in Colorado losing a case because they, due to their religious beliefs, could not bake a cake for a gay wedding - this, by the way, in a state where gay marriage was still illegal. Look at the two sides of the issues and look at the choices each side was faced with. The gay couple was given the choice to go somewhere else and still get a wedding cake. The Christian bakery was given the choice to violate their beliefs and provide that cake or shut down. They gay couple still gets their wedding and still gets their cake, whether the Christian bakery helped them or not. The Christian bakery, in contrast, was basically forced to close. They didn’t get a real choice or an option that left them happy.
I am waiting the push from remarried divorcees to get married in a Catholic Church. Tell me, how many such couples have successfully sued to get a Church wedding?
None. But I don’t know of any who have tried. I know of many cases of gay couples demanding to be allowed to be married in a church, which should prove to any thinking person that their real reasons for doing this are not out of a quest for equality, but rather to shove their beliefs on others.
Your fears are not grounded in any reality.
Then why are there already court cases, one of which I provided, that prove that it is happening? You can’t just ignore half my post because it doesn’t suit you, rossum.
 
How does a change in the law on civil gay marriage affect anyone’s religions freedom? Civil divorce has been legal for a long time now. Has the religious freedom of Catholics been infringed thereby? All those remarried divorcees are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. Now there are some same sex couples are in civil marriages that are not recognised by the Church. I fail to see a difference.
Homosexual “marriage” creates a protected political class based on a sexual activity, a behavior, not an inherent characteristic. Further the behavior is totally self reported. One cannot look at a couple and determine whether they are gay or straight, or whether they are engaged in homosexual activity. Yet these self reported behaviors create protections not given to other pairings of individuals. There is nothing unique about homosexual relationships, they are just friends with benefits so to speak.

Now they take this self reported BEHAVIOR and use it as a cudgel to demand benefits that would not be given to a couple of female friends or siblings or cousins or neighbors. They have used a self reported BEHAVIOR to demand that goods or services be provided, literally at the threat of destroying the business…which in fact HAS happened.

Homosexuals have sued to demand others be denied access to certain public areas if the others do not include homosexuals in their organization…so much for freedom of association.
I am waiting the push from remarried divorcees to get married in a Catholic Church. Tell me, how many such couples have successfully sued to get a Church wedding?

Your fears are not grounded in any reality.

rossum
Your analogy fails. Divorce is not a BEHAVIOR, it is a legal term referring to the civil dissolution of a marriage contract. Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOR. A self reported, undocumented, and sometimes transitory BEHAVIOR. It is not a legal term or document.

Lisa
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

The charity level on this thread does not meet the level needed at CAF

I am going to start issuing infractions and suspensions if it continues

Charitably discuss the issues (in this case the Utah court case) and not each other nor how well another members posts.
 
For one thing, the big issue is that these subjects are very strictly laid out in the constitution to be a matter of the people in each individual state to decide on for themselves, and the constitution is being violated by taking that decision away from the people.
The Constitution is not a religion. We were discussing religion.
Very recently there was even a case of a bakery in Colorado losing a case because they, due to their religious beliefs, could not bake a cake for a gay wedding - this, by the way, in a state where gay marriage was still illegal.
A business must abide by the laws relevant to businesses. Could a bakery run by a member of one of the racist Aryan Nation churches refuse to serve blacks legally?
Exactly. There is a lot of scaremongering about what might happen. Now that same sex marriage has been around for a few years there have been zero cases of couples suing to be married in a Catholic Church. As with remarrying divorcees, there is a lot of panic being created about nothing.

rossum
 
The Constitution is not a religion. We were discussing religion.
We were discussing religion and the constitution.
A business must abide by the laws relevant to businesses. Could a bakery run by a member of one of the racist Aryan Nation churches refuse to serve blacks legally?
Provided those laws are constitutionally acceptable. And yes, a bakery run by the aryan nation should have the right to refuse service to blacks. If a business owner wants to refuse service to blacks or whites or Catholics or men or whatever, they should have that right. Let the people show their approval or disapproval by their refusal to shop or work there.
Exactly. There is a lot of scaremongering about what might happen. Now that same sex marriage has been around for a few years there have been zero cases of couples suing to be married in a Catholic Church. As with remarrying divorcees, there is a lot of panic being created about nothing.
Maybe you should read the rest of my post which explains exactly why “none” proves even more that the fear is not unwarranted. You also keep saying that there have been no cases where couple sued to be married in the Catholic Church, while this is untrue. Furthermore, I even provided a case where a couple sued to be married in a Methodist church, which is for our purposes, functionally the same thing. So please stop acting like no one is suing for this stuff. That is patently false.
 
Please rossum you are SO misinformed. Please quit tossing out ridiculous assumptions that have no bearing on reality.

The businesses do not impose their BELIEFS upon their employees. The employees are free to engage in whatever sexual behavior they wish, they can attend any church they wish, or no church at all. They can purchase or obtain any sort of birth control or abortions they wish. The employer is not preventing access to these activities or products. The employers do not want to provide certain products that violate their conscious. That doesn’t impose a belief on anyone.

You might not be aware, but contraception, abortion, and sterilization have, up until now, been options in insurance plans. For many years (in my pre Catholic days) my insurance would not pay for my birth control pills since these pills did not treat an illness or health condition in my case. This didn’t stop me from buying the birth control pills which are easily available at low or no cost. Ditto with abortions although thankfully I never went down that road.

You like so much of the Leftist media either deliberately or mistakenly claiming that in not providing a certain drug or procedure as part of employment, that the employer is preventing them from obtaining them.

Very off topic but it speaks to your complete lack of understanding of these issues. Why do you keep tossing out these specious claims?
Lisa
No. In many jobs, employees are not free to engage in any sexual behavior that they wish. For example, a policeman who publishes sexually explicit pictures of himself or herself may be terminated. That is just one example. But many employers have morals clauses in their employment terms. And, the behavior need not be illegal, though any behavior which is illegal usually falls under such clauses. Of course, top executives and high ranking officers are often protected by the company (and even promoted to get them out of hot water with a transfer) in cases of charges of sexual harassment. For all the wrong reasons, this seems to have been true at times in private enterprise, government, military and church jobs.
 
Homosexual “marriage” creates a protected political class based on a sexual activity, a behavior, not an inherent characteristic. Further the behavior is totally self reported. One cannot look at a couple and determine whether they are gay or straight, or whether they are engaged in homosexual activity. Yet these self reported behaviors create protections not given to other pairings of individuals. There is nothing unique about homosexual relationships, they are just friends with benefits so to speak.

Now they take this self reported BEHAVIOR and use it as a cudgel to demand benefits that would not be given to a couple of female friends or siblings or cousins or neighbors. They have used a self reported BEHAVIOR to demand that goods or services be provided, literally at the threat of destroying the business…which in fact HAS happened.

Homosexuals have sued to demand others be denied access to certain public areas if the others do not include homosexuals in their organization…so much for freedom of association.

Your analogy fails. Divorce is not a BEHAVIOR, it is a legal term referring to the civil dissolution of a marriage contract. Homosexuality is a BEHAVIOR. A self reported, undocumented, and sometimes transitory BEHAVIOR. It is not a legal term or document.

Lisa
I think that most mental health professionals would disagree, if your claim is that sexual orientation is not a deeply rooted aspect of one’s personality. I am not sure what you mean by “inherent”, but sexuality is far more to a personality than a mere “behavior”. Such a dismissive attitude does not help anyone to reach any harmony in this debate, and is seen as a means of trying to dehumanize others, which in turn makes bigotry an easier practice.

When I first read “protected political class”, I was wondering if you were alluding to the fact that homosexuals are sometimes thought of in the courts as a “suspect class” which enjoys heightened legal protection, as a result of the historic prejudice which is well documented. Many jurisdictions apply a higher standard of scrutiny to claims in this area, because of the historic record.

If by “protected political class”, you mean that gays have been successful in influencing politicians by direct lobbying, media manipulation, voting, demonstrating, contributing money, and so on… then yes. They have been very effective in influencing public opinion and politics. I would also point out, that there are many other special interest groups which have also had great success in this way, too. With its deep pockets, prominent leaders, ubiquity of membership, willing audience during sermons, etc., the Church has had a fair shot at influencing public debate over the centuries. I think that some church members could adopt some of the tactics of the gay lobby effectively, but have not done so. Obviously, it would be illegal for the Church to engage in direct political machinations.

But certainly, gays have not had more access to politics or media than any other groups might, if they chose to. The relatively recent success is breathtaking. But, I don’t think that it is entirely a result of the gay liberation movement, and related efforts. It is, as I have stated before, more a predictable outcome of the changing values which started with the women’s movement, and the liberalization of sexual and marriage standards among heterosexuals. Without those changes first occurring, nobody would have seriously contemplated the idea of gay marriage.

This cat is out of the bag. There is no going back. To do so, would mean also to change marriage an divorce law for heterosexuals, and to roll back sexual laws in general. For that to happen, the entire moral outlook of the majority of the populace would have to change regarding sexual behavior and marriage, and perhaps even gender roles and duties. That is not going to happen.

I don’t think that it is accurate to characterize the gay marriage debate as being about the sexual behavior of a small minority. Rather it is a natural outcome of other larger changes which have been rolling along as “social progress” for many decades. Focusing on the smallest of the issues, and really the lease significant aspects, won’t yield much success or understanding of what is going on.
 
Scalia finds his predictions on same-sex-marriage ruling being borne out

When the court last June struck down the federal Defense of Marriage Act and said the federal government must recognize same-sex marriages performed in those states where it was legal, Scalia sounded a loud warning.

While the five-member majority of the court said it was not deciding whether a constitutional right to marriage must be extended to same-sex couples, Scalia said the reasoning of the decision made that outcome practically preordained.

“It takes real cheek for today’s majority to assure us, as it is going out the door, that a constitutional requirement to give formal recognition to same-sex marriage is not at issue here,” Scalia wrote.

Instead, “the majority arms well every challenger to a state law restricting marriage to its traditional definition,” Scalia wrote, and such suits are a “second . . . shoe to be dropped later.”

washingtonpost.com/politics/scalia-finds-his-predictions-on-same-sex-marriage-ruling-being-borne-out/2013/12/29/d2c7b90a-7097-11e3-8def-a33011492df2_story.html

Love him or hate him; Scalia will go down in history as one of our better Justices.
 
Love him or hate him; Scalia will go down in history as one of our better Justices.
He has his shining moments. But in the context of his larger body of opinions, I doubt it. My opinion is that he will be seen as an self absorbed oddball who managed to get onto the Court.
 
I think that most mental health professionals would disagree, if your claim is that sexual orientation is not a deeply rooted aspect of one’s personality. I am not sure what you mean by “inherent”, but sexuality is far more to a personality and a mere “behavior”. Such a dismissive attitude does not help anyone to reach any harmony in this debate, and is seen as a means of trying to dehumanize others, which in turn makes bigotry an easier practice.

When I first read “protected political class”, I was wondering if you were alluding to the fact that homosexuals are sometimes thought of in the courts as a “suspect class” which enjoys heightened legal protection, as a result of the historic prejudice which is well documented. Many jurisdictions apply a higher standard of scrutiny to claims in this area, because of the historic record.

If by “protected political class”, you mean that gays have been successful in influencing politicians by direct lobbying, media manipulation, voting, demonstrating, contributing money, and so on… then yes. They have been very effective in influencing public opinion and politics. I would also point out, that there are many other special interest groups which have also had great success in this way, too. With its deep pockets, prominent leaders, ubiquity of membership, willing audience during sermons, etc., the Church has had a fair shot at influencing public debate over the centuries. I think that some church members could adopt some of the tactics of the gay lobby effectively, but have not done so. Obviously, it would be illegal for the Church to engage in direct political machinations.

But certainly, gays have not had more access to politics or media than any other groups might, if they chose to. The relatively recent success is breathtaking. But, I don’t think that it is entirely a result of the gay liberation movement, and related efforts. It is, as I have stated before, more a predictable outcome of the changing values which started with the women’s movement, and the liberalization of sexual and marriage standards among heterosexuals. Without those changes first occurring, nobody would have seriously contemplated the idea of gay marriage.

This cat is out of the bag. There is no going back. To do so, would mean also to change marriage an divorce law for heterosexuals, and to roll back sexual laws in general. For that to happen, the entire moral outlook of the majority of the populace would have to change regarding sexual behavior and marriage, and perhaps even gender roles and duties. That is not going to happen.

I don’t think that it is accurate to characterize the gay marriage debate as being about the sexual behavior of a small minority. Rather it is a natural outcome of other larger changes which have been rolling along as “social progress” for many decades. Focusing on the smallest of the issues, and really the lease significant aspects, won’t yield much success or understanding of what is going on.
  1. Inherent refers to something that is more than a personality trait or a behavior that manifests the personality trait. The reality is that homosexuals have gained status for a behavior that is self reported, changeable, and frankly unnatural from a biological point of view. It is truly absurd. Even more absurd is CELEBRATING this behavior.
  2. Homosexuals have created a “class” out of a behavior. This is not the same as a “class” that refers to gender, racial characteristics, or even detrimental results from a drug or environmental catastrophe such as with a class action lawsuit. Homosexuals expect that their sexual behavior to be considered as intrinsic as their gender. Patently absurd.
  3. I agree that homosexual behavior has become more acceptable as a result of changing sexual mores in this and other countries. But to call it “progress” is to presume that this is a POSITIVE change. If we look at the chaos resulting from these changes resulting in more children in poverty, diseases (STDs are epidemic, even among teens), and the hideous slaughter of millions of unborn babies, I think that is easily disputed.
  4. The cat may be put back in the bag. We need only to look to Rome which sadly predicts the continuing downward spiral of our country. Child sacrifice, using of boys for homosexual slaves, gladiators, wild animals allowed to kill people, along with rampant debauchery among certain classes is no longer practiced in Italy (much less in America) and we can thank Christianity for the taming of these perverted behaviors.
  5. We can thank the Left which has a stranglehold on much of the media for the false image of all sorts of sexual perversion and abberant behavior. Entertain the masses and you can do anything while they are distracted.
Lisa
 
No. In many jobs, employees are not free to engage in any sexual behavior that they wish. For example, a policeman who publishes sexually explicit pictures of himself or herself may be terminated. That is just one example. But many employers have morals clauses in their employment terms. And, the behavior need not be illegal, though any behavior which is illegal usually falls under such clauses. Of course, top executives and high ranking officers are often protected by the company (and even promoted to get them out of hot water with a transfer) in cases of charges of sexual harassment. For all the wrong reasons, this seems to have been true at times in private enterprise, government, military and church jobs.
Of course morals codes exist in certain employment contracts but in general, employers do not monitor what goes on in your bedroom. The point which you apparently missed is that employers do not prevent access to birth control, sterilization or abortion inducing drugs which was the theory promoted by the poster.

Lisa
 
A business must abide by the laws relevant to businesses. Could a bakery run by a member of one of the racist Aryan Nation churches refuse to serve blacks legally?

Exactly. There is a lot of scaremongering about what might happen. Now that same sex marriage has been around for a few years there have been zero cases of couples suing to be married in a Catholic Church. As with remarrying divorcees, there is a lot of panic being created about nothing.

rossum
I believe your post obfuscates the issues. The cases where bakeries and photographers were sued were not a matter of refusing to provide service to homosexuals but refusing to participate in homosexual ceremonies. In the case of our state’s now closed bakery, the owner had many gay and Lesbian clients who came in and purchased items without an issue. One of the customers asked if the baker would provide a cake for their commitment ceremony and was refused. Ditto with the case of the photographer in another state. It is not that the individuals were refused but that the business owner didn’t provide the service for the event requested. Further, unlike blacks who are rather obvious, homosexuals must INFORM the proprietor of their sexual activity or he/she is unaware.

Completely different situations. When I wanted to engage a wedding photographer, I contacted a photographer I knew and he said he was unable to photograph my wedding. So I called another photographer, I didn’t sue him. These cases are simply absurd and I believe very detrimental to the cause of homosexuals wishing to be treated like rational adults.

I have no idea why you keep tossing out the Red Herring of divorced couples suing the Church to be married. In fact divorced couples can and do get married in the Church if they obtain a certificate of nullity. The only person who seems to be scaremongering about divorced couples suing churches is you. That gays will and have sued the Church is hardly scaremongering. There have already been suits against Catholic organizations and even parishes when gays or Lesbians, again self reporting and clearly trying to make an issue of their sexual behavior, have threatened, boycotted, harrassed and even sued because they were removed from employment or volunteer positions due to their getting “married” or other violations of morals codes.

Lisa
 
You also keep saying that there have been no cases where couple sued to be married in the Catholic Church, while this is untrue.
You have omitted a crucial word. I said “successfully sued” (post #545). People sue for all sorts of things. Not all their suits succeed.

rossum
 
You have omitted a crucial word. I said “successfully sued” (post #545). People sue for all sorts of things. Not all their suits succeed.

rossum
All it takes is one sympathetic judge.
 
You have omitted a crucial word. I said “successfully sued” (post #545). People sue for all sorts of things. Not all their suits succeed.

rossum
And I provided a case where they successfully sued a Methodist church, which is, again, for our purposes here, functionally the same thing. So again, you are clearly not reading what I write.
 
And I provided a case where they successfully sued a Methodist church, which is, again, for our purposes here, functionally the same thing. So again, you are clearly not reading what I write.
But they didn’t successfully sue a Methodist church… They successfully sued a rental property. Unless rental properties are now considered houses of worship, lifesite has once again upheld their reputation for factual errors and hyperbole.
 
But they didn’t successfully sue a Methodist church… They successfully sued a rental property. Unless rental properties are now considered houses of worship, lifesite has once again upheld their reputation for factual errors and hyperbole.
It was an open-air Methodist chapel, and it was Methodist Church property, hence they sued a Methodist church. Do I need to point out the words of the judge, too? That religious freedom needs to be set aside for the sake of progress? He openly admitted that it was a violation of religious freedom and did it anyway.
 
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