Federal judge overturns Utah's ban on gay marriage

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Prayer and fasting can be powerful and should be done more often, and you don’t a doctor or lawyer to make an assessment on this.
The man in Utah said specifically that this is not a religious fast, and in fact cited Gandhi’s hunger strikes as an example. He’s only drinking water and taking some vitamins, and he says that he committed to this even if it means death. I’m not a medical doctor, and thus I’m curious as to what medical doctors think of his hunger strike. Even taking with him taking vitamins this does not sound healthy at all.

For constitutional lawyers, I’m curious as to what you think of the legal theory of nullification. He seems to be protesting more of what he perceives to be the federal government interfering with states’ rights than with gay marriage itself. He thinks that the state of Utah should just ignore Judge Shelby’s ruling. If Utah were to nullify Shelby’s ruling what would be the federal government’s response?
 
For constitutional lawyers, I’m curious as to what you think of the legal theory of nullification. He seems to be protesting more of what he perceives to be the federal government interfering with states’ rights than with gay marriage itself. He thinks that the state of Utah should just ignore Judge Shelby’s ruling. If Utah were to nullify Shelby’s ruling what would be the federal government’s response?
I think we fought a Civil War that ended the nullification debate. There is no such withheld right within the States as far as the US is concerned.
 
Yes, for legal purposes. I have not seen a sufficient legal argument for treating the two forms of relationship differently.

rossum
Well, for legal purposes, if the intimate sexual nature of such a union is not taken into consideration, I don’t see any sufficient legal argument for treating the two forms of relationships differently either.

That being said, I also see no sufficient legal argument for treating any others differently either, which would definately include polygamy, incest and roommates, thus marriage becomes reduced to just some mere “contract” between said parties, in which secular society will say “we don’t need a certificate to prove our love for one another.”

So really u’ll end removing what little value there is left to civil marriage, but I don’t think you care much about that rossum, as marriage for most people arguing for same sex marriage is just some mere contract for them anyway, in which if you had a partner, I could almost bet you would say along the lines of “we don’t need a certificate to prove our love for one another.” and just not bother with marriage at all, which is what the majority of secular society will most likely end up doing.

The other point I would make, is that if it’s just going to be held as some “contract” in the eye’s of the law, than why call it a marriage? that is what I find most offensive, if it’s just a contract than perhaps as we mentioned before, it should be just called civil union, because that’s all it is in the eyes of the law, so I believe it should be recognised as such.

Calling it nothing more than a mere contract between said parties and than pushing the whole “marriage” card is offensive to everyone who holds “marriage” as something more than some mere contract, do you not see that rossum? if that is all marriage is in the eyes of the law, in your eyes rossum, why not push for civil unions? why call it a marriage at all?

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
… women were not allowed to vote, slavery was legal and Native Americans were not counted in censuses. Oh, and everybody lived like the Amish with neither cars nor televisions.

Things change. We are seeing changes taking place at the moment.

rossum
True.

However what does gender have to do with voting? thus I would concluded it is unjust discrimination, same with slavery, the colour of someones skin is irrelevant.

Now we ask, what does gender have to do with marriage? and the answer is, everything. (hence the reproductive system) the fact of the unique compatibility and complemnetarity between the human anatomy of a man and a woman.

However if sexual intimacy is irrelevant to marriage, than as you say rossum, gender is irrelevant, and so is polygamy, incest and roommates, in which case, as I said above, if it’s just a mere contract, than why not call it as such? why call it marriage?

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
InSearchofGrace;11564785:
…As is known to happen, the dark side, or the wrong side, sometimes prevails in court. Not because the right side is lacking in sufficient legal arguments, but because court trials are a a cr*p shoot, down, i.e., it goes one way, also dependent on time and circumstance, factors outside legal arguments. Time and circumstance have a way of affecting case proceedings. Such as when Vaughan Walker, a gay judge, ruled on Prop 8, nullifying said voter initiative in California limiting marriage to a man and a woman, such as when just one more Supreme Court justice could have voted, but did not, for the interest of the United States instead of Edith Windsor on DOMA, such as when the case challenging the voter-approved gay “marriage” ban in Utah fell in the lap of Judge Shelby in the U.S. District Court, an Obama appointee sitting on the bench for just six months.

I realize such developments favoring gay “marriage” help your advocacy, but the wind is blowing in the wrong direction for society.

Consider that the winds blew a certain way three years before Roe v Wade was decided in favor of legal abortion by the Supreme Court in 1973. In that landmark case, plaintiff Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe) was pregnant, unemployed and depressed, and thereby sought an abortion. She was not raped but that was the story (for which she now regrets) she told two ambitious lawyers (Weddington and Coffee) who capitalized on the lie in challenging the Texas state law prohibiting abortion, the case going all the way to the Supreme Court. Roe v Wade is bad law, it is evil, but it is legal — 56 million American babies have been aborted and women in the millions have been harmed for over forty years. Increasingly, people would like to see this bad law allowing legal genocide of babies in the womb reversed.

Before any homosexual reading this gets bent out of shape, I am not at all posturing that homosexuals are evil. Homosexual “marriage” is.
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Also to the point is that marriage was instituted to protect women and children, and to provide a more prosperous and stable society. It had intrinsic benefits that might not always occur but in the overall picture, marriage did and does serve those two societal ends.

When the courts have permitted social experiments from no fault divorce to abortion, when society no longer cares whether women are married before they have a child, the results are not the butterflies and fuzzy bunnies that were promised. Remember the theory that once abortion was legal, no more abused children! Once no fault divorce came into being, no more children “scarred” by their parents’ unhappy marriage.

How’s that workin out? There is something to be said for the wisdom of the ages. Facts change but the truth does not. Social experiments tend to turn into disasters, particularly for the weakest among us. I fully believe that Same Sex “Marriage” is yet another in a long and distinguished series of assaults. The lawsuits, the harassment, the demands for silencing anyone who dares say they believe in traditional marriage all point to a very chaotic future for our country.

Lisa
Well said InSearchof Grace and Lisa. 👍
:clapping:
 
It’s really no better; you’re setting a pretty low standard. I still shows a fundamental lack of respect and understanding of people different from you.
If any side in this contentious debate is lacking in respect, it would be homosexualists pushing for gay “marriage” with disregard for the objectively common good, the human tradition and social value placed on the natural family unit, which is the building block of society.

This law accommodates a want by a segment of the population, which fundamentally changes the social landscape. It is in response to a demand, as we are told, for 1,000+ federal benefits, so that same sex “fiancé” visas can be given to non-U.S. citizens, etc., with the obvious albeit not admitted underlying objective of forcing acceptance of homosexual copulation as natural and normal. Outside personal benefit and pleasure of same sex couples, can you articulate what of homosexual “marriage” is altruistic, ennobling, necessary or redemptive?
,
 
However what does gender have to do with voting?
My argument was against the “It has always been done that way. It’s traditional,” argument. Voting was a convenient and easily understood example of why that argument is faulty.
Now we ask, what does gender have to do with marriage? and the answer is, everything. (hence the reproductive system) the fact of the unique compatibility and complemnetarity between the human anatomy of a man and a woman.
Is marriage disallowed for people who lack part of their reproductive system, such as after a hysterectomy or an orchidectomy? No it is not, they are allowed to be married with non-functioning reproductive systems. Hence we can see that reproduction is not essential to marriage. There is no legal requirement to be fertile to enter into marriage, and there is no legal requirement to have children after marriage. Your thesis is obviously incorrect.
However if sexual intimacy is irrelevant to marriage, than as you say rossum, gender is irrelevant, and so is polygamy, incest and roommates, in which case, as I said above, if it’s just a mere contract, than why not call it as such? why call it marriage?
Civil marriage is a legal contract. The contract is defined by law. Currently the law is changing. It may well continue to change in the future. That is up to the voters, the politicians and the courts.

rossum
 
My argument was against the “It has always been done that way. It’s traditional,” argument. Voting was a convenient and easily understood example of why that argument is faulty.
Okay.
Is marriage disallowed for people who lack part of their reproductive system, such as after a hysterectomy or an orchidectomy? No it is not, they are allowed to be married with non-functioning reproductive systems. Hence we can see that reproduction is not essential to marriage. There is no legal requirement to be fertile to enter into marriage, and there is no legal requirement to have children after marriage. Your thesis is obviously incorrect.
My thesis wasn’t “reproduction” it’s the unique compatibility and complementarity shared only between a man and a woman, that’s why I said “hence the reproductive system” I’m not saying they need to reproduce, but that they are still capable of that same sexual act. They still share that same compatibility.

Even polygamy makes more sense.
Civil marriage is a legal contract. The contract is defined by law. Currently the law is changing. It may well continue to change in the future. That is up to the voters, the politicians and the courts.

rossum
So why argue for marriage? why not civil unions having the same legal rights? If civil marriage is just a mere contract, in which parties can enter into and leave at any time, why on earth does secular society even want to get married? whats the point?

Like I said, it’s interesting that secular society is so passionate about same sex marriage when they hold “marriage” in such low regard, why do you care about what people wish to call a marriage or not rossum?

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
My argument was against the “It has always been done that way. It’s traditional,” argument. Voting was a convenient and easily understood example of why that argument is faulty.
True, but as G.K. Chesterton said, usually people stop and ask themselves why the fence was put up before they take it down.
 
Court stops Utah gay marriages

The Supreme Court on Monday morning put on hold a federal judge’s decision striking down Utah’s ban on same-sex marriage, thus putting a stop to a wave of such marriages across the state. The Court’s order will keep the state ban intact until after a federal appeals court has ruled on it.

scotusblog.com/2014/01/court-stops-utah-gay-marriages/

It was a decision of the entire court. See:

(ORDER LIST: 571 U.S.)
MONDAY, JANUARY 6, 2014
ORDER IN PENDING CASE
13A687 HERBERT, GOV. OF UT, ET AL. V. KITCHEN, DEREK, ET AL.
The application for stay presented to Justice Sotomayor and
by her referred to the Court is granted. The permanent
injunction issued by the United States District Court for the
District of Utah, case No. 2:13-cv-217, on December 20, 2013, is
stayed pending final disposition of the appeal by the United
States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit

sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/13A687_Herber_v_Kitchen_Order1.pdf
 
And there were many people who disagreed and argued against giving women the vote. Those people were wrong to do so.
True, but voting rights aren’t a valid comparison. Voting is not something that occurred in every human society throughout history. Even in the UK, not all men could vote before 1918.
Agreed. I do not dispute that different marriages are different. The question is whether those differences justify different treatment under the law.

rossum
Without requiring a rather invasive medical exam or questionnaire, which type on union has the potential to carry the society forward beyond the lifetime of those who enter into the union?
 
So why argue for marriage? why not civil unions having the same legal rights?
Simplicity. There are a lot of laws that would need rewriting to change “mariage” to “marriage or civil union”. Good luck doing that with the current US Congress. It is simpler to retain the word “marriage” and all the other rights automatically follow.
If civil marriage is just a mere contract, in which parties can enter into and leave at any time, why on earth does secular society even want to get married?
To avoid death duties; that is why the Windsor case was brought. To allow your partner easier US residency. Because you’re Britney Spears and you want to be married for 55 hours. People get married for lots of reasons.

rossum
 
Honestly, I’m getting tired of being a Catholicist. Christianism doesn’t seem to work. People will do what they want regardless of whether we turn blue in the face arguing with them or not… Everyone knows our position. 🤷

I say let them live their own lives. God will be their judge. In the meantime I’ll live my life.
 
If any side in this contentious debate is lacking in respect, it would be homosexualists pushing for gay “marriage” with disregard for the objectively common good, the human tradition and social value placed on the natural family unit, which is the building block of society.

This law accommodates a want by a segment of the population, which fundamentally changes the social landscape. It is in response to a demand, as we are told, for 1,000+ federal benefits, so that same sex “fiancé” visas can be given to non-U.S. citizens, etc., with the obvious albeit not admitted underlying objective of forcing acceptance of homosexual copulation as natural and normal. Outside personal benefit and pleasure of same sex couples, can you articulate what of homosexual “marriage” is altruistic, ennobling, necessary or redemptive?
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You would be right if same-sex marriages actually necessitated the destruction of opposite sex couples. But it doesn’t and each can exist and in fact does exist at the same time. Also any perceived insult can only exist by seeing same sex coupling as lesser.

Laws need to respond to the current social situation. Gays are marrying and the law needs to catch up. You have the situation reversed. Laws do not make same sex couples marry, same-sex couples marry and the law responds.

As the value of same sex marriages, every single shred is valuable.
 
You would be right if same-sex marriages actually necessitated the destruction of opposite sex couples. But it doesn’t and each can exist and in fact does exist at the same time. Also any perceived insult can only exist by seeing same sex coupling as lesser.

Laws need to respond to the current social situation. Gays are marrying and the law needs to catch up. You have the situation reversed. Laws do not make same sex couples marry, same-sex couples marry and the law responds.

As the value of same sex marriages, every single shred is valuable.
Basic biology would discount your claim that same sex activity is equivalent to male female sexual activity. The latter provides physical and emotional bonding which is designed to maintain the pairing for conception and raising of children. The former is mutual masturbation using the digestive system, which can product sexual stimulation but was not designed with sexual activity as a major function. Nor can this type of activity ever produce a child. The body parts of males and females are not interchangeable. Our body parts and systems were designed for certain activities and have a highest purpose. Thus from a secular and biological viewpoint, opposite sex relationships are using their bodies as nature (and I believe God) intended in the healthiest and most efficient way.

Those who claim somehow same sex relationships aren’t inherently unhealthy also need a bit of biology instruction. It’s fascinating to hear from a physician regarding the way we are fearfully and wonderfully made, even if he’s not a believer. For example male sperm as an “invader” would normally be rejected by the body, stimulating a chemical response as if a foreign bacteria had entered. But in fact a woman’s reproductive tract is designed to accept, and in fact encourage the transmission of sperm toward an egg. Not so with the entrance into the mouth or lower GI tract.

Ask yourself why all of our dentists are now checking us for oral cancer…could it be they think we’re all dipping “chew?” Nope. All of the oral sex that is of course no only practiced by homosexuals but more likely for their sexual activity, has resulted in the spread of STDs that result in mouth cancer. Nice huh? Oh and I don’t think anyone needs to be treated to the impact of anal penetration, with or without an STD being introduced.

So please don’t claim that there is something enobling, healthy or even normal about homosexual activity. From a purely secular point of view it would seem society has no role in encouraging homosexual activity much less pair bonding.

Again it doesn’t mean I disbelieve that homosexuals can have deep and strong love for each other. I would never deny this having seen it in several of my gay friends. However to claim that same sex marriages are equivalent, just because Joe and Bob want to call themselves “married” is ridiculous. They cannot pretend the laws of nature/biology, much less the laws of God are moot.

Lisa
 
By design!

As so called intelligent human beings, we are able to efficiently identify the proper application of many things, based purely on their design.
This type of reasoning can be found at a human beings early stage of development. It is an intelligent skill that isn’t taught, but is learned and reasoned based on the principles of design and application.
By design and application…the male and female union can be reasoned and supported by the science of biology.
Same sex unions cannot be supported by design and application…and is therefore a lifestyle choice. A freedom we all enjoy.
To demand others must except such lifestyle choices, that cannot be reasoned by design or application and enshrine them in law, is simply a misuse of the legal system for one’s own personal indulgences.
 
Basic biology would discount your claim that same sex activity is equivalent to male female sexual activity. The latter provides physical and emotional bonding which is designed to maintain the pairing for conception and raising of children. The former is mutual masturbation using the digestive system, which can product sexual stimulation but was not designed with sexual activity as a major function. Nor can this type of activity ever produce a child. The body parts of males and females are not interchangeable. Our body parts and systems were designed for certain activities and have a highest purpose. Thus from a secular and biological viewpoint, opposite sex relationships are using their bodies as nature (and I believe God) intended in the healthiest and most efficient way.

Those who claim somehow same sex relationships aren’t inherently unhealthy also need a bit of biology instruction. It’s fascinating to hear from a physician regarding the way we are fearfully and wonderfully made, even if he’s not a believer. For example male sperm as an “invader” would normally be rejected by the body, stimulating a chemical response as if a foreign bacteria had entered. But in fact a woman’s reproductive tract is designed to accept, and in fact encourage the transmission of sperm toward an egg. Not so with the entrance into the mouth or lower GI tract.

Ask yourself why all of our dentists are now checking us for oral cancer…could it be they think we’re all dipping “chew?” Nope. All of the oral sex that is of course no only practiced by homosexuals but more likely for their sexual activity, has resulted in the spread of STDs that result in mouth cancer. Nice huh? Oh and I don’t think anyone needs to be treated to the impact of anal penetration, with or without an STD being introduced.

So please don’t claim that there is something enobling, healthy or even normal about homosexual activity. From a purely secular point of view it would seem society has no role in encouraging homosexual activity much less pair bonding.

Again it doesn’t mean I disbelieve that homosexuals can have deep and strong love for each other. I would never deny this having seen it in several of my gay friends. However to claim that same sex marriages are equivalent, just because Joe and Bob want to call themselves “married” is ridiculous. They cannot pretend the laws of nature/biology, much less the laws of God are moot.

Lisa
:clapping:
 
The former is mutual masturbation using the digestive system,
Not for lesbians it isn’t. Are you really so lacking in knowledge of what you are criticising?
Nor can this type of activity ever produce a child.
So, you propose that all post-menopausal heterosexual women should refrain from sex with their husbands. I’m sure that will be very popular. You really need to think through these arguments a lot more before you post them here.

rossum
 
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