Federal Judge Says San Francisco's Labeling of Catholics as "Hateful" is Constitution

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What is disgusting is the position that the city was objecting to: i.e., “…the teaching of the Catholic Church that homosexual adoption does “violence” to children since they would be placed in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development.” The article does not suggest that the Church is denying that this is their position so I’m assuming that it is. If so, it is a ridiculous and discriminatory position and should be objected to.
On the contrary, it is a very important part of the placement of a child for adoption to be discriminating with respect to the pool of possible parents. Any agency which fails in such regard is being lax in its duty and ought to have its policy objected to.
I didn’t see anywhere that either the city or the court was saying that the Church itself is hateful, but just that their position on this issue was hateful:

"The resolution blasted the teaching as "hateful and discriminatory rhetoric (that) is both insulting and callous, and shows a level of insensitivity and ignorance which has seldom been encountered by this Board of Supervisors.’’
No, the city does not call the Church hateful; only insensitive and ignorant.

tee
 
On the contrary, it is a very important part of the placement of a child for adoption to be discriminating with respect to the pool of possible parents. Any agency which fails in such regard is being lax in its duty and ought to have its policy objected to.

No, the city does not call the Church hateful; only insensitive and ignorant.

tee
It is indeed important that adoption agencies carefully screen potential adoptive parents to ensure that they can provide a safe and secure home for the child. Factors to look at would include financial stability of the prospective parents, their criminal background (better said, their lack of one), the length of time the couple has been together.

Whether both parents are of the same sex should not be a factor as it really does not affect whether the parents can provide a safe and secure home for the child.
 
IOW: “The city is not condemning Catholics for their Catholicism; it is condemning Catholics who follow Church teaching.”

IOW, yes, the city is condemning Catholics for being Catholic.

– Mark L. Chance.
Mark, all Catholics do not blindly follow Church policy. There are many policies (e.g. use of birth control) which most Catholics completely ignore.

Your position suggests that if one calls himself Catholic he automatically is deemed to have accepted and endorsed each and every one of the Church’s teachings. That is simply not the case.
 
Mark, all Catholics do not blindly follow Church policy. There are many policies (e.g. use of birth control) which most Catholics completely ignore.

Your position suggests that if one calls himself Catholic he automatically is deemed to have accepted and endorsed each and every one of the Church’s teachings. That is simply not the case.
Just because some Catholics ignore doctrine doesn’t mean that doctrine is bad doctrine.

People drink and drive, does that mean the prohibition against drinking and driving is a bad law?
 
Whether both parents are of the same sex should not be a factor as it really does not affect whether the parents can provide a safe and secure home for the child.
You can assert this as many times as you like, but it does not change the opinion of the Church, that placing a child with a same-sex couple would be to do violence to the child.

tee
 
And here’s a link to the actual ruling.
As a legal matter, the decision issued in this case was clearly the correct one. The resolution was issued by the city to a Cardinal of the Vatican encouraging him not to issue directives that discriminate against San Francisco residents because of their sexual orientation.

The resolution clearly has a secular purpose (preventing discrimination), the primary purpose (preventing discrimination) does not inhibit religion and it does not foster excessive entanglement. Adoption counseling and placement is primarily a secular function. As the court essentially said, the fact that a religious group is involved in such an activity does not make it a religious one.

It’s kind of amusing the “evidence” of discrimination that the plaintiffs. One is that the city referred to the Vatican as a foreign country (it is a sovereign entity) and the other is that the city noted that the previous name for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith as the Holy Office of Inquisition (which it was). Apparently making true statements about the Church is discrimination.
 
You can assert this as many times as you like, but it does not change the opinion of the Church, that placing a child with a same-sex couple would be to do violence to the child.

tee
The Church’s opinion on this topic is without evidence or justification and is discriminatory. It should therefore be fought.
 
The Church’s opinion on this topic is without evidence or justification and is discriminatory. It should therefore be fought.
The Church’s position on this is justified and correct.

In addition, we have the right and duty to fight back with** ANY LEGAL MEANS **possible. That is including filing suits against the city of San Francisco at the least perception of discrimination against us. I would also suggest boycotting San Francisco entirely.
 
The Church’s opinion on this topic is without evidence or justification and is discriminatory. It should therefore be fought.
Your opinion on this topic (I presume, since you keep asserting it) is just as much without evidence or justification. We have already agreed that discrimination is required in this situation, if the interests of the child are to be served.

tee
 
Mark, all Catholics do not blindly follow Church policy.
:rolleyes:

Yes, of course, because only those Catholics who are faithful to the Church are the blind ones.

Here’s a thought: Rather than insulting faithful Catholics, why not actually try to justify your position:
The Church’s opinion on [homosexual people adopting children] is without evidence or justification and is discriminatory. It should therefore be fought.
You’ve made a rather bold statement. Back it up. Show us the hard data that children raised by homosexual couples aren’t disadvantaged compared to those raised by a married, heterosexual couple.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The Church’s opinion on this topic is without evidence or justification and is discriminatory. It should therefore be fought.
You seem angry and frustrated. Why don’t we approach the problem as the Church teaches us – let us pray for the grace to understand and accept the Church’s teaching.

Suppose we all agree to say the Rosary at a given time – say, 10 AM CST tomorrow – and ask for God’s help to follow the Church.
 
You seem angry and frustrated. Why don’t we approach the problem as the Church teaches us – let us pray for the grace to understand and accept the Church’s teaching.

Suppose we all agree to say the Rosary at a given time – say, 10 AM CST tomorrow – and ask for God’s help to follow the Church.
I don’t know why you sensed any anger. I’m not angry, just pointing out a discriminatory Church policy.

You have suggested prayer as a substitute for taking action. I find this strange and I wonder if it is actually consistent with your beliefs, I wonder if you truly believe in prayer. There are certain religious people that are true believers, but most Catholics I have met are not.

If you were gravely ill, would you pray instead of going to see a physician? Would you pray for a loved one instead of taking them to the doctor? There are certain religious people that would answer yes to both of those questions.

If you are not one of those types of religious people, then you are not qualified to recommend prayer as a substitute for human action.
 
I don’t know why you sensed any anger. I’m not angry, just pointing out a discriminatory Church policy.

You have suggested prayer as a substitute for taking action. I find this strange and I wonder if it is actually consistent with your beliefs, I wonder if you truly believe in prayer. There are certain religious people that are true believers, but most Catholics I have met are not.

If you were gravely ill, would you pray instead of going to see a physician? Would you pray for a loved one instead of taking them to the doctor? There are certain religious people that would answer yes to both of those questions.

If you are not one of those types of religious people, then you are not qualified to recommend prayer as a substitute for human action.
It’s prayer and action. The Church doesn’t do pipeline theology.
 
Just because some Catholics ignore doctrine doesn’t mean that doctrine is bad doctrine.

People drink and drive, does that mean the prohibition against drinking and driving is a bad law?
You need to work on your analogies. Let me explain. There is a demonstrable correlation between drinking and driving and fatalities, so the law makes sense to follow in order to prevent deaths.

There is no evidence to show a correlation between someone’s sexual preference and his ability to be a good parent.

Actually, the fact that many Catholics do not follow some Church doctrine (like not using birth control) does actually suggest that the policy is a bit anachronistic.
 
You need to work on your analogies. Let me explain. There is a demonstrable correlation between drinking and driving and fatalities, so the law makes sense to follow in order to prevent deaths.

There is no evidence to show a correlation between someone’s sexual preference and his ability to be a good parent.

Actually, the fact that many Catholics do not follow some Church doctrine (like not using birth control) does actually suggest that the policy is a bit anachronistic.
Just because some Catholics don’t follow that policy doesn’t make it a bad policy. We have laws that make bank robbery illegal. I guess since some people try to rob banks makes it a bad law.

My point is just because some people refuse to follow laws and policies doesn’t make the law/policy bad in of itself.
 
:rolleyes:

Yes, of course, because only those Catholics who are faithful to the Church are the blind ones.

Here’s a thought: Rather than insulting faithful Catholics, why not actually try to justify your position:

You’ve made a rather bold statement. Back it up. Show us the hard data that children raised by homosexual couples aren’t disadvantaged compared to those raised by a married, heterosexual couple.

– Mark L. Chance.
You’re mising the point. The burden of proof is on the creator of the arbitrary, discriminatory policy to show that the benefits outweigh the discriminatory affect.

If I were to declare that black people or left-handed people made less suitable parents than non-blacks or right-handed people, the burden would be on me to show a correlation.

The reason for this Mark is that we want to prevent arbitrary discrimination in our society.

The fact that I’m pointing out discrimination should not be taken as an insult.
 
Just because some Catholics don’t follow that policy doesn’t make it a bad policy. We have laws that make bank robbery illegal. I guess since some people try to rob banks makes it a bad law.

My point is just because some people refuse to follow laws and policies doesn’t make the law/policy bad in of itself.
Ok fine, just because some people don’t follow some laws that does not make those laws bad. This is true, although that’s not what I’m saying so I’m not sure where that gets you.
 
You’re mising the point. The burden of proof is on the creator of the arbitrary, discriminatory policy to show that the benefits outweigh the discriminatory affect.

If I were to declare that black people or left-handed people made less suitable parents than non-blacks or right-handed people, the burden would be on me to show a correlation.

The reason for this Mark is that we want to prevent arbitrary discrimination in our society.

The fact that I’m pointing out discrimination should not be taken as an insult.
Absolutely, we should prevent arbitrary discrimination which is why the judge’s ruling should be overturned. Glad we’re in agreement. 😉
 
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