Feedback on my “breathlessly false claims” about Mary’s “Dormition” [Fr. Z]

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You are right in saying it’s not a “burning question” for Fr Z. But it should be, especially if one is an infallibilist (as I am), and I am sure Fr Z is, if not at least an ultramontane.

I propose that there is an ulterior motive for his wish to ignore the question. It raises significant issues with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. As a matter of fact, I do think that the “popular” (mis)understanding of the Immaculate Conception is indeed irreconcilable with the fact of the Theotokos’ death if one holds to a patently Augustininan anthropology that sees death as a direct consequence of the Fall.

But we know that St Thomas Aquinas had some very specific ideas about the corruptability of the body of the Theotokos. I would press interested readers to pay closer attention to the formal definition of the Immaculate Conception, especially the locus of the Theotokos’ stainlessness.
 
The fact is that “The Dormition” is the Assumption of The Immaculate Virgin Mary. Case Closed!
  • TP
 
The fact is that “The Dormition” is the Assumption of The Immaculate Virgin Mary. Case Closed!
  • TP
Not necessarily. “Dormition” comes from the Greek verb “to fall asleep”, which is a Christian euphemism for “death.” “Assumption”, from the verb “to assume”, refers to the taking up of the Mother of God into heaven. The two words are *not/-] coterminous.

Rather, they are two episodes of the same event, first the death of the Virgin (hence “Dormition”) and, days later, her being wakened from death and taken into heaven (hence “Assumption”). It just so happenes that the Latin and Byzantine liturgical tradition emphasizes different episodes of the same event.

Once again, the two words do not mean the same thing, but represent different moments of the same event.*
 
This seem to be an issue that simply exist so that people can fight over it. He believes this, but this other guys believes that. Here is the thing, OBJECTIVE REALITY. Catholicism is based on Objective Reality. God exist in Objective Reality no matter how much the athiest want to not believe. Their unbelief does not make God not exist. Jesus is the Eucharist. No matter how much the protestants want to deny it, it is real and true in Objective Reality and thus the Catholic Church teaches it.

How do we define death. If we were there to examine the Virgin Mary before she was assumed, would we say that she was alive or dead. I don’t know but we weren’t there. I will say this, no matter what we choose to believe about this topic, one or the other is the truth in Objective Reality.

I am not going to sit here and have a fight with Eastern Catholic brothers over it. I am sick and tired of postings here that only seek to drive a wedge between Latins and Greeks (or the other eastern churches that exist). We are ONE Church. ONE Holy Catholic and Apostalic Church.

I see way too many postings here that have this alterior motive. They are trying to convice Eastern Catholics who are in the ONE true Church established by Lord Jesus himself to leave. They don’t care where the Eastern Catholics go, just as long as they aren’t Catholic anymore. That is terrible.

I suspect some of this is “orthodox” who are not right believing trying to “win back” Eastern Churches from Catholicism. That is wrong. Some of it may also be Satan just wanting anyone he can get his claws on to not be Catholic. Anything But Catholic, the ABCs of the Devil.

Latin Catholicism goes back to the way things were described in Latin. Greek Catholicism refers back to the Ellenistic writtings. Two different languages being translated into English are not going to be exactly the same on the back end. The real question is, do the Latin and Greek originals agree with each other and the answer to that is YES. (I am fluent in Latin and litterate in Koine and yes I have done my reading on this issue.)

I will also say this, if you think that Latins and Greeks can argue, just take a look at Greek versus Coptic, or Coptic versus Armenian or Ethiopian. Just look at western Syriac versus eastern Syriac and you will see that we are in big trouble is all we want to do is fight. The Syriac family will divide over ONE vowel sound in One word in the Creed. That alone should make you want to pull your hair out.

I personally don’t like to think that Mary died. She may have seemed dead to those still living at the time but she is immortal living with Jesus in Heaven right now and is far more alive than any of us. I say stop arrgueing over it and let’s say an Ave Maria together.

Shlomlek Mariam
cecaritomene Maria
blagodatna Maria
cere ne Maria

(I apologize but I am still unable to speak any Ge’ez or Armenian or to really understand the script very much so I have not listed how to say Hail Mary in those languages. To be honest, I wouldn’t even now where to get that information for the Ethioptic and getting information about about Armenian takes time.)
 
“It’s the principle of the thing,” as the saying goes. The issue here is not so much as whether the Mother of God died. Rather, the issue is a fundamentally flawed theological method that refuses to take into account lex orandi, lex credendi. Enthusiasts of wdtprs.com would ignore the rule of prayer in the deep structure of the Roman Litugy (as I have frequently pointed out) as well as in the obvious statements of the Byzantine Liturgy that points to the rule of faith that Mary fell asleep in death prior to her assumption.

Moreover, enthusiasts for wdtprs.com would rather focus on the aesthetics of worship and ignore the mystagogy that it carries. This tells me that, for them, worship is something to be “enjoyed” rather than “contemplated.”

“This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Mk 7:d,e; cf. Is 29:13).
 
“It’s the principle of the thing,” as the saying goes. The issue here is not so much as whether the Mother of God died. Rather, the issue is a fundamentally flawed theological method that refuses to take into account lex orandi, lex credendi. Enthusiasts of wdtprs.com would ignore the rule of prayer in the deep structure of the Roman Litugy (as I have frequently pointed out) as well as in the obvious statements of the Byzantine Liturgy that points to the rule of faith that Mary fell asleep in death prior to her assumption.

Moreover, enthusiasts for wdtprs.com would rather focus on the aesthetics of worship and ignore the mystagogy that it carries. This tells me that, for them, worship is something to be “enjoyed” rather than “contemplated.”

“This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Mk 7:d,e; cf. Is 29:13).
Mr. Hysell,

I completely agree with you that the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos is clearly taught by Sacred Tradition, and that this is expressed not only in the East but also in the West. I also completely agree that the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos is a part of the Deposit of Faith. There is not one single argument that strongly defends a contrary belief. I obviously disagree with Fr. Z when he says that one may believe what they want concerning this teaching of our faith.

That being said I must defend Fr. Z and take you to task because you have publicly slandered him else where and you have slandered the readers of his blog on this forum.
  1. Your initial letter to Fr. Z was rude, disrespectful, and uncharitable. Your response to the comments on his blog concerning your letter was even ruder, more disrespectful, and more uncharitable.
  2. Fr. Z never denied the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos. In fact, judging by his comments and knowing his great respect for the liturgy I, personally, am inclined to think that he does not deny the Dormition. Yet, you have attacked him viciously as if were a heretic.
  3. Concerning Fr. Z, his readers, and the liturgy you said above:
"Moreover, enthusiasts for wdtprs.com would rather focus on the aesthetics of worship and ignore the mystagogy that it carries. This tells me that, for them, worship is something to be ‘enjoyed’ rather than ‘contemplated.’

‘This people honours me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’ (Mk 7:d,e; cf. Is 29:13)."

I must point out to the readers of this thread that the great majority of the people who commented on Fr. Z’s blog supported the Dormition. Furthermore, there were many who also supported that it is, in fact, a part of the Deposit of Faith and not a theologoumenon.
  1. Also conerning the above quote you exposed your prejudice in your response on Fr. Z’s blog saying:
“With regards to the acidic tone of my letter, yes, I have been lying in wait. I’m nauseated by the caustic language and biting sarcasm that is often so characteristic of the conservative party and especially of the “reform of the reform” clique (or as I prefer to
call it, the counter-reform). People such as Zuhlsdorf, Trigilio, Mother Angelica, H.E. +Fabian Bruskewitz, Fessio, and many others, have turned off so many people to an otherwise worthy cause. In a place as stupidly leftist as San Francisco, the purity of the Message has been clouded by the such styles of discourse as Fr Zuhlsdorf. Now I see that Fr Zuhlsdorf does not like the taste of his own medicine.”

It is your prejudice that makes you believe that for them liturgy is about aesthetics rather than mystagogy, and that they “would ignore the rule of prayer in the deep structure of the Roman Litugy.” The fact that, again, the great majority of the readers who commented in response to your letter agreed with you would seem to contradict the accusation that you have brought against them.

To those who have not yet read the original post and comments on Fr. Z’s blog I encourage to go there and make a more informed opinion about Fr. Z and his readers. You may find it here: wdtprs.com/blog/2008/08/feedback-on-my-breathlessly-false-claims-about-marys-dormition/#comments

Finally, Mr. Hysell, you accused Fr. Z and other “conservatives” like Mother Angelica of clouding the purity of the Message by their style of discourse. Do you really think that the acidicy of your style is less clouding and turns off less people? Look to my next post if you are unsure of the answer.

May God bless you, Mr. Hysell.

In Christ through Mary
 
As far as Father Z is concerned, this issue is just not a burning question. He quickly categorizes it as a theologoumenon and wishes to move on.
Cantor Basil,

If you are not familiar with Fr. Z’s blog he often puts his comments in red within and/or at the end of a posted article or letter. He also occassionally does this with comments people leave on his blog.

I mention this because Fr. Z made comments both in the text and at the end of the text of Mr. Hysell’s response to the comments concerning his letter. One of the things Fr. Z said was this: “had this guy been even slightly respectful, I think I would have enjoyed a longer discussion. As it stands, however, he was so rude that I don’t feel the need to spend time on him.”

Fr. Z has clearly stated that his reason for “moving on” is because of Mr. Hysell’s great disrespect and lack of charity, not because he regards the Dormition as a mere theologoumenon.

In Christ through Mary
 
I disagree with very little of what was posted by “Taboric Light.” In fact, he has proven my main point. My very simple goal was to turn the tables on Fr Z–his reaction to my post is exactly that of the religious left to his posts. As I said numerous times already, I was intentionally taking him to task on the whole “atmosphere” of the counterreform.

I have never accused Fr Z of heresy–canon law is very clear as to the question of labelling heresy; in fact it requires an ecclesiastical trial and there have been only three such heresy trials in the lat decade in the United States. I would not be in the slightest way interested–even in private conversation–in insinuating that Fr Z espouses heresy. That is not to say, however, that he seriously errs in the area of foundational theology.

Recall that he said that the Dormition is not an infallibly taught doctrine and “therefore” not within the Deposit of Faith. This is a serious misunderstanding of the dynamics of Tradition, to say nothing of the locus of the act of handing-on the faith. Moreover, simply because the Dormition has not been taught by the extraordinary magisterium does not mean that it is not infallible. The"rule of faith" consequent of the “law of prayer” does indeed enjoy ordinary infallibility. He thus harbours a very basic confusion about the dynamics of the sacred magisterium and I fear that his popularity has overrided sound doctrine. Hence my hostility to priests who are unable to perform even their first duty to preach and teach, as canon law and Vatican II so clearly and specifically mandates. I think we can all agree that the paucity of sound catechesis is one of the great challenges of the Church today. The severity of my critique is owed to the fact that Fr Z, who is right on most issues, should know better than to fail in the most basic and critical issues of theology and liturgy.

Finally, did Fr Z bother to publish my apology?
 
Mr. Hysell,

I passionately agree that “the paucity of sound catechesis is one of the great challenges of the Church today.” One subject of catechesis in which there is a great deficiency is Sacred Tradition. I feel that in practice it has been subordinated to Scripture and the Magisterium. The common attitude of many Roman Catholics that something is a theologoumenon unless it is infallibly defined by an extraordinary act of the Magisterium is symptomatic of this general attitude towards Tradition.

As for your apology to Fr. Z, I sincerely hope that he will publish it.

In Christ through Mary
 
Dear Taboric Light,

I greatly appreciate that we see eye-to-eye on the big picture that has been the subject of this forum’s debate.

As for the apology, it was sent to Fr Z over 2 weeks ago.

I failed to mention that the severity of my critique, and part of the “lying in wait”, had to do with his caricature of the U.S. Episcopate’s perception of most Catholics’ language skills and its bearing on the vote whether or not to accept the new translation of the Ordinary of Mass. The caricature included a silly paraphrase of the Agnus Dei that substituted “Boo-boo” for “sin” and so forth. He has also been insulting of Archbishop +Annibale Bugnini. The severity and harshness of my letters, which was really nothing more than a literary tool (transference) was met with rightful indignation. Fr Z’s insulting treatment of the Episcopate’s work was met with silence on his blog. (My response was not posted, either.) I find this not only puzzling, but revealing of the camp in which the readers of wdtprs.com find themselves.

If his readers took issue with my tone because he is a priest, and bishops have the fullness of Orders, then a fortiori these same people should have taken greatrer issue with his tone of disrespect to the U.S. Episcopate.

In any case, my intent was not to show disrespect to his person. And I did apologise.

Lets keep this conversation going as to how the Liturgy can be retreived in order to present the substance of the Faith for catechesis. That has been my driving concern.

All Best,
M. G. Hysell
 
I do beleive that the Latin Church at one point celebrated the Feast of the Assumption under the name of “Dormition” at one point in its history. It seems to me that it is the veiw of Sacred Tradition that she died before being assumed into heaven as Pius XII points out, the Fathers, and the Liturgies points out.
 
I do beleive that the Latin Church at one point celebrated the Feast of the Assumption under the name of “Dormition” at one point in its history. It seems to me that it is the veiw of Sacred Tradition that she died before being assumed into heaven as Pius XII points out, the Fathers, and the Liturgies points out.
I found these interesting as they’re Roman Catholic and considering the dates…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Altarpiece for a chapel in Padua, 1484
Tempera on wood
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 50.229.1

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/skanick/patmosEnthroneDormitionBonaguida_do.jpg
Detail from the left side of a diptych in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/skanick/dormitionMarble.jpg
French, second half of 15th century
Marble
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Grudzi%C4%85dz_Polyptych-Dormition_of_Mary.jpg
 
Matthew Hysell,

I rarely have time to post these days, but I found this thread too interesting to pass up. Like Fr. Z, it was always my understanding that the issue of the Blessed Virgin’s death was open to debate. What troubled me is that I could not recall why I ever concluded that - until I consulted Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

“Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)” FCD p. 207-208 (1960).

Ott sets forth the theological grade of certainty sententia communis as follows:

“Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally.” FCD p. 10.

Interestingly, Ott does not define “Sent. communior,” but the following website does:
  1. Opinions that are open to debate among experts:
Sententia communior (the more common opinion): an opinion that is usually favored over its counterpart(s) by most theologians: “Mary suffered a natural, temporal death.” iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2007/04/fundamental-theology-2-notae-theologic.html

Ott recognizes that the proposition is affirmed in Church liturgy as well as by many of the Church Fathers, yet he still concludes that it belongs to the field of free opinion. Perhaps it is because of the quote he includes from St. Epiphanius that “[n]obody knows how she departed this world.”

It appears that there is at least one well respected dogmatic theologian that disagrees with you on the issue. I will take a look at Denzinger later on to see what he has to say. Comments are appreciated.
 
I don’t place much stock in Ott, brilliant though he may be. He stands in the manualist tradition of theology, which is for the most part passe. Morever, not only is he non-magisterial, his system lacks the further clarification of infallibility defined by the Second Vatican Council. I also find his method of proof-texting Scripture and the Fathers to engender a pre-critical reading of our sources.

I’ll reiterate the point I’ve argued all along: the sacred liturgy is a monument of Tradition, and as such the Sacramentaries, breivaries, antiphonaries, graduuals, and all other liturgical text should be our “manual” of theology. Aidan Kavanagh speaks bout this in his on Liturgical Theology (available on Google Books). Moreover, the Byzantine liturgies are very clear about the fact that the Virgin Mother of God died. How we can pray one thing and believe contrary to it betrays a deeply flawed theological method. As Evagrius Ponticus said, “The man of prayer is a theologian, and the theologian is a man of prayer.” This also recalls the dictum that the law of prayer is the rule of belief, lex orandi, lex credendi. The great error of post-Tridentine theology is the separation of liturgy and doctrine, of prayer and belief.

Therefore I absolutely disagree that the question of the Mother of God’s death can be freely espoused or not. If it is in the liturgy, it follows that it is in the Deposit of Faith. Additionally, I am unaware of any magisterial pronouncement to the effect that the question of the Mother of God’s death is a nonessential and can be either adhered to or disputed.

In other words, there can be no dichotomy between liturgy and theology. And Fr Z tends to drive the wedge between the law of prayer and the rule of faith (at least episodically), which would disqualify anyone from beiting either a liturgist or a theologian.

Pax et bonum,
M. G. Hysell
 
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

With respect to ALL Catholic please note 964 to 966 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Thank you. D.

I. MARY’S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH

Wholly united with her Son . . .

964 Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. “This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death”;504 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."505

965 After her Son’s Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."506 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."507

. . . also in her Assumption

**966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509**
 
**966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: **

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509
And so we have the Church’s teaching. The priest in the original post was right to be suprised at the vigor of objections. Catholics simply are not required to believe that Mary died, only that she was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life. Next we are going to be arguing over what kind of dance the angels dance when they dance on the head of a pin.
 
And so we have the Church’s teaching. The priest in the original post was right to be suprised at the vigor of objections. Catholics simply are not required to believe that Mary died, only that she was assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life. Next we are going to be arguing over what kind of dance the angels dance when they dance on the head of a pin.
We do seem sometimes to enjoy straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
 
Catholics are obliged to believe in Mary’s Assumption so nobody can dispute that which is dogmatically declared in Munificentissimus Deus. Entire text can be read here:

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM

Whether Mary died or not is NOT a required belief. It is not a teaching (either infallibly or non-infallibly) of the Catholic Church. Catholics may belief in her death first or direct Assumption before death.

As a Catholic, though, I believe Mary did die first because although NOT a teaching, Munificentissimus Deus does give tradition and testimony from early Church Fathers who talk about the death of Mary and subsequent Assumption before her body was corrupted.
 
You’re missing point. Granted, the Dormition of the Mother of God is not dogmatic but it is indeed doctrinal. The difference between these two lies in the distinction between extraordinary infallibility and ordinary infallibility.

Everything within the Deposit of Faith is doctrinal and therefore infallible. The truth of the Mother of God’s assumption has always been an infallible belief of the Church, but the doctrine was raised to the dignity of dogma. In other words, the infallibility of the belief that Mary died has always been believed, but by an act of the ecclesia discens, the belief went from being an object of “ordinary” infallibility to that of “extraordinary” infallibility. For example, during the first three centuries of Christianity, the divinity of Christ was always believed, though not clearly, until the First Council of Nicaea (and subsequently the First Council of Constantinople in 381, the Council of Ephesus in 431, and finally the Council of Chalcedon in 451) raised the doctrine to the dignity fo doma by way of the homoousion clause. That Christ was divine was always believed, though imperfectly (e.g. Arius believed that Christ was “divine”); it took an act of the ecclesia discens to clarify the doctrine, and thus the object “divinity of Christ” became dogma (e.g. homoousion tO patri, “consubstantial with the Father”).

Similarly, the doctrine of the Assumption was raised to the dignity of dogma by a papal pronouncement (in consultation with the College of Bishops) to remove doubts and to clarify the doctrine already believed. The issue was not whether she died but whether she was raised from death. For this reason the object of Pius XII’s extraordinary magisterium was not to clarify that which was taken for granted, namely, the death of the Mother of God, but to clarify the issue of her Assumption. It is as Yves Congar wrote in Tradition and Traditions, that many doctrines are “hinted at” and “implied,” but by the Holy Spirit, the bishops are able to close the gap that exists between two points of contention. Hence Cardinal Newman’s “illative sense” in his A Grammar of Assent.

Simply because the doctrine of the Mother of God’s Dormition was not raised to the dignity of dogma does not mean that it can be freely espoused or relinquished. It is found in the Church’s liturgies, the testimony of the Fathers, and, most importantly, it is implied by St Paul’s famous text on humanity’s sentence of death in Romans, chapter 5. Not only that, but Pope Pius XII makes frequent mention of the Mother of God’s death in Munificentissiumus Deus, nos. 14, 18, 22, 26, 38, and 40. Though it is not dogmatic, it certainly is doctrinal, and therefore falls under the object of ordinary magisterium.

I’m very much alarmed that even faithful Catholics do not have a basic grasp on the “mechanics” of the Church’s teaching office, the different ranks of teaching, the distinctions between theologoumenon, doctrine, and dogma, between the different types of infallibility, and the inner workings of papal and counciliar authority. Worse yet, there seems to be a dichotomy between the sacred liturgy and the objects of faith or obsequium religiosum.

I would also argue that an object of theologoumenon can be only as such if and only if it has been expressly pronounced by the magisterium. The question of a literal interpretation of the Creation-narrative, for instance, has been declared to be in the realm of theologoumenon, and even on this point, Ludwig Ott concurs.

To recap:
  1. That Mary died is to be found in the consensus of the Fathers;
  2. That Mary died is the consistent witness of the Liturgy;
  3. That Mary died is an ordinary teaching of Munificentissumus Deus.
  4. That Mary died is not theologoumenon, but doctrine, and therefore is an object of the ordinary magisterium; and finally
  5. That Mary was assumed into heaven is an object of the extraordinary magisterium.
M. G. Hysell
 
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