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mschrank
Guest
Good luck defending yourself. SOME of these people feel oppressed by the ‘man’ so anything you do is anti-TLMism.
Oh and BTW, I attend a TLM on Sundays.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
That’s the first thing I heard regarding traditional Catholicism and racism. Another poster once commented about getting the feeling as if traditional Catholics look new people up and down as if to see if what you are wearing is appropriate. I don’t know if it’s true, but I have seen alot of posts from fashion critics on these boards and if I were to attend an Extraordinary Form mass, I would feel self conscious.
Regarding the comments that were said, they may have been misunderstood comments, but in case these people rattle your feathers again, I would read this article by Mark Brumley and throw this tidbit at them:
Regarding the comments that were said, they may have been misunderstood comments, but in case these people rattle your feathers again, I would read this article by Mark Brumley and throw this tidbit at them:
If they really hold these beliefs, they are no different than the “cafeteria Catholics” who believe that abortion is morally permissable in certain circumstances.
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Freshman88
Guest
There was nothing to suggest that the parishioners mentioned have any kind of such fantasy, so the remark was quite unnecessary. In fact as other posters pointed out it is outright offensive and judgmental to believe that just a handful of parishioners go to mass because of this.
I don’t think anyone should judge or even guess why some people go to mass, and to assume they go for anything but our Lord is unChristian.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
You prove my point I made above of why people feel self conscious. You cannot judge each individual’s reverence based on a NO mass. At parishes where the pastor does not do enough to encourage people to be reverent, people will essentially do whatever anybody else is doing. There are actually reverent people who do not display their reverence out of fear of drawing attention to themselves, keeping in mind the words of Christ: “your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”
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latinmass
Guest
With the liturgical abuses, and misinformation in the average N.O. parish, you are better off in the average TLM. There are great examples of both forms of the Mass, but in general, I would say you are better off in the average TLM for the least amount of liturgical abuse, and most informed people on Church teachings. In my experience there are many more people with far out beliefs going to the N.O., mostly out of ignorance.
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markadm
Guest
Yep, like others have said, there seem to be some nuts mixed in. Some of 'em sound right-wing to my ears (mind you, I’m a Brit, so I don’t understand American politics).
Oh, and what Tomster said!! Yes, offer it to God–not as your own suffering without hope, but rather as a particular petition of the Mass.
I think though my main piece of advice would be ignore it and ride it out: the Mass is about much more than this. And it does seem to be a sad product of our age.
Oh, and what Tomster said!! Yes, offer it to God–not as your own suffering without hope, but rather as a particular petition of the Mass.
I think though my main piece of advice would be ignore it and ride it out: the Mass is about much more than this. And it does seem to be a sad product of our age.
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lukewarm
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So start going to the Novus Ordo Mass, they are just as valid and you may find the experience more enjoyable.
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368ofk
Guest
No, some of these people respect the Mass enough to find it offensive when someone tells another poster that she’s naturally going to find people who view the Traditional Mass as a fantasy role-playing game. That simply isn’t the case.
I just ran across your post from a few days ago, where you suggest that you attended your first TLM just this past weekend. Hopefully, you will continue to attend. And, if you do, I suspect you’ll find that the TLM does not naturally attract nutjobs. Rather, you’ll likely find that it attracts a very devout group of Catholic brethren.
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mschrank
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tcraig
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My experience - as someone who was a member of an FSSP TLM parish for several years and also as someone who has attended various TLM’s in the U.S. and Europe - is that the TLM has a tendency to attract people on the far-right “extreme”.
To clarify: You know how some parishes have those really kooky out-there liberals who want female priests and gay marriage? Well, the TLM tends to attract people that also have really weird, “out there” ideas, who also want to remake the Church to conform to their personal ideology. They’re just on the opposite side of the coin. Rather than going to protest rallies for rights for illegal immigrants, they’re touting the “good ole days” of Southern rights and slavery. Been there, heard it.
That’s not to say that all TLM attendees are like that. In fact, probably most aren’t. But kooks are kooks, and TLM kooks tend to be fairly poisonous to the well-being of a parish.
My TLM parish had its share of them, but our priests managed to keep them reigned in so their damage was minimal. However, not every priests is gifted with people skills, and it looks as if your priest is allowing his parishioners to “run the show”.
Personally, I’d leave that parish.
To clarify: You know how some parishes have those really kooky out-there liberals who want female priests and gay marriage? Well, the TLM tends to attract people that also have really weird, “out there” ideas, who also want to remake the Church to conform to their personal ideology. They’re just on the opposite side of the coin. Rather than going to protest rallies for rights for illegal immigrants, they’re touting the “good ole days” of Southern rights and slavery. Been there, heard it.
That’s not to say that all TLM attendees are like that. In fact, probably most aren’t. But kooks are kooks, and TLM kooks tend to be fairly poisonous to the well-being of a parish.
My TLM parish had its share of them, but our priests managed to keep them reigned in so their damage was minimal. However, not every priests is gifted with people skills, and it looks as if your priest is allowing his parishioners to “run the show”.
Personally, I’d leave that parish.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
“The good ole’ days of Southern rights and slavery?” Just how “traditional” are these people? States’ rights are one thing but slavery is hardly something that was just abolished by Vatican II or even Vatican I. I take it they never read Paul’s Letter to Philemon? Are they so “traditonal” that they even reject this?
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mschrank
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Perhaps some people think it all went wrong with St. Paul. Seriously, there is only a tiny step from some of this extreme SSPXism to any bizarre ‘turn back the clock’ heresy.
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tcraig
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I never got the impression that *they *(meaning the parishioners)wanted to own slaves - rather they defend the fact that Southerners owned slaves and quite often romanticize the South and the institution of slavery.
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Abigail
Guest
I, too, have had some unsettling experiences with people who attend the TLM.
In addition to those who wish to return to some previous time which they perceive as ideal, and those who have difficulty with racial equality, there are not a few traditionalists who are in favor of taking away women’s right to vote and other civil rights (jury service, education, right to hold office, etc). There are some who insist that bodies be covered from head to toe in formless clothing at all time, in the name of “modesty.” There are others, frequently converts from fundamentalist protestantism, who bring all the rules of their former religion (no dancing, drinking, gambling, etc.) with them. Some feel a need to isolate themselves from everyone who doesn’t measure up to their strict standards of “holiness,” and see everyone else as a threat to their spiritual wellbeing. And then there are the conspiracy theorists – the world is being taken over by the Masons, or the One World Government, or satanists, or secularists, or whatever, and they have to hunker down in their bunkers because the end times have come…
There is more than just a sprinkling of these people among traditionalists. That being said, I vote with those who refuse to give up the field to the ignorant, unbalanced or mean-spirited. I believe Satan uses these people to cast doubts on the TLM and drive people away from it.
In addition to those who wish to return to some previous time which they perceive as ideal, and those who have difficulty with racial equality, there are not a few traditionalists who are in favor of taking away women’s right to vote and other civil rights (jury service, education, right to hold office, etc). There are some who insist that bodies be covered from head to toe in formless clothing at all time, in the name of “modesty.” There are others, frequently converts from fundamentalist protestantism, who bring all the rules of their former religion (no dancing, drinking, gambling, etc.) with them. Some feel a need to isolate themselves from everyone who doesn’t measure up to their strict standards of “holiness,” and see everyone else as a threat to their spiritual wellbeing. And then there are the conspiracy theorists – the world is being taken over by the Masons, or the One World Government, or satanists, or secularists, or whatever, and they have to hunker down in their bunkers because the end times have come…
There is more than just a sprinkling of these people among traditionalists. That being said, I vote with those who refuse to give up the field to the ignorant, unbalanced or mean-spirited. I believe Satan uses these people to cast doubts on the TLM and drive people away from it.
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Freshman88
Guest
This whole racial bit and the Traditional Mass must only be an American thing - I have never come across this.
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Freshman88
Guest
So let me get this straight - a few red necks happen to belong to this “lost cause” business and that means that they go to mass to escape?
That’s a pretty big jump.
Tell me, does anyone who goes to mass with a weird politcal/historical outlook do so to escape?
Seems like a classic case of post hoc ergo propeter hoc.
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lucybeebee
Guest
I should also mention something else that happened this week. I was looking in the local newspaper and realized that a woman from the NO parish I used to attend had died. The parish is in a predominately black area that used to be white. The woman in question was an elderly white lady who never left the neighborhood. She attended daily mass and was hit by a car a few years ago when she was walking to the parish. All this week, I’ve been thinking about her and others like her. I wondered what she must have thought when the NO was introduced and the Latin was replaced with Gospel music. If she had a problem with it, she didn’t let it be known; she just kept going to daily mass, praying the rosary, and doing the corporal and spiritual acts of mercy as she always had. Maybe the parish wasn’t the greatest in many ways (not the worst either, though), but she stuck with it her entire life. Since 1934 to be exact. I found myself wishing that I had interacted more during my time there to find out the kind of things that no catechism can teach you. And I found myself thinking, “Now that’s a REAL Catholic.”
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stmaria
Guest
Don’t worry. It doesn’t exist. This thread has turned into a Traditional bashing. If I posted the exact same thing over on Liturgy and Sacraments and accused those that go to the Ordinary Form of this, I would be banned.
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lucybeebee
Guest
In starting this thread, it wasn’t my intention to bash traditional Catholics. Obviously, in any group of people you’ll find the good, the bad, and the ugly. Despite the problems that are occuring in my parish, I don’t see myself stop going there unless something truly dramatic and scandalous occurs. Regardless of where I go in the future, I’ll always prefer the traditional prayers and novenas. I think what myself and probably some of the other posters are saying is that they don’t want to have to buy into certain beliefs to feel like they belong at a TLM. “The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven” should be for everybody, even with those with whom we disagreed vehemently with.
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