Feeling guilty about dating two girls

[EasterJoy]

If you already feel its wrong… which it seems you do, then its wrong.

Not to quibble with the rest of your post, but guilt feelings are not a inerrant guide to moral law. There are many people who think they are, and manipulative people use this to their own advantage.

Rather, guilt feelings are like a smoke alarm. Their function is to raise an alarm, not make a diagnosis. It is possible to have a fire without the alarm going off, and it is possible to have the alarm go off where there is no fire. It is very important to make this distinction, because it is not infrequent that moral law will require us to do things that make us feel guilty (because we are doing something that is right but that someone else will find hard or distasteful) and to avoid things that do not make us feel any qualms at all.

The proper guide to moral law is an informed conscience that is willing to consult those who are better-informed when prior formation is found wanting or there is a need for confirmation.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for the replies so far. I know I may need to make a decision soon. It’s not an easy decision, though. No matter which one I choose, I will most likely end up hurting the other.

Maybe. OTOH, maybe you are getting ahead of yourself, because as much as both seem to like you, it could be that neither one is ready to throw her lot in with you just yet, either.

Instead of getting exclusive with just one of them before anyone is ready for it (and especially before you are ready for it), maybe you just need to quit jumping into the kissing business quite so fast.

Again: trying talking to them, especially the one with whom you have shared a kiss. They may not be ready to be exclusive with you, either, even if they haven’t dated anyone else since their first date with you. Not having had a date is not the same as not wanting to keep that option open. If neither one wants to be exclusive with you just yet but both are interested in seeing more of you, you may want to just slow everything down with everybody. If you both decide to keep that option open, then save the exclusive behaviors for when the relatioship is at least temporarily exclusive, lest you find yourself too tempted towards behaviors that are reserved for the relationship that will be truly and permanently exclusive.

All of this depends on how long you have let this go on, but as there are no hard-and-fast rules on that, maybe you ought to find some real-time pastoral advice on this one. The truth is, you may want to just slow everything down, anyway.

 

[PatriceA]

Hey, Englishguy. I’d like to try and respond to your post or at least try.

That is an issue I have with dating or rather with the word “date” (on account of its implications of kissing in the moonlight and such stuff, as well as becoming boyfriend and girlfriend if things don’t go the wrong way within a short time-span). Just going out and having a coffee or film or dinner or a walk in the park with several different men or women is not wrong. At that stage you get to know them and you get to make your choice. It’s not that you should limit yourself to the first reasonably attractive or apparently compatible person (or both) that shows up on your path. But yes, there are constraints. There is a reason I don’t use the word ‘date’ unless maybe as a shorthand when I’m not delving into the ethical side of things.

You do but that’s when you enter into some more decided, more advanced interactions. Not necessarily physically advanced, could also be emotionally close in a way that isn’t really the same as between a brother and sister. But at the point you’re still just talking to people, even though you have marriage as your ultimate goal in mind, you’re meeting people, choosing, selecting your material. You need this part.

On the other hand, I believe that when you move on to building a relationship or some form of “benefits” (that a “just friendship” would not confer), when you would swap Valentine’s cards and stroll the lover’s lane in the evening or hold hands and look into the stars or carve initials in the tree or whatever else loving doves do, with two or more different persons, then yeah, something’s wrong there.

You don’t necessarily break the other person’s heart but yes, I do believe that a simultaneous approach to checking people out (one that does not stop at conversations over coffee or otherwise, well, conversations) is not really a great expression of human dignity or respect.

When it evolves into having something like multiple boyfriends or girlfriends until one chooses just one of them, then it’s basically building n-1 relationships that are from the very beginning meant to be temporary, to be disposed of at some point. I can’t fathom how people can think this is supposedly better than what they call “serial dating”. I believe “multiple dating” is worse than “serial dating”, at least when dating means some form of relationship.

If I were the father of a daughter, I wouldn’t exactly be thrilled to see her as the girlfriend of a guy who had some other girlfriend or girlfriends too. Obviously, a slip like the OP’s, where he wakes up and thinks, “I’m dating two girls, it seems. I need to do something about it,” is not the same thing.

For starters, it would be a good thing if the word “date” with all its implications disappeared from the asking out language if one intends to meet other people as well. I’d only use that word if the person were uniquely special to me in the romantic sense.

The above is connected with my belief that if a relationship needs to be formalised, categorised etc., it needs to be with one person. When it’s with more than one person, it should be discovering but not building or consuming. (And discovering does not include kissing. I’m not talking about mistakes here but about a general attitude.)

I have to agree with this.

There was a period of time before I met my husband that I was “testing the waters” so to speak. Having coffee or a drink with “potential” dates. I did go on one or two dates with two of them afterwards, but I was very upfront with all involved that I was NOT exclusive with anybody. And I definitely would have been upfront with the other man if I had chose to date the other past two dates.

Kissing and meeting family/friends is close if not already there, being considered a “couple” in the American dating scene as I’ve known it. There is an implied “exclusiveness”. I think after two dates with the same person, the person you are dating deserves for you to be upfront in that you want to pursue this relationship and not see other people at the same time OR you tell them you are going to see other people if the opportunity presents itself. I think to NOT discuss it with the person is being dishonest with them and with yourself. Trust and honesty is very important in building a relationship and that means being forthcoming with seeing other people at the same time if that is what you choose. Personally I don’t like seeing multiple people at the same time, it was too confusing for me, especially if I’ve met the family and friends of one of the people I’m seeing. I didn’t let any potential date meet my loved ones until I thought the relationship was becoming serious.

 

[EasterJoy]

Kissing and meeting family/friends is close if not already there, being considered a “couple” in the American dating scene as I’ve known it. There is an implied “exclusiveness”.

That depends on the circle, and how much exertion is required to either meet or evade meeting the family or the friends. If it takes a trip out of your way to meet them, consider that you’re getting serious scrutiny as a long-term prospect.

I think after two dates with the same person, the person you are dating deserves for you to be upfront in that you want to pursue this relationship and not see other people at the same time OR you tell them you are going to see other people if the opportunity presents itself. I think to NOT discuss it with the person is being dishonest with them and with yourself…

I don’t know if failing to talk is dishonest, but talking is prudent, particularly if the other person is dropping hints of long-term interest, such as proposing trips to see those in his/her circle that you wouldn’t naturally run into on her regular social rounds.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Easter Joy, thank you for your clarity. I agree that feelings are not always an indicator, however, I do take them as a warning which need to be looked into, which is what I tried to say in my post, but you clarified and elaborated much more beautifully in your post, so thanks.

Also I think your posts are wise and I agree . However, I still question what you said about moral law… To me, moral law in this matter would equate to “do onto others”… and I’m not sure multiple dating can ever be justified in this respect, unless it was made clear that the dates were not exclusive, and/or were casual get-to-know you type ordeals. I guess the OP’s case didn’t come across as such… (And to say the truth, I really don’t know what the Op’s case exactly is, I’m just going by what he has stated here. )
I only know
he needs some serious introspection on this- within himself. However, to the OP’s favor, I say he is doing well already in making the questions and seeking opinions. I wish him, the girls and his situation the grace they all need. Also, I apologize if my post came off harsh.

 

[chevalier]

That depends on the circle, and how much exertion is required to either meet or evade meeting the family or the friends. If it takes a trip out of your way to meet them, consider that you’re getting serious scrutiny as a long-term prospect.

Serious scrutiny as a long-term prospect doesn’t give you any hopes you could legitimately claim to be disappointed. That can be done when still on a friendly footing with somebody. Dependind on the circles, also ordinary male friends of a woman receive the usual rounds with family and friends, if only to introduce the guy to everybody as a friend and avoid gossip.

It’s different when things come to holding hands, kissing on the mouth, declaring love etc. I can’t fathom those things not being exclusive, not like I can’t understand that temptation to engage in those gestures recreationally (and with multiple people) could arise.

I don’t know if failing to talk is dishonest, but talking is prudent, particularly if the other person is dropping hints of long-term interest, such as proposing trips to see those in his/her circle that you wouldn’t naturally run into on her regular social rounds.

Honesty (providing information and perhaps ascertaining informed consent to the situation by all involved) feels like a secondary issue at best here, after monogamy. As in, having two kissing relationships is basically polyamory. While as long as things don’t get too sexual I can’t pin down a theological source to claim there’s a sin involved, I believe it’s unnatural, it’s basically a form of polyamory, contradicts our monogamous make-up. When I was younger, I could perhaps kiss a girl without intending a relationship but in my current views, when I’m older, the idea screams of small-scale sexual gratification to me (or at least a very physical (physiological, bio-chemical, whatever) use of the body (or at least contact with the body) of another person (lips are still a part of the body)). An abstract gesture that comes down to gratification because the pleasure associated with manifesting warm feelings was put ahead before the substance that the gesture was supposed to stand for. Perhaps I’m a soft-brained romantic and because of this I exaggerate the weight of this, maybe it’s just a trivial infraction in the moral world, but it awakens a lot of disagreement in me.

And, obviously, if no message or significance is supposed to be attached to particular gesture, then the raw pleasure aspect only becomes more dominant, clearer.

NOTE: I’m not saying this to rub salt into the OP’s wounds. I’m talking about abstract principles here, not trying to stick anything to anybody. I have my own sins under my belt myself.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy, thank you for your clarity. I agree that feelings are not always an indicator, however, I do take them as a warning which need to be looked into, which is what I tried to say in my post, but you clarified and elaborated much more beautifully in your post, so thanks.

Also I think your posts are wise and I agree . However, I still question what you said about moral law… To me, moral law in this matter would equate to “do onto others”… and I’m not sure multiple dating can ever be justified in this respect, unless it was made clear that the dates were not exclusive, and/or were casual get-to-know you type ordeals. I guess the OP’s case didn’t come across as such… (And to say the truth, I really don’t know what the Op’s case exactly is, I’m just going by what he has stated here. )
I only know
he needs some serious introspection on this- within himself. However, to the OP’s favor, I say he is doing well already in making the questions and seeking opinions. I wish him, the girls and his situation the grace they all need. Also, I apologize if my post came off harsh.

No, it didn’t come off as harsh; I am only concerned that good people who let guilt be their guide have this way of coming under the control of those who are skilled at using guilt to manipulate others. Manipulators* look* for people who can be controlled through guilt–this point can hardly be stressed too much!! How many lovely people come on this forum and report conflicts with their spouses that come down to exactly a sad story based on that kind of match? That manipulative control is almost never for the good, but rather is almost always used to achieve selfish ends, and so too often becomes the evil one masquerading as an angel of light, leading the faithful one farther and farther from the kind of behavior they ought to follow and what they ought to accept. Therefore, a Catholic needs to train himself to follow a conscience that he has made an effort to form rightly, and not be swayed by guilty feelings when they are to the contrary. That course is a vaccination against manipulators and against failures that came about because there was only feelings and good intentions as the ultimate guides.

In this case, I suppose I see the same thing as you do, but look at it in the reverse way: That is, not that some girl ought to be able to expect him to be exclusive now that he is kissing, but that he ought to back up and save the kissing for the day when being exclusive is dictated by a real and substantial progression in the degree to which the couple has gotten to know each other and see a possible future with each other.

OP, even if nobody else is waiting in the wings, don’t be in a rush to define yourself as being part of “a couple”. There will be enough time for that. It is better to give each other ample room to discern that a marriage is not advisable while it is still far from clear that the match is likely to be a good one and keep the courtship relatively easy to break off. A little discretion up front can make a world of difference.

 

[Englishguy1988]

@chevalier

No I disagree with that as if you ask someone on a date you are hoping to get to know that person well enough to hopefully decide marrige is right for you… If you just wanted to get to know them casually then have a convasation with them and discuss your beliefs, morals etc you don’t need to go on a date to get to know them as you should already have discussed these sort of things before you date

If you are dating and potentially kissing as the OP has with one of these women… Then tell me… Is it possible to kiss someone without being emotionally involved with them? And will this emotional connection being broken not emotionally affect the young woman involved?

It doesn’t matter what language he used kissing some is still going to lead to them having feeling for you whether that’s your intention or not

@Patricia
Of course you can still go out for a coffee or something but why not do that as friends why does it have to be a date… Especially if you’ve already kissed another woman (as the OP has) I feel you owe it to that woman to at least respect her enough that you don’t get emotionally involved with another (and neither should she) I personally think the OP has moved to fast with the first woman and his doubts due to not properly getting to know her is leading him to get emotionally involved with another before making a decision on the first woman which I feel is just going to lead to a tangle of emotions between them which is not going to help any of them in makng a clear decision

 

[PatriceA]

@chevalier

No I disagree with that as if you ask someone on a date you are hoping to get to know that person well enough to hopefully decide marrige is right for you… If you just wanted to get to know them casually then have a convasation with them and discuss your beliefs, morals etc you don’t need to go on a date to get to know them as you should already have discussed these sort of things before you date

If you are dating and potentially kissing as the OP has with one of these women… Then tell me… Is it possible to kiss someone without being emotionally involved with them? And will this emotional connection being broken not emotionally affect the young woman involved?

It doesn’t matter what language he used kissing some is still going to lead to them having feeling for you whether that’s your intention or not

@Patricia
Of course you can still go out for a coffee or something but why not do that as friends why does it have to be a date… Especially if you’ve already kissed another woman (as the OP has) I feel you owe it to that woman to at least respect her enough that you don’t get emotionally involved with another (and neither should she) I personally think the OP has moved to fast with the first woman and his doubts due to not properly getting to know her is leading him to get emotionally involved with another before making a decision on the first woman which I feel is just going to lead to a tangle of emotions between them which is not going to help any of them in makng a clear decision

By the way, my screen name is PatriceA, not Patricia.

Because when I was single, the coffee get togethers for me, others may approach it differently, were very, very casual dates. It usually was a way to discern for me if this was someone I wanted to see more and open myself up to dating but without all the pressures of an official first date. It wasn’t two friends just getting together, there was an implied hope that there would be a second meeting or date.

As I said though, I couldn’t not date more than one man at a time, it messed up my being able to discern God’s will for me and whom was to be my future husband. I think you and I agree on that part.

 

[chevalier]

@chevalier

No I disagree with that as if you ask someone on a date you are hoping to get to know that person well enough to hopefully decide marrige is right for you… If you just wanted to get to know them casually then have a convasation with them and discuss your beliefs, morals etc you don’t need to go on a date to get to know them as you should already have discussed these sort of things before you date

There is no disagreement between us about that one. Please understand that sometimes the word “date” is used descriptively, as a shorthand, to describe a meeting between a man and woman, presumably young peole who might be vaguely attracted to each other. When it comes to explicitly calling it a date or asking out on a “date”, then there is no need for that. So one will describe it as a “date” but in reality it might have a been a “how about meeting up for a coffee some day next week” kind of meeting.

If you are dating and potentially kissing as the OP has with one of these women… Then tell me… Is it possible to kiss someone without being emotionally involved with them? And will this emotional connection being broken not emotionally affect the young woman involved?

I’ve made it explicit that kissing etc. must be on an exclusive basis, just look at my posts above. On the other hand, when things are limited to just talking, getting to know each other etc., then there is no need to call it a date. And no room for kissing and stuff.

It doesn’t matter what language he used kissing some is still going to lead to them having feeling for you whether that’s your intention or not

Of course, again, no disagreement between us there.

 

[Englishguy1988]

PatriceA sorry about the name predictive text sometimes corrects a spelling with something else without me noticing, it wasn’t intentional.

I can see where you’re coming from but if its only very very casual then why not let them know you’d be possibly be intrested in dating them in the future but you want to get to know them first and then go out for coffee and talk as friends… Then if you click you can date if not there’s no emotional attachment as you were just friends? I just feel this would be best so you can both keep a clear mind when thinking about if there’s potential for marriage… And let’s be honest us young people aren’t exactly known for thinking clearly when you add hormones into the mix so I feel it’d be best to keep the hormones out of the decision making process especially when it could potentially end up in something as important as marriage… This is something I’ve been giving alot of serious thought to over the last few weeks and the more I think about the more I think its best if you try to keep things platonic between you until you think marriage could be a good choice with this young woman (for both of you) and then start dating but taking things slowly so as not to let her judgement, or yours for that matter, become clouded.

Yes we definately agree on this point

 

[Englishguy1988]

@chevalier

That’s slightly confusing to me… You say when you kiss someone that makes the relationship exclusive… But then you arrange to meet with another woman whom you are also intrested in so how is that exclusivity? I think you’re walking a very, very thin line here I mean ok its only meeting up with her but isn’t the fact that you are intrested in getting to know her to potentially date her when you are involved with someone else (seemingly exclusively by your explaination) tantamount to an emotional affair?

 

[PatriceA]

PatriceA sorry about the name predictive text sometimes corrects a spelling with something else without me noticing, it wasn’t intentional.

I can see where you’re coming from but if its only very very casual then why not let them know you’d be possibly be intrested in dating them in the future but you want to get to know them first and then go out for coffee and talk as friends… Then if you click you can date if not there’s no emotional attachment as you were just friends? I just feel this would be best so you can both keep a clear mind when thinking about if there’s potential for marriage… And let’s be honest us young people aren’t exactly known for thinking clearly when you add hormones into the mix so I feel it’d be best to keep the hormones out of the decision making process especially when it could potentially end up in something as important as marriage… This is something I’ve been giving alot of serious thought to over the last few weeks and the more I think about the more I think its best if you try to keep things platonic between you until you think marriage could be a good choice with this young woman (for both of you) and then start dating but taking things slowly so as not to let her judgement, or yours for that matter, become clouded.

Yes we definately agree on this point

Well first, I’m married now, a little over 14 years. And what you proposed, is exactly the way I approached my “coffee dates”, but let’s be clear, I did have male friends and still do that I meet for coffee so there needed to be a distinction in my mind at least.

Of course, all of this can be blown out the window when God’s timing is perfect and you meet the one God wants for your future spouse. I knew on my first “coffee date” with my husband I was going to marry him, not necessarily in stars exploding kind of way, but more in a gut feeling kind of way. We were engaged within 5 months of that date.

 

[chevalier]

@chevalier

That’s slightly confusing to me… You say when you kiss someone that makes the relationship exclusive… But then you arrange to meet with another woman whom you are also intrested in so how is that exclusivity? I think you’re walking a very, very thin line here I mean ok its only meeting up with her but isn’t the fact that you are intrested in getting to know her to potentially date her when you are involved with someone else (seemingly exclusively by your explaination) tantamount to an emotional affair?

I think you’re reading me wrong unless perhaps I was unclear. It’s always okay to hang out as friends or well, potential friends, rather. It’s okay to meet and examine people as potential dating prospects if you don’t have a current relationship. Once you have a relationship, then yeah, you can’t just go about meeting new girls or guys.

This is why people should generally hang out and talk without kissing. Kissing complicates life.

 

[Patavium]

Let’s put it this way, if you are going out with two girls, and you are kissing both, and you are saying I love yous to both then you went too far.

 

[PatriceA]

Let’s put it this way, if you are going out with two girls, and you are kissing both, and you are saying I love yous to both then you went too far.

“I love you” isn’t something you should be saying to anyone unless you are seriously discerning marrying them and especially if you’re not dating them exclusively.

 

[FeelingGuilty]

Let’s put it this way, if you are going out with two girls, and you are kissing both, and you are saying I love yous to both then you went too far.

I’ve only kissed one girl. I haven’t said “I love you” to either.

 

[veritate]

I’m feeling guilty about seeing two girls at the same time. One girl I’ve kissed and have met her family/friends. The other girl I have a date with in a few days, but I’ve known her for longer. However, exclusivity has not been brought up by me or by either girl. As a Catholic, at which point is the line crossed in dating multiple people? I get the impression that both likely think this is exclusive, though I could be wrong. I apologize that I can’t really go into too much details, lest they read these forums. Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

If you are feeling guilty, then it’s pretty obvious why. You are doing something wrong. If you are kissing someone romantically, you are implying exclusivity and you have already crossed a line where at least one of these girls is likely to be very hurt by your actions. Just because you haven’t actually talked about being exclusive doesn’t mean you weren’t implying it by your actions, and it’s uncharitable and deceitful to say the least.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I’m guessing you asked the second girl out because you weren’t sure about the first? Unless you decide that you do want to be in a relationship with the first girl and cancel your date with the second girl, I’m pretty sure the first girl is already going to be very hurt no matter what happens. Sadly I can say I have been on both sides of this situation, so I am speaking from experience. (That is, kissing a guy I wasn’t too sure about and then realizing pretty quickly that I really didn’t want to be in a relationship with him; he wasn’t a great guy, so it was the right choice, but I still hurt him pretty deeply, which was wrong of me no matter what kind of person he was. On the other, having a guy act very serious, and going on a lot of dates, having him kiss me on a few occasions, and then out of the blue tell me he wasn’t sure he wanted the relationship that we already seemed to be in, and cut off contact completely. That basically felt like getting kicked in the gut, and I could hardly eat for a few weeks.) Probably the best thing to do would be for you to be completely honest with both girls, and tell them you want to get to know them more, but just as friends for now. Then actually take the time to get to know them. But at some point in the near future, you have to actually make a decision. Unfortunately I don’t think there’s much you can do to avoid hurting someone at this point.

 

[thewanderer]

I’ve got to say, I’m also a little surprized at some of the responses here… I would nevver have thought of it as ok to date more than one person at a time… but then again I guess thats because I have always seen dating as implicitly showing at least some degree of exclusivity. Reading this thread I am realizing that this is not how everyon views it, and I guess I can see how it would be ok to date non-exclusively, but only if it was crystal clear to everyone involved that it is non-exclusive. Especially if kissing is involved. I’m gonna be quite honest, if I had been on a few dates with someone and we continued hanging out/dating I would automatically assume that it was an exclusive relationship. If kissing, or even some other obvious signs of affection became involved it would compound the impression of exclusivity. OP, you absolutely have to do one of the following. Either let one go and begin an exclusive relationship with the other, or talk to both of them and make sure they are both aware that you are not in a n exclusive relationship with them. You don’t have to say that you are involved with other people, but it is only fair to make sure they realize you do not yet view this as an exclusive relationship, if they are anything like me it is likely that they already assume that it is exclusive.

 

[FeelingGuilty]

It’s interesting that when I talk to my secular friends, they seem to think there’s nothing wrong with it, so long as you’re not sleeping with them. And many people here think it’s okay so long as you’re not kissing them. So is kissing the Catholic equivalent of sleeping together in secular terms?