Fellow Protestants, please help...

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Hi, I am a protestant who is very much interested in the Catholic Church yet at the same time I am hesitant because I have almost always understood the Catholic Church to be not Christian. Please help me understand these quotes from Maritn Luther. They seem to be very contradictory to what most people portray ML as. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m misinterpreting these quotes.

Thank you!
“We concede––as we must––that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and hat we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not from them?”
(Sermons on the Gospel of John chaps. 14-16 (1537), in vol. 24 of Luther’s Works [St Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961], 304)

“I never approved of a schism nor will I approve of it for all eternity…That the Roman Catholic Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted…Though nowdays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better…There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the body of unity of the body.” (letter of Martin Luther to Pope Leo , January 6, 1519, more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses; quoted by Patrick O’Hare in The Facts about Luther, 356).
If indeed these words came out of Maritn Luther, then how can I claim to be following the Truth when I am part of a movement that was not intended by the originator? These quotes are thoroughly convicting me and I am hoping there is a logical explanation for these!
 
sdenko said:
Hi, I am a protestant who is very much interested in the Catholic Church yet at the same time I am hesitant because I have almost always understood the Catholic Church to be not Christian. Please help me understand these quotes from Maritn Luther. They seem to be very contradictory to what most people portray ML as. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m misinterpreting these quotes.

Thank you!
“We concede––as we must––that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and hat we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not from them?”
(Sermons on the Gospel of John chaps. 14-16 (1537), in vol. 24 of Luther’s Works [St Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961], 304)

“I never approved of a schism nor will I approve of it for all eternity…That the Roman Catholic Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted…Though nowdays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better…There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the body of unity of the body.” (letter of Martin Luther to Pope Leo , January 6, 1519, more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses; quoted by Patrick O’Hare in The Facts about Luther, 356).
If indeed these words came out of Maritn Luther, then how can I claim to be following the Truth when I am part of a movement that was not intended by the originator? These quotes are thoroughly convicting me and I am hoping there is a logical explanation for these!
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Um. I’m sure you will get plenty of help with your question but so many of us here have been through the same struggle and ended up Catholic that you will likely not get much support from THIS crowd.

If you want to stay Protestant you would get a LOT more support over on a Protestant board. 🙂 Meanwhle, since you’re here: :tiphat: Welcome.
 
sdenko said:
Hi, I am a protestant who is very much interested in the Catholic Church yet at the same time I am hesitant because I have almost always understood the Catholic Church to be not Christian. Please help me understand these quotes from Maritn Luther. They seem to be very contradictory to what most people portray ML as. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m misinterpreting these quotes.

Thank you!
“We concede––as we must––that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and hat we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not from them?”
(Sermons on the Gospel of John chaps. 14-16 (1537), in vol. 24 of Luther’s Works [St Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961], 304)

“I never approved of a schism nor will I approve of it for all eternity…That the Roman Catholic Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted…Though nowdays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better…There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the body of unity of the body.” (letter of Martin Luther to Pope Leo , January 6, 1519, more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses; quoted by Patrick O’Hare in The Facts about Luther, 356).
If indeed these words came out of Maritn Luther, then how can I claim to be following the Truth when I am part of a movement that was not intended by the originator? These quotes are thoroughly convicting me and I am hoping there is a logical explanation for these!
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Very good. I think Martin Luther went through a long transition of his understanding and position on the Roman Catholic Church. You will be confused if you take Luther’s writings out of context from all that he wrote. If what Martin Luther believed to be true to be influencial for your decision to leave Protestantism for Roman Catholicism… I think you need to read all of his writings in proper order in his life in regards to his convictions about Roman Catholicism. I think Martin Luther and other Reformers did not leave us any doubt what their final conclusions were on the Roman Catholic Church at the end of their lives.
 
Reformed said:
I think you need to read all of his writings in proper order in his life in regards to his convictions about Roman Catholicism.
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Yes. You will need to read how Luther’s views mutated over time, as he drifted further and further away from the truth.

**“The war which the demons wage against us by means of thoughts is more severe than the war they wage by means of material things.” **
St. Maximos the Confessor
 
As a fellow Lutheran, I must agree with mercygate. You need to pose this question to a Lutheran Message board, or write to your particular synod. You are not going to get a clear or correct explanation of Lutheran Doctrine here. You will get a lot of explanations about how you are not following the “Truth”, and people jumping on you for being protestant.
 
Alix1912 said:
As a fellow Lutheran, I must agree with mercygate. You need to pose this question to a Lutheran Message board, or write to your particular synod. You are not going to get a clear or correct explanation of Lutheran Doctrine here. You will get a lot of explanations about how you are not following the “Truth”, and people jumping on you for being protestant.
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Since a lot of us started out Protestant, it always disturbs me when people jump on non-Catholics who seem actually to be asking questions and not just trying to tell us we’re saint worshiping idolaters who mindlessly follow Traditions of Men."

I would have become Catholic two decades before I did if I had met more friendly Catholics. But then, you don’t come to Catholicism because of the social life!
 
mercygate said:
Since a lot of us started out Protestant, it always disturbs me when people jump on non-Catholics who seem actually to be asking questions and not just trying to tell us we’re saint worshiping idolaters who mindlessly follow Traditions of Men."

I would have become Catholic two decades before I did if I had met more friendly Catholics. But then, you don’t come to Catholicism because of the social life!
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Are you saying your church pot lucks are not very fun?
 
Reformed said:
Are you saying your church pot lucks are not very fun?
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Actually, they ARE. Plenty of dancing, good food, even beer! But you don’t come to the Catholic Church for the social life. You come because you believe it to be true.
 
Reformed said:
LOL…we all know in part even the two “One True Churches” of Catholic and Orthodox, or East and West. 🙂
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A well grounded understanding of the Great Schism cannot possibly see the Eastern and Churches as **fundamentally **separated. There can be no comparison between the Great Schism and the kind of division that occurred in the 16th Century.
 
mercygate said:
A well grounded understanding of the Great Schism cannot possibly see the Eastern and Western Churches as **fundamentally **separated. There can be no comparison between the Great Schism and the kind of division that occurred in the 16th Century.
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Correct. But “Reformed” likes to use it as a misdirection. 😃
 
Reformed said:
If what Martin Luther believed to be true to be influencial for your decision to leave Protestantism for Roman Catholicism… I think you need to read all of his writings in proper order in his life in regards to his convictions about Roman Catholicism.
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In other words you must learn from the tradition of Martin Luthern or the Tradition handed down from the apostles.

If you read Luther’s writings then by all means read the Early Chuch Father’s to do yourself justice.
 
sdenko said:
These quotes are thoroughly convicting me and I am hoping there is a logical explanation for these!
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Martin Luther was an Augustinian priestmonk and a devout Latin Catholic. There were some legitimate abuses ocurring in the Church at the time and Martin Luther desired to reform these abuses. Sadly, Martin and the Church took hard line stances against eachother and the situation deteriorated quickly. At first, Martin held on to many of his Catholic beliefs, but as time went by, he drifted further from the Catholic doctrines and sacraments. As is so often said, he threw the baby out with the bath water.

I happen to think that his motives were noble at first, but he was carried away by deception and falsehood. Other rreformers latched on to Martin’s innovations and mutated them even further (see Calvin and Zwingli).

Do your research my friend. You will discover many interesting things. 🙂
 
sdenko said:
"We concede––as we must––that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and hat we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not from them?”(Sermons on the Gospel of John chaps. 14-16 (1537), in vol. 24 of Luther’s Works [St Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961], 304)
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Luther is simply saying that he learned about the Scriptures, Baptism, and the Pulpit, etc. from the Church of his day, in the same way the Prophets were born into a society in which the religious structure of their day was functioning, and gave the Old Testament people a religious context to live in. The visible church indeed promulgated the Scriptures and Christian doctrine. Who can deny this? But simply because they did so, does not mean the visible church in Rome infallibly declared the canon of Scripture.

For a more complete context, see: Luther: The Infallible Church Declared The Contents of Scripture?
 
sdenko said:
“I never approved of a schism nor will I approve of it for all eternity…That the Roman Catholic Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted…Though nowdays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better…There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the body of unity of the body.” (letter of Martin Luther to Pope Leo , January 6, 1519, more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses; quoted by Patrick O’Hare in The Facts about Luther, 356).
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for a context, see: Luther’s Imaginary Letter to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519

The quote as cited by O’Hare is somewhat spurious.
 
🙂
mercygate said:
Actually, they ARE. Plenty of dancing, good food, even beer! But you don’t come to the Catholic Church for the social life. You come because you believe it to be true.
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Did you know Reformed Christians drink beer too. I guess the Baptist brothers would just say that Reformed beer drinking is another hang over from Roman Catholicsm, just like infant baptism. 🙂

To my dear Baptist brothers out there, what was Jesus’ first recorded miracle?
 
TertiumQuid said:
Luther is simply saying that he learned about the Scriptures, Baptism, and the Pulpit, etc. from the Church of his day, in the same way the Prophets were born into a society in which the religious structure of their day was functioning, and gave the Old Testament people a religious context to live in. The visible church indeed promulgated the Scriptures and Christian doctrine. Who can deny this? But simply because they did so, does not mean the visible church in Rome infallibly declared the canon of Scripture.

For a more complete context, see: Luther: The Infallible Church Declared The Contents of Scripture?
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But the “visible church” DID “declare the canon of Scripture.” No “invisible church” could possibly have done such a thing. I see that you include the word “infallibly” to the proposition. Sets up the justification for judging Scripture. If there is no visible, infallible church, then the canon of Scripture is up for grabs.

I don’t mean to come across as testy, but it is a very short step from an invsible church to an invisible Bible – which is pretty much you have with the deletion of 7 books from the received canon.
 
mercygate said:
But the “visible church” DID “declare the canon of Scripture.” No “invisible church” could possibly have done such a thing. I see that you include the word “infallibly” to the proposition. Sets up the justification for judging Scripture. If there is no visible, infallible church, then the canon of Scripture is up for grabs.

I don’t mean to come across as testy, but it is a very short step from an invsible church to an invisible Bible – which is pretty much you have with the deletion of 7 books from the received canon.
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The addition or deletion of the 7 books do not change the gospel of God’s grace. 😉
 
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