Female Altar Servers at Tridentine Mass

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Ham1 said:
Hello…

I posed this question in the Altar Girls thread…

I am curious as to what the prohibition would be against girls serving at the altar in a tridentine Mass? Since the Mass is of the latin rite and governed by canon law, then wouldn’t the same diocesan rules apply no matter which liturgical text is used?

I.

Thanks!
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Canon Law regulates the use of the Sacraments, not any particular Missal.

Each of the approved Missals have their own rubrics, and each set of rubrics apply specifically to that Missal only.

The use of females as altar servers is an indult to the Roman Missal, not to the 1962 Missal.

Therefore the use of altar girls in a Tridentine Mass would be illicit without a seperate indult.
 
Ham1 said:
So, since they are under the current code of canon law, girls could serve at the altar at the bishop’s discretion. There does not seem to be a restriction to one version of the Mass over another.

Is there a document that says the indult Mass is not subject to this canon?
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The use of altar girls is not a Canon, but a disciplinary indult issued by Pope John Paul II in 1994, 11 years AFTER the current Code of Canon Law was issued.
 
But does they are still governed by current canon law, correct? They cannot be somehow under the code from 1917. So, since they are under the current code of canon law, girls could serve at the altar at the bishop’s discretion. There does not seem to be a restriction to one version of the Mass over another.
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Indeed there is.

An indult is special permission to do something different from what the law would otherwise provide. The indult Abhinc Quattuor Annos issued by Pope John Paul II in 1984–as well as various communications from the Pontifical Commission *Ecclesia Dei, *charged with overseeing the Tridentine indult–provided that those using the 1962 edition of the Roman liturgical books must abide by the rubrics, liturgical norms and kalendar in effect at that time. This precludes the use of female altar servers, whose use even today is still a discretionary matter reserved to the local bishop, as permission for such was not granted until 1994.
 
Brendan said:
The use of altar girls is not a Canon, but a disciplinary indult issued by Pope John Paul II in 1994, 11 years AFTER the current Code of Canon Law was issued.
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We have some thread overlap. But the responsum does not constitute an indult. It is an authentic interpretation, a clarification of what was promulgated in 1983.

We should probably bring the discussion in this thread since this thread was specifically created to discuss this subject.
 
That’s fine, we can discuss it seperatly.

But even so, the responsum IS the authentic interperation of Canon 230 and specifically states that no priest is obligated to accept females in service at a Mass he celebrates.

So, to your original point, it matters very little if the bishop approves the use of altar girls in a diocese, the priest saying the TLM is under no obligation to use them.
 
Brendan said:
That’s fine, we can discuss it seperatly.

But even so, the responsum IS the authentic interperation of Canon 230 and specifically states that no priest is obligated to accept females in service at a Mass he celebrates.

So, to your original point, it matters very little if the bishop approves the use of altar girls in a diocese, the priest saying the TLM is under no obligation to use them.
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Which I agree with. If you go back to every one of my posts you will not see anything where I state that a priest must use altar girls. My point was would it be licit…Not whether it has happened or should happen, but could it legitimately happen.
 
It appears I may have been wrong on a few points (in the Altar Girls thread). The first is that my faulty memory told me JPII explicitly forbade girl altar servers in 1990, which it appears may be off by 10 years and thus irrelevant, I will gladly stand corrected on that.

The more important issue, though, is this quote I ran across but cannot substantiate by consulting an actual 1962 missal:

Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 Code of Canon Law (c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform in their earlier and less radical phase.
rtforum.org/lt/lt58.html

Anyone who has access to a copy of this missal/these missals (anyone out there?) could check to see if this prohibition was a restatement of relevant canons or an actual rubrical prohibition (like the GIRM of today) which would then truly forbid girl altar servers under the indult.
 
Not being an expert by any means, I could very well be wrong in this but I will throw in my two cents worth anyway.

The Traditional Rite is allowed under very specific guidelines under the terms of the indult. For instance the rubrics of the 1962 Missale MUST be used. Nothing older, nothing newer. That is the reason that the Traditonal Masses follow the liturgical calendar in effect in 1962 rather than the calendar in use today. To do otherwise would violate the terms of the indult.

In 1962 there was no such thing as a female altar server. If you are in strict accord with the 1962 Missale, you could not have female altar servers at a Traditional Mass today… To do so would violate of the terms of the indult.
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At least that would be my spin on things.
 
There are a lot of positive points about altar girls, so I dont really see what the hubbub about it is.

The experience of young ladies engaged in altar service, might lead them to discern a calling to become readers or emhc’s when they become women.

As far as serving at Tridentine mass, I don’t see what the problem is, if the traditional Latin mass is going to survive in the long term, it will need adult participants as well in the future.

I remember the olden days myself, and I know that there were no altar girls back in my youth. But times change, a lot of folks are just making too big of a deal of this, I don’t see things changing back in these purely procedural issues
 
Kielbasi said:
There are a lot of positive points about altar girls, so I dont really see what the hubbub about it is.

The experience of young ladies engaged in altar service, might lead them to discern a calling to become readers or emhc’s when they become women.

As far as serving at Tridentine mass, I don’t see what the problem is, if the traditional Latin mass is going to survive in the long term, it will need adult participants as well in the future.

I remember the olden days myself, and I know that there were no altar girls back in my youth. But times change, a lot of folks are just making too big of a deal of this, I don’t see things changing back in these purely procedural issues
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The only thing is that readers and EMHC’s are by themselves, temporary positions. Readers exist when there is no lector , a ministry reserved to men. I’m not sure whether one can say that people have a calling to this position.

I believe in the TLM it is as it was previosuly. Altar boys take the place of those in minor orders- steps on the way to the priesthood. Currently, ever since Ministeria Quaedam, acolytes and lectors have become lay ministries, though in virtue of their link to the priesthood, they are open to men. I think it is for this reason that one can’t have girls serving at the altar in Indult Masses.

In the document De Defectibus printed at the front of every altar missal of 1962, is listed under X (Defects occuring in the Ministry), no (i) the prohibition of women to serving at the altar.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
It appears I may have been wrong on a few points (in the Altar Girls thread). The first is that my faulty memory told me JPII explicitly forbade girl altar servers in 1990, which it appears may be off by 10 years and thus irrelevant, I will gladly stand corrected on that.

The more important issue, though, is this quote I ran across but cannot substantiate by consulting an actual 1962 missal:

Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 Code of Canon Law (c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform in their earlier and less radical phase.
rtforum.org/lt/lt58.html

Anyone who has access to a copy of this missal/these missals (anyone out there?) could check to see if this prohibition was a restatement of relevant canons or an actual rubrical prohibition (like the GIRM of today) which would then truly forbid girl altar servers under the indult.
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Thanks!

This is the info I was looking for…Please let me know what you find. It would seem that if it was prohibited in the rubrics it would still apply now and if it was just a statement of the prohibition in canon law, it would not (since canon law has changed).
 
GoLatin said:
My guess is that most of the people at the Tridentine Mass are pretty conservative liturgically, and they would not want female servers. I bet that most of the women at Tridentine Masses would not even try to volunteer as servers.

But I am wondering:

Has anybody out there ever seen female servers at a Tridentine Mass?
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nope. all the altar servers at the TLM are male.
 
The very few times I have been fortunate enough to attend a TLM at St. Anthony’s in Calgary, all the altar boys are BOYS!
Actually there were also a few adult men serving. It was very reverent and beautiful. I think they had 8 altar boys both times I was there.

I can’t wait to go back, but it’s a 300 KM trip one way.
 
As a note, females did actally act as altar boys during the TLM.

But it was not as we would normally consider service.

My mother went to a convent boarding school for girls in Ireland, Certain girls, of which my mother was one, were trained in the responses normally said by the altar boys during the Mass.

These girls would remain at the Communion raill during Mass, providing the responses on behalf of the faithful that would normally be said by the altar boys.

They did not enter into the sanctuary or provide the physical assistance to the priest that an altar boy would have provided.
 
Brendan said:
As a note, females did actally act as altar boys during the TLM.

But it was not as we would normally consider service.

My mother went to a convent boarding school for girls in Ireland, Certain girls, of which my mother was one, were trained in the responses normally said by the altar boys during the Mass.

These girls would remain at the Communion raill during Mass, providing the responses on behalf of the faithful that would normally be said by the altar boys.

They did not enter into the sanctuary or provide the physical assistance to the priest that an altar boy would have provided.
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hmm. thats news to me, i guess it happens where you live, but not where we are, at least not in the church here.
 
MyPhilomena said:
hmm. thats news to me, i guess it happens where you live, but not where we are, at least not in the church here.
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From what I understand, that was also the case in most every convent.

The Mass required responses to the priest, and if there are no boys present, the responses are given by women or girls.

I believe the same was true for the choir. Convents and girls schools were allowed to have female choirs.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
It appears I may have been wrong on a few points (in the Altar Girls thread). The first is that my faulty memory told me JPII explicitly forbade girl altar servers in 1990, which it appears may be off by 10 years and thus irrelevant, I will gladly stand corrected on that.

The more important issue, though, is this quote I ran across but cannot substantiate by consulting an actual 1962 missal:

Every edition of the Roman Missal from 1570 till 1962 carried the prohibition of female altar servers, as did the 1917 Code of Canon Law (c. 813, §2), not to mention the documents of the post-conciliar liturgical reform in their earlier and less radical phase.
rtforum.org/lt/lt58.html

Anyone who has access to a copy of this missal/these missals (anyone out there?) could check to see if this prohibition was a restatement of relevant canons or an actual rubrical prohibition (like the GIRM of today) which would then truly forbid girl altar servers under the indult.
Click to expand...
It is important to note that JPII expressly forbade the institution of women to the offices of Acolyte and Lector.

These prohibitions hold true today, though women are permitted to serve on the altar, they are altar servers, not acolytes and they are permitted to read, they are readers not lectors (no matter what your individual parish lists them as in the bulletin).
 
palmas85 said:
Not being an expert by any means, I could very well be wrong in this but I will throw in my two cents worth anyway.

The Traditional Rite is allowed under very specific guidelines under the terms of the indult. For instance the rubrics of the 1962 Missale MUST be used. Nothing older, nothing newer. That is the reason that the Traditonal Masses follow the liturgical calendar in effect in 1962 rather than the calendar in use today. To do otherwise would violate the terms of the indult.

In 1962 there was no such thing as a female altar server. If you are in strict accord with the 1962 Missale, you could not have female altar servers at a Traditional Mass today… To do so would violate of the terms of the indult.
.
At least that would be my spin on things.
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I would identify the bone of contention on this issue as the fact that the indult allows worship according to the books in force in 1962. Thus if the books don’t speak to the issue, some could use that technicality as a wedge to introduce change. Although, as I said either above or somewhere else, I think TLM girl altar servers falls into the category of unmentioned no-nos like “no skipping rope in the aisles during the consecration.”
 
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