Female Altar Servers

[adrift]

Okay - I’m assuming everyone knows this, but maybe there are some who don’t.

At one time (prior to 1983) an Altar server was an instituted acolyte - an Ordained member of the clergy. Thus, “boys only” because women and girls can’t be Ordained clergy.

In 1983, a number of Clergy functions (including Altar server) were reduced to laity roles. There are now (since 1983) only three Clergy functions: Deacon, Priest, and Bishop.

I believe this is off just a bit
I think it would be more accurate to say that prior to1983 acolyte was one of the minor orders received by those who were semanarians(sp) I doubt if every altar boy was an ordainded member of the clergy In 1983, I assume, is when there was a revision and many of the minor orders were done away with on the road to ordination.

How did it become a custom to use children?

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

My personal opinion that some may not like is the sad truth of altar servers of today in some places boys dont want to bother with it when you got a xbox 360 or a playstation 2 waiting for you at home. Some parents wont bother to take there kids cuz they are either busy working or say they are too tired to take them back and forth. I am helping my nephew learn about bieng an altar boy bieng i was one once at the same parish. A few things changed but it is still a catholic church and Ill do the best i can to encourage him. Im not saying kids today are bad or the parents either but I think alot things changed the past 20 years

 

[JKirkLVNV]

That’s your take on everything, Kirk. Just because the Holy See allows something doesn’t mean we have to docilely accept it like a bunch of lobotomized sheep. Contrary to what the anti-Catholics regularly claim, we aren’t a bunch of mind-numbed robots who must accept every word that comes from Rome as if it’s the voice of Christ Himself.

“Harping” is what gave us girl altar boys in the first place, in addition to outright disobedience. Perhaps “harping” can reverse this grievous error.

I just don’t think it’s that big a deal, provided they’re not wearing bizarre shoes and they’ve managed to do something not too distracting with their hair.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

I just don’t think it’s that big a deal, provided they’re not wearing bizarre shoes and they’ve managed to do something not too distracting with their hair.

Bah. Ever heard the expression, “Fiddling while Rome burns” Kirk?

The Church crumbles but as long as everyone wears sensible shoes, Kirk is ok. Lovely.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Bah. Ever heard the expression, “Fiddling while Rome burns” Kirk?

The Church crumbles but as long as everyone wears sensible shoes, Kirk is ok. Lovely.

The Church can’t crumble. And sensible shoes are always a good idea.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

Bah. Ever heard the expression, “Fiddling while Rome burns” Kirk?

The Church crumbles but as long as everyone wears sensible shoes, Kirk is ok. Lovely.

Lol, My great great great great great great great great grandfather bought my indulgence ticket to heaven already so good luck folks. I know i will wear my nice shoes.

I meen that in good humor folks no need to get angry or philisophical on me

 

[jmcrae]

I believe this is off just a bit
I think it would be more accurate to say that prior to1983 acolyte was one of the minor orders received by those who were semanarians(sp) I doubt if every altar boy was an ordainded member of the clergy In 1983, I assume, is when there was a revision and many of the minor orders were done away with on the road to ordination.

How did it become a custom to use children?

Because at one time, that’s when people entered Seminary.

In fact, both of our current priests at our parish entered Seminary when they were young kids.

Yes you are right: “minor orders” - with a definite view toward the priesthood; it was not a lay function.

 

[jmcrae]

Bah. Ever heard the expression, “Fiddling while Rome burns” Kirk?

So, baptized Catholic girls are now Visigoths?

By the way, you never did answer my question.

 

[EBSSTF4]

Some women serve as “pastors” of Catholic parishes. They are responsible for running the parish, with a priest available to do the Sacraments. I could go on and on.

How would she be considered a “pastor”.

 

[EBSSTF4]

Some women serve as “pastors” of Catholic parishes. They are responsible for running the parish, with a priest available to do the Sacraments…

How would she be considered a “pastor”

A pastor is by deffinition a Priest. A Priest is required for the Sacraments. The Pastor always has final say. Big differance from a business manager.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

It was well know that wealthy women provided their homes for the early Christians to celebrate Mass. Mass was not in Latin. People stood around the altar. Some like to pick and chose the traditions that they want to remember.

Read Mediator Dei. We are not to resurrect little “t” traditions indiscriminately from the Early Church, so all of that is irrelevant.

Mass in homes? Yes, because it was that or catacombs or other secret places. Why? Because if you gathered as some grand basilica type building, the pagans would kill you. Do we have to worry about that now? Not really, at least in the 1st World.

Mass was not in Latin? Yes, it was in Greek. It was changed to Latin many centuries ago, over a thousand years mind you. Latin has the weight of antiquity, I do believe. To say that Latin is irrelevant in today’s world, and then to say that they didn’t always use Latin is a red herring. The Roman church used Greek for a couple hundred years or so and Latin for better than a thousand.

People stood around the altar? Do you have any real proof for that, other than in instances of necessity (i.e. during the persecutions)? I just read, “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy” by Msg. Klaus Gamber. What an eye-opener. The people didn’t stand around the altar like modernists want you to believe in order for them to be able to ruin traditional sanctuaries and replace them with “worship space”. Its all propaganda.

Yes you are right: “minor orders” - with a definite view toward the priesthood; it was not a lay function.

A simple altar boy was not enrolled in minor orders. They merely help the priest. The order of acolyte is different from simple altar boy, despite the fact that some parishes call their altar servers “acolytes”. It is a misnomer.

The reason for altar boys? Simply because you don’t have a deacon and subdeacon along with seminarians in minor orders at every little parish throughout the whole world. The altar boy does the simple tasks that are “intended” to be done by men in orders.

Service at the Altar was reduced to a laity role in 1983.

This is incorrect as I’ve pointed out above. The Vatican merely gave an official “OK, I suppose” to an abuse that had been going on before, kind of like Communion in the hand.

If you read the actual wording of the document that allows this, the Vatican emphasizes that it prefers boys and men to serve at the altar and that it is merely allowing women and girls to do so.

 

[jmcrae]

This is incorrect as I’ve pointed out above. The Vatican merely gave an official “OK, I suppose” to an abuse that had been going on before, kind of like Communion in the hand.

If the Vatican says it’s okay, then it’s okay. I doubt that anyone in all of history has ever been able to “bully” them into anything, least of all the fewer than 2% of Catholic who live in North America, and don’t even speak Italian or Latin, for the most part. Any “screaming” we did was pure gibberish, from their point of view.

Anyway, I figure if a little girl’s love for Jesus and the Mass has the power to “burn down Rome” then the gates of Hell have prevailed, indeed - long before she ever came along - and it was way overdue for the wrecking ball, anyway.

 

[Magnanimity]

Here’s what the 2004 Instruction Redemtionis Sacramentum has to say on the subject:

“47. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.”

Hope that helps.

Thank you. You are very kind to post this. Unfortunately, it doesn’t help in what I’m looking for. I posted above that the “what” I already know. Namely, that female altar servers is permissible. However, I’m looking for the “why,” and this line above presumes to give no such reasons. In fact, it’s ironic that immediately prior to this addendum on femal altar servers, the text gives the several reasons why having boy (and adolescent) altar servers is such a good idea–many which reasons could not apply to females, since they will never be ordained. Maybe I should follow the references in footnote 122 in the text? Of course, I wouldn’t know how to find those documents, but I suspect they go into some of the arguments.

Darn! I thought this information would be relatively easy to obtain. Oh well…

 

[adrift]

Read Mediator Dei.

Service at the Altar was reduced to a laity role in 1983

The document he is referring to is different than the one you refer to.

The 1983 date is when there was a revision of the minor orders.
From the Catholic Encylopedianewadvent.org/cathen/11279a.htm

Though nothing has been defined with regard to the number of orders it is usually given as seven: priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, exorcists, readers, and doorkeepers. The priesthood is thus counted as including bishops; if the latter be numbered separately we have eight; and if we add first tonsure, which was at one time regarded as an order, we have nine.

Of Course, this article was written in 1913 before the revisions.

 

[adrift]

Darn! I thought this information would be relatively easy to obtain. Oh well…

It isn’t simple is it

I found the following on Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altar_boys

Jean Gallarello, an ambitious adolescent girl in the early seventies, brought the topic to national prominence through her insistence that girls be offered the same opportunity to serve in the Catholic Church as boys, even going so far as to write the pope. It has been approved by the church hierarchy widely since 1994 (it remained officially forbidden, but not sanctioned beforehand), but many faithful nonetheless have not liked it, and traditional Catholics reject the idea outright.

I never knew this before and it makes your question even more relevant.

 

[LeahInancsi]

Hot topic! I had a thread going last week on this very subject and it went to two pages.

The very last post was by a young man who gave me the impression that some boys are teased by their friends for being altar servers. That’s why many boys don’t want to do it.

My personal opinion is that if girls weren’t allowed to be servers, the priests would be holding their own books when reading prayers, etc.

 

[Lynn-D]

I am not one to be blasphemous but I too have always wondered why it was proper for two women to not only serve at the last supper/first mass but also to share in the event.

Not only that but they also were there to not only witness Jesus being taken down from the cross but also to bath and swaddle Him in clean cloth for burial.

Where were the men who shared in the last supper when that was being done I might ask?

Then who might I ask were the first witness’ to the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead?

Now the discussion is relegated to a woman’s place on the altar when instead I think it should be why are women now denied the joy of saying mass as are men?

 

[Magnanimity]

Now the discussion is relegated to a woman’s place on the altar when instead I think it should be why are women now denied the joy of saying mass as are men?

I thought I’d link you to 3 documents that, it seems to me, have the most relevance to your concern. They were all written by Pope John Paul II. They are:

1. )(1988) Apostolic Letter on the Dignity and Vocation of Women (mulieris dignitatem
2. )(1994) Apostolic Letter on Priestly Ordination (ordinatio sacerdotalis
3. (1995) Letter to Women

Of course, I guess the one on priestly ordination is the most relevant, but I thought you’d like to read (or peruse) the other 2 as well. The “Letter to Women” and the Apostolic Letter on “Priestly Ordination” are both quite short and very accessible, if you’re looking to begin with just a quick read.

Below are some of my favorite clips from Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter on “Priestly Ordination,” which are very relevant to your concern over female ordination.

First, he quotes Pope Paul VI, his immediate predecessor, who had to deal with the same issue because the Anglican church was deciding whether to ordain women. Here is the quote from Paul VI, which John Paul II includes in the Apostolic Letter:
“She [the Church] holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.”
Another great reason Pope John Paul II quotes is:
“the Church ‘does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination.’” (quoting a document ordered to be published under Pope Paul VI)
In other words, even if a pope wanted to ordain women (just personally wanted it), the Magisterium does not feel that it even has the authority to do so. It has not been given that authority by Christ.

But, perhaps one of my favorite arguments coming from this same document on “Priestly Formation,” and which is original to Pope John Paul II (not just a quote of something else) is this:
“3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.”
I think that is such a great argument. It’s almost like a trump card. How does one argue against that?

But, Pope John Paul II, in closing the document on “Priestly Ordination” is absolutely unambiguous in the matter. I invite you to visit the document at vatican.va and read it for yourself just to confirm the strength of the following quote (and that I’m not misquoting him for effect). He writes,
"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful."
I honestly would have a hard time seeing how any priest (or any other of the Catholic faithful) could possibly argue against that.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

If the Vatican says it’s okay, then it’s okay.

We aren’t arguing over that. I’m not saying having girl altar servers is heresy.

I doubt that anyone in all of history has ever been able to “bully” them into anything, least of all the fewer than 2% of Catholic who live in North America, and don’t even speak Italian or Latin, for the most part. Any “screaming” we did was pure gibberish, from their point of view.

Then you haven’t read much history. The Church is protected from being overcome by the gates of hell, not from stupid disciplinary decisions or pontiffs with bad judgment on said matters.

Also, I don’t think you quite get it. Have you ever heard, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease”? Why was this approved when only a few years earlier the Vatican issued a document denying approval? Because enough “progressives” (clergy included) whined and complained and said that having women do more in the sanctuary was good from a “pastoral” view, etc.

Anyway, I figure if a little girl’s love for Jesus and the Mass has the power to “burn down Rome” then the gates of Hell have prevailed, indeed - long before she ever came along - and it was way overdue for the wrecking ball, anyway.

It has nothing to do with “a little girl’s love for Jesus and the Mass”-but it does have everything to do with feminists and progressives thinking that we have to keep that “spirit of Vatican II” alive with all of its myriad innovations. Also, people who want to see women “ordained” usually see having “altar girls” as a first step in the “right” direction. Do a search on “women’s ordination” and read some of the crazy things they write. Women who for some reason think they have a “calling” to the priesthood usually say that they wished they could serve Mass too, but the big bad hierarchial/paternalistic Church wouldn’t let them. Boo hoo.

Now the discussion is relegated to a woman’s place on the altar when instead I think it should be why are women now denied the joy of saying mass as are men?

And now we have someone advocating priestesses! Sheesh!

From Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, an Apostolic Letter issued by Pope John Paul II-

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

 

[TimOliv]

We will have to agree to disagree.EBSSTF4 identified a real tradition to show that there is a reference in our history to women serving. It was well know that wealthy women provided their homes for the early Christians to celebrate Mass. Mass was not in Latin. People stood around the altar. Some like to pick and chose the traditions that they want to remember. No need to go into ordination of women. Nobody said that. Women altar servers serve at the altar in churches in Rome. Just like old times.

Once again, I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree. Offering your home to early christians for the celebration is mass does not constitute serving the altar.

Even under Jewish law in the time of Jesus women were permitted to own property (namely through inheritance), that did not mean that prayer would have been mixed gender as such a practice was not observed during this time. Saying that while using their homes the women were permitted to serve on the altar is speculation. My point is we cannot change tradition based on speculation.