Female Altar Servers

[Magnanimity]

Sure, everybody can state their own opinion on these boards, but some subjects have been rehashed and rehashed to the point of being ridiculous. As far as I’m concerned, if the Vatican says it’s OK, that’s all I need.

Very well! I should hope that not everybody in the Church is genuinely trying to move the Church foward in the best understanding of doctrine and/or practice. That’s certainly not everyone’s place. Plenty of people within the Church should feel perfectly at ease not trying to contribute and hash out these various issues.

However, that being said, it must also be pointed out that it is not reasonable, to say nothing of being unkind, to try to compel everyone to be just like such a Catholic person at ease with everything. Some do feel called to contribute to the larger discussions. Some (not many, I think) feel this calling in the area of theology and the genuine progression of dogma. Most of these individuals are theologians. Others (and there very well may be many here) feel compelled to contribute in the conversations regarding the Church’s practice and what is the best course for Her to be taking on given issues.

Rome has spoken rather emphatically, if not dogmatically, that women will never be ordained to the priesthood. So, that is settled in the great majority of Catholic minds. That is a theological issue, however. It could not possibly be argued with any success that that issue is the same as the practical issue of whether it is sensible to have female altar servers. Dogma and practice must not be conflated with one another and put on a par, as if they are qualitatively the same types of discussions. They are dramatically different in a few important respects.

For one, dogma unfolds over time. Dogmas previously declared such are not recanted later. Merely, a better understanding of that dogma is achieved later. However, with practice, it is often the case that what is actually happening now may easily be overturned later.

Take the Easter Vigil, for example. Do you know that prior to Pope Pius XII the Easter *Vigil *was often celebrated on the saturday morning before Easter Sunday? The Vigil was in the morning? But, that was a practice that could use some alteration, and now we see it better what should be done. As easily as not, in 50 years the Vatican may say that the only persons allowed to serve at the altar are single men in discernment for the priesthood. There is absolutely nothing to prevent such a thing from happening.

Therefore, this, as any other practical matter in the Church, is open for debate. You may not wish to debate it, but then no one would tell you that you should wish to. You may wish to take the position that you simply go with whatever Rome says whenever She says it on any issue whatsoever, be it theological, moral, or practical. But, of course why should what you do entail anything with regard to the behavior of your fellow Catholics?

 

[LeahInancsi]

I don’t mind that the same subjects are hashed and rehashed. The problem I have is that so many people cannot accept Vatican II or the bishop or priest’s ability to make discretional changes in practice.

Not too long ago I started a thread asking for suggestions for a blessing to give as an EMHC. I didn’t get one syllable of positive feedback, but only criticisim of my priest. I dare anyone on this board to go toe to toe with my priest any day of the week. I have complete confidence in him. After this experience, I wrote to him asking for clarification about lay blessings. He gave me a very thorough explanation of the history up to present day practice. My conclusion is that many of the “so called” authorities on this forum are stuck in the past.

 

[plato3]

 

[paramedicgirl]

I don’t mind that the same subjects are hashed and rehashed. The problem I have is that so many people cannot accept Vatican II or the bishop or priest’s ability to make discretional changes in practice.

Not too long ago I started a thread asking for suggestions for a blessing to give as an EMHC. I didn’t get one syllable of positive feedback, but only criticisim of my priest. I dare anyone on this board to go toe to toe with my priest any day of the week. I have complete confidence in him. After this experience, I wrote to him asking for clarification about lay blessings. He gave me a very thorough explanation of the history up to present day practice. My conclusion is that many of the “so called” authorities on this forum are stuck in the past.

It’s not that people have a hard time accepting Vatican II, it’s the misinterpretation and wrong applications that people have applied to the documents of Vatican II, from what I understand.

 

[LeahInancsi]

It’s not that people have a hard time accepting Vatican II, it’s the misinterpretation and wrong applications that people have applied to the documents of Vatican II, from what I understand.

I think it’s both.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

The problem I have is that so many people cannot accept Vatican II or the bishop or priest’s ability to make discretional changes in practice.

Some folks can’t accept Vatican II, but I think that those of us who do just don’t follow what some “experts” say it means. Vatican II was not “Out with the old, in with the new” like some folks seem to think it is, but it doesn’t help when its documents are saturated with allowances and exceptions that can be read in a practically anything goes way.

Secondly, I thought that was the problem with the traditionalists-that we can’t seem to think for ourselves but slavishly follow the stuffy aristocratic European Hierarchy like automatons or on a local level, take the priest’s word as Gospel truth.

 

[jmcrae]

At many (too many) churches the selection and training of altar servers has been delegated to lay persons. This means the priest has pretty much no hand in their formation. I would suspect that having, say, a woman from the altar and rosary society who has never served a mass training the altar servers could indeed be part of the problem.

They train each other, actually - they have a “Captain” who is a kid of about 13-14 years of age, who’s been doing it since he was seven, and this kid is in charge of the training - but it’s the priest who writes the schedule, and if an Altar server isn’t doing the job correctly, the priest is the one who speaks to the kid about it, and takes him or her off the schedule if the problem can’t be solved.

If an Altar server becomes confused during Mass, if necessary, the priest will direct them then, as well, although usually an older Altar server will catch the younger kid’s error and correct it quickly enough.

We have a Sacristan who gets after them, as well, especially if he catches them chewing gum or behaving irreverently - I remember one time coming back to the Sacristy to put something away, to find him lecturing the kids on proper deportment at Mass. Girls need to hear that stuff just as much as boys do.

 

[paramedicgirl]

They train each other, actually - they have a “Captain” who is a kid of about 13-14 years of age, who’s been doing it since he was seven, and this kid is in charge of the training - but it’s the priest who writes the schedule, and if an Altar server isn’t doing the job correctly, the priest is the one who speaks to the kid about it, and takes him or her off the schedule if the problem can’t be solved.

If an Altar server becomes confused during Mass, if necessary, the priest will direct them then, as well, although usually an older Altar server will catch the younger kid’s error and correct it quickly enough.

We have a Sacristan who gets after them, as well, especially if he catches them chewing gum or behaving irreverently - I remember one time coming back to the Sacristy to put something away, to find him lecturing the kids on proper deportment at Mass. Girls need to hear that stuff just as much as boys do.

The method you outlined is not the norm for every parish, though. We have a female lay person who trains the altar servers, and when they hold practices, the priest isn’t even necessarily there. We don’t even have any older kids serving, and they don’t participate in the training process. I don’t see much priest involvement at all in the formation of our altar servers at all. And that’s a pity. But now, with a new priest, maybe that will change.

 

[whatevergirl]

And I would still like an answer to my question.

How many men from your parish are in the seminary right now, and how many women are in the process of professing to religious life?

I there are two actually…and one from last year. (I have a small parish) And, there are around 30 from the Pittsburgh Diocese…maybe there’d be 100 if there weren’t so many doggone female altar servers.

If this question is to me, there is no correlation…If you think that having altar servers that are female, is reducing the males entering priesthood…I don’t know what to say…that is just funny, to me.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t mind that the same subjects are hashed and rehashed. The problem I have is that so many people cannot accept Vatican II or the bishop or priest’s ability to make discretional changes in practice.

Not too long ago I started a thread asking for suggestions for a blessing to give as an EMHC. I didn’t get one syllable of positive feedback, but only criticisim of my priest. I dare anyone on this board to go toe to toe with my priest any day of the week. I have complete confidence in him. After this experience, I wrote to him asking for clarification about lay blessings. He gave me a very thorough explanation of the history up to present day practice. My conclusion is that many of the “so called” authorities on this forum are stuck in the past.

THANK YOU…AMEN TO THAT!

 

[jmcrae]

THANK YOU…AMEN TO THAT!

Ditto.

Someone very wise once (I think it was Father Kenny) wrote that we are bound by the current disciplines of the Church - not the disciplines of yesterday, and not the (hypothetical) disciplines of tomorrow.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

No one is saying it is heretical. No one is saying it can’t be done.

However, it is only allowed and a pastor doesn’t have to have girl altar servers if he doesn’t want to. So basically it is something that is merely allowed-not commanded, not encouraged-allowed.

Furthermore, all present discipline must be in line with the past. Nothing should be just “created” inorganically.

From a letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship-http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4059

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See, such an authorization may not in any way exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (circular letter, 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, **not least of all due to the wellknown assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial ***in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.).

With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the nonordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the sacred pastors (cf. circular letter, 4; cf. also Canon 228.1; interdicasterial instruction “Ecclesiae de Mysterio,” Aug. 15, 1997, 4; see Notitia 34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.

Having thus confirmed and further clarified the contents of its previous response to Your Excellency, this dicastery wishes to assure you of its gratitude for the opportunity to elaborate further upon this question and that it considers this present letter to be normative.

With every good wish and kind regard, I am, sincerely yours in Christ.

Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez prefect

Msgr. Mario Marini undersecretary

Seems like the Congregation thinks that being an altar boy is a stepping stone to a possible vocation. It doesn’t seem that girl altar servers are supposed to resemble any sort of norm whatsoever. Kinda like EMHC-they are supposed to be extraordinary.

 

[palmas85]

As I have not had time to read all of the responses I don’t know if the question about serving Mass at Convents was answered. So I will answer it at least from my own experienec.

Most sisters, non cloistered would either attend Mass at the Parish Church or in a Chapel in the Convent. At the chapel the normal procedure was for a Priest and one altar boy to be assigned, If no server was available you could have one of the sisters or all of themsay the appropriate responses. Remember the dialogue Mass was quite often an option in these type of things.

At a cloistered convent there was normally a chapel attached to the convent, we had two of them in New Orleans. There was a grill that separated the sisters from the Chapel. The priest and one altar boy would normally be assigned. The sisters received Holy Communion through a slot in the grill. The made their confessions the same way. If no server was available, normally all the sisters would make the responses, often by singing them. Very beautiful things.

I served at many such Masses in the late 50’s and early 60’s.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

I also was not able to read all responses but at the church I go to for daily mass they typically have female adult alter servers…who also act as EMHC, reader and sacristan. Mass is at 12:10pm with no school nearby.

 

[Brendan]

I there are two actually…and one from last year. (I have a small parish)

Same here, our parish is about 800 families

If this question is to me, there is no correlation…

Do, then, disagree with the statements provided by Pope John Paul and Cardinal Estevezon the subject?

The both seem convinced that the use of altar BOYS drive vocations.

 

[chotock]

As I have not had time to read all of the responses I don’t know if the question about serving Mass at Convents was answered. So I will answer it at least from my own experienec.

Most sisters, non cloistered would either attend Mass at the Parish Church or in a Chapel in the Convent. At the chapel the normal procedure was for a Priest and one altar boy to be assigned, If no server was available you could have one of the sisters or all of themsay the appropriate responses. Remember the dialogue Mass was quite often an option in these type of things.

At a cloistered convent there was normally a chapel attached to the convent, we had two of them in New Orleans. There was a grill that separated the sisters from the Chapel. The priest and one altar boy would normally be assigned. The sisters received Holy Communion through a slot in the grill. The made their confessions the same way. If no server was available, normally all the sisters would make the responses, often by singing them. Very beautiful things.

I served at many such Masses in the late 50’s and early 60’s.

thanks

 

[whatevergirl]

Same here, our parish is about 800 families

Do, then, disagree with the statements provided by Pope John Paul and Cardinal Estevezon the subject?

The both seem convinced that the use of altar BOYS drive vocations.

why isn’t this enforced then?

 

[Brendan]

why isn’t this enforced then?

I look at the model of last weeks Gospel.

Christ said that He allowed Moses to permit divorce due to the ‘hardness of their hearts’. Of course, that meant the loss of the Sacramental Nature of Marriage, but the Isrealites prefered that loss so that they could be able to divorce.

In many ways, the example is the same. For many years prior to 1994, certain pastors decided to allow girls to serve at the altar. This was in direct disobedience to the Holy Father.

But they did so anyway out of some misguided concept of ‘equality’ in liturgucal roles.

So, in 1994, the Holy Father issued his Circular Letter, allowing this practice, but at the same time, in the same letter, he let them know specifically on what they would be missing out on by allowing this.

 

[PaulusRobertus]

I think it’s not a good idea…

 

[palmas85]

Just from what I see a lot of altar servers do these days, sit around looking bored most of the time, I am tempted to say there is no real reason for them anymore. The Priest really doesn’t need someone to hold the book of prayers, the gifts could easily be brought all the way into the sanctuary by the bearers and given the fact that the priest is considered merely someone presiding over the celebration rather than one re-presenting the Holy Sacrifice, he could certainly pick up the cruets and hosts himself.

I mean lets get serious about this, the main reason for the altar servers in the first place was to make the responses. You don’t need them for that anymore. So maybe at least in the Pauline Mass they are an institution whose time has passed.