Female Genital Cutting?

[Woodstock]

we can’t just blame the men for this problem. the women too, are often involved in making certain that their daughters have this done. its the culture that is at fault.

As someone else hinted at above, this is very similar to the Chinese practice of footbinding. It was most often the mothers who caused this terrible mutilation and pain, inflicting it on their young daughters as their mothers had done to them. It is hard to go in and say that this practice is wrong because then you tell the women that everything they and their mothers suffered through was wrong. They become the outcasts for having small feet or mutilated genitalia when the only reason they did it in the first place was to succumb to peer pressure.

The mothers want the very best for their daughters, and in this culture it means doing this. I saw an interesting chart a while back that compared footbinding to breast implants, as someone did above.

There is hope. The thousands-of-years-old history of footbinding was completely overturned in a single generation in China through education.

 

[Nepenthe]

male circumcision does not compare as it does not prevent a male from enjoying the sexual experience. it is certainly not done with the intent that it will assist males in remaining chaste. there is even some evidence-although i don’t know how reliable-that male circumcision might play a factor in preventing aids.

if you want to compare unneccesary mutilation then breast implants would be a better comparision. both operations are done with the intent to make the female more pleasing to the male.

You’re correct in that male circumcision is not comparable. A closer analogy for males would be a complete glansectomy. Female genital mutilation should never be referred to as “circumcision”.

Breast implants (and by extension reductions too) don’t compare at all. How often is a clitoris hacked off with a broken bottle with the aim of improving a woman’s self-esteem? How often is it done with her informed consent and desire to undergo the procedure? How often does a little girl ask for her genitalia to be lopped off?

If you want a comparison, how about this: electing not to vaccinate children against cervical cancer because it “might encourage promiscuity”? In the same way, it’s sacrificing a child’s health for the agenda of the parents.

It’s also important to remember that clitoridectomy has been common in the West as well; it isn’t just an African or Asian thing by any means. Any sign of female interest in or enjoyment of sex was considered gravely disordered (as in, against ‘natural law’) until very recently, and in the 1800’s-early 1900’s, clitoridectomy was ‘the cure.’. I’m sure many women here remember when the female orgasm’s existence was actually controversial!

And the scariest part? We’re still doing it.

 

[seekerz]

There is hope. The thousands-of-years-old history of footbinding was completely overturned in a single generation in China through education.

I think that ‘education’ was probably more a shove than a gentle push, if you know what I mean…

Bride-burning is reported to be still happening occasionally in India despite much protesting to the contrary from the authorities and slavery has never been completely abolished from our world.

Across time and cultures it’s very true of the human race that old habits die hard.

 

[BelFarfalla]

But if the woman can remove it and reinsert it, it wouldn’t provide proof that she was a virgin, also how long do they last? bearing in mind this process is often forced on very young girls.
Also, as pointed out in the second link, in the case of rape, particularly group rape, the initial pain would be overcome by rage and the girl would probably be killed. Or perhaps even severely punished when her people discover the device missing. They may not believe her story of rape.

There are problems with the South African thing. I just thought it was a view into the strangeness of this topic… and how far some will go.

In the case of chastity belts, the idea is for the female to not have a key or the ability to remove it.

Last year there was some news about women in northern Europe using chastity belts because the of huge rise in rapes. I don’t think that normal chastity belts would insight violence from a rapist the way that thing from South Africa might.

The topic is so sick… FGM, etc.

 

[BelFarfalla]

i don’t know about this device. if it broke, perhaps it could harm the woman.

I wondered about that too.

 

[deb1]

You’re correct in that male circumcision is not comparable. A closer analogy for males would be a complete glansectomy. Female genital mutilation should never be referred to as “circumcision”.

Breast implants (and by extension reductions too) don’t compare at all. How often is a clitoris hacked off with a broken bottle with the aim of improving a woman’s self-esteem? How often is it done with her informed consent and desire to undergo the procedure? How often does a little girl ask for her genitalia to be lopped off?

If you want a comparison, how about this: electing not to vaccinate children against cervical cancer because it “might encourage promiscuity”? In the same way, it’s sacrificing a child’s health for the agenda of the parents.

It’s also important to remember that clitoridectomy has been common in the West as well; it isn’t just an African or Asian thing by any means. Any sign of female interest in or enjoyment of sex was considered gravely disordered (as in, against ‘natural law’) until very recently, and in the 1800’s-early 1900’s, clitoridectomy was ‘the cure.’. I’m sure many women here remember when the female orgasm’s existence was actually controversial!

And the scariest part? We’re still doing it.

mmm…i see your point about breast implants not being comparable. i was thinking that implants are a mutilation done to please and attract males. let’s face it, breast that have those disc in them don’t actually look like breast anymore but yes, i understand what you are saying.

i don’t know if everyone in the past believed that female orgasims were bad. my grandmother’s Victorian midwife mother believed that a woman couldn’t get pregnant without an orgasm. granted my grandmother’s family was very rural, so perhaps it wasn’t believed in more educated circles.

also, i was under the impression that massage aids were invented to assist Victorian doctors in providing nervous female patients with relief through orgasms. maybe that is a urbane myth though.

the fact that i have this sort of info ruminating in my brain is probably not healthy. i only mention this because i don’t think that all people of the 1800s and early 1900swere as repressed about sex as we younger people like to assume.

 

[LDNCatholic]

OK well its 4am over at this side of the pond so I’ll have to leave the debate at this point. Hopefully it will still be going strong when I’m back
God Bless,
Peter

 

[seekerz]

If you want a comparison, how about this: electing not to vaccinate children against cervical cancer because it “might encourage promiscuity”? In the same way, it’s sacrificing a child’s health for the agenda of the parents.

I guess no comparison really does this topic justice but yours, with all due respect, seems rather off-base. While I don’t think decision for or against the vaccine should rest on fears about promiscuity, you seem to be assuming a lot.

First of all the vaccine is not against cervical cancer but against HPV vaccine and although a causative link has been found, there is no data yet to suggest there’ll be less cervical cancer down the road (for all we know there could be the same incidence, just from strains of HPV not covered in the vaccine).

Secondly you seem to think that the “healthy choice” would be to submit our kids to the vaccine, but has it really been proven that the risks (known and unknown) will be outweighed by the benefits (yet to be proven)?

 

[Mirdath]

also, i was under the impression that massage aids were invented to assist Victorian doctors in providing nervous female patients with relief through orgasms. maybe that is a urbane myth though.

It’s quite true. Genital massage was considered a temporary cure for hysteria. Of course, it was perfectly fine for a doctor to do it since women didn’t have orgasms! Instead, the massage resulted in an ‘hysterical paroxysm’.

the fact that i have this sort of info ruminating in my brain is probably not healthy. i only mention this because i don’t think that all people of the 1800s and early 1900swere as repressed about sex as we younger people like to assume.

The Victorian lady and gentleman both protest too much, methinks ‘Repressed’ may not be the best term, but it’s hard to fit ‘bizarre and probably in some amount of denial’ into a single word.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

One thing FGM and foot-binding have in common is that the practitioners of these mutilations believed that these practices were essential to make their daughters marriageable, in cultures where there were (or are) no opportunities for unmarried women (with the possible exception of prostitution).

Imagine being a mom and having to choose between doing these horrible things to your daughter or condemning her to a dead-end life as an unmarried woman.

It seems the first change needed to eradicate FGM is in the definition of “marriageable”.

 

[Cari]

That’s interesting because I have always heard that it was an Muslim custom. In fact I have heard even some Muslims say it is a part of Islam. Hmmmm

I don’t suppose you have any more information on this?

Sure!

***Many Muslims and academics in the West take pains to insist that the practice is not rooted in religion, but rather in culture. “When one considers that the practice does not prevail and is much condemned in countries like Saudi Arabia, the center of the Islamic world, it becomes clear that the notion that it is an Islamic practice is a false one,” Haseena Lockhat, a child clinical psychologist at North Warwickshire Primary Care Trust, wrote. True, FGM occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa. And in Arab states such as Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit.

But at the village level, those who commit the practice believe it to be religiously mandated. Religion is not only theology but also practice.***
from: meforum.org/article/1629

and:
FGM has been documented in individuals from many religions, including Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Some proponents of the practice claim that it is required by the Islamic faith. However, scholars and theologians of Islam state that female circumcision is not prescribed by their religious doctrine, emphasizing that the procedure is almost never performed in many major Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan.
from: pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/102/1/153

I suppose people who claim that it IS an Islamic practice are like people who confuse Catholic (small “t”) traditions with Catholic doctrine.

Cheers,
Cari

 

[Kadaveri]

I suppose people who claim that it IS an Islamic practice are like people who confuse Catholic (small “t”) traditions with Catholic doctrine.

Cheers,
Cari

Exactly.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6176340.stm

 

[Tmaque]

male circumcision does not compare as it does not prevent a male from enjoying the sexual experience. it is certainly not done with the intent that it will assist males in remaining chaste. there is even some evidence-although i don’t know how reliable-that male circumcision might play a factor in preventing aids.

if you want to compare unneccesary mutilation then breast implants would be a better comparision. both operations are done with the intent to make the female more pleasing to the male.

Actually circumcision does interfere with the male sexual experience. The foreskin is highly sensitive and the glans becomes desensitized by as much as 75% by circumcising. Male infant circumcision, while not as extreme as female circumcision, is still a barbaric practice.

 

[deb1]

Actually circumcision does interfere with the male sexual experience. The foreskin is highly sensitive and the glans becomes desensitized by as much as 75% by circumcising. Male infant circumcision, while not as extreme as female circumcision, is still a barbaric practice.

How do scientist know this sort of information? I am not trying to be funny, I just can’t imagine how in the world they would go about collecting such information.

Men in American and those of Jewish descent don’t seem to enjoy sex less then those from other countries, so I have always had problems understanding how this idea is substantiated.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Gee, I’m really hoping to hear from paarsurrey on this…I can’t wait to hear how he justifies “female circumcision” by his Muslim brothers.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Gee, I’m really hoping to hear from paarsurrey on this…I can’t wait to hear how he justifies “female circumcision” by his Muslim brothers.

Haven’t you been reading? Christians do it as well as Muslims, and Animists. It is a cultural practice, not a religious one.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Haven’t you been reading? Christians do it as well as Muslims, and Animists. It is a cultural practice, not a religious one.

I didn’t read the entire thread. My apologies. I responded to the OP.

That said, I have read of this practice previously.

Am I wrong to say that it is more frequently practiced in Islamic communities?

Overall, the prevalence of circumcision is lower among Christian women than among Muslim women, and the differences are statistically significant in all the regions under study.

guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2707101.html

 

[LDNCatholic]

I didn’t read the entire thread. My apologies. I responded to the OP.

That said, I have read of this practice previously.

Am I wrong to say that it is predominantly practiced in Islamic countries?

That may be, I am unaware of the religious affiliation of most of the African states. However as has been stated numerous times, it predates both Christianity and Islam, and so is a cultural practice, rather than a religious one, which many people (including some Muslims) erroneously believe is a requirement of Islam. Only the ‘Muslims’ who actually agree with this evil torture need to defend the actions.