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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
My top three choices
Benedict
Fabian
Longinus
Good thing we homeschool. Or my kid would either “get tough or die.”
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Benedict
Fabian
Longinus
Good thing we homeschool. Or my kid would either “get tough or die.”
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EasterJoy
Guest
Good grief, submission is not cowering, but a willingness to serve instead of being served. It is mutual respect, and it is not impossible for spouses to submit to each other. If they want the fullness of Christian marriage, it is necessary.
And even that famous fifth chapter of Ephesians that speaks of husbands and wives begins in this way:
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Eph. 5:21
To answer the original question: No one who leads as Christ taught leadership is going to go wrong, for no person with Christ as his or her light will grasp for power in the relationship. For remember that Ephesians bid husbands to be another Christ, giving himself up for his wife. Remember what Paul, writing in Philippians, said that looks like:
*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.
**Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, **taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. Do everything without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like lights in the world, as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. * Phil 2:1-16
- They came to Capernaum and, once inside the house, he began to ask them, “What were you arguing about on the way?” But they remained silent. They had been discussing among themselves on the way who was the greatest. Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, **“If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all.” *Taking a child he placed it in their midst, and putting his arms around it he said to them, “Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but the one who sent me.” Mark 9:33-37
And even that famous fifth chapter of Ephesians that speaks of husbands and wives begins in this way:
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Eph. 5:21
To answer the original question: No one who leads as Christ taught leadership is going to go wrong, for no person with Christ as his or her light will grasp for power in the relationship. For remember that Ephesians bid husbands to be another Christ, giving himself up for his wife. Remember what Paul, writing in Philippians, said that looks like:
*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.
**Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, **taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. Do everything without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like lights in the world, as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. * Phil 2:1-16
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clem456
Guest
Well…sort of.
The submission and sacrifice of man and woman in leadership is mutual yet unique to their masculinity and femininity, not one is a leader and the other is not, or one submits and the other does not. Theology of the Body spells this out especially well here:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb88.htm
and in the surrounding chapters.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Christ is the head of the Church and the Church is the “bride” of Christ. Do you think that God used those metaphors in scripture and then did not want us to apply them to the actual subject of the metaphor, marriage? One cannot survive without the other, Paul tells us this about the parts of the body. But one is obviously the head.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I do not think that the husband who leads as Christ showed the princes of the Church that they ought to lead is going to have a problem. The husband is the head, yes, but Christ is over all.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Absolutely.
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EasterJoy
Guest
“Unique in their masculinity and femininity”–meaning, if you tell him that the Lord is risen, expect that he’ll feel a need to run down to the tomb and check it out himself. (Sorry, I could not resist.
)Seriously, though, look at the way Our Lady spoke to the angel at the Annunciation. No one is more of a model of submission that she, but this does not mean she did not ask sensible questions. Likewise, St. Joseph had a plan of action befitting an upright man, but when the angel corrected him, he accepted the situation without a problem and changed his course of action, docile to God. When Our Lord was found at the Temple, he was honest in his surprise that there had been a misunderstanding, but even he who could teach the teachers of the Law and through whom all that is was made was obedient to his parents. In contrast are Sarah in the Old Testament and Zechariah in the New Testament. They were not terrible people or anything, but they needed to learn something about listening.
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clem456
Guest
I know you like to argue, But we’re not going to be doing that again, sorry.
I said nowhere that God did not want us to apply "metaphors’ to marriage.
Can we stick to what was actually said?
“Head” does not mean dominance in the spiritual well being of the marriage, as the other poster stated or inferred.
Husband and wife are both responsible for the spiritual well being of their marriage and their children.
Did you read the passage from TOB? The passage should speak for itself.
Maybe you could comment on that…
Here’s another relevant passage.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb89.htm
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clem456
Guest
Thanks for the laugh.“Unique in their masculinity and femininity”–meaning, if you tell him that the Lord is risen, expect that he’ll feel a need to run down to the tomb and check it out himself. (Sorry, I could not resist.
Surely it couldn’t have happened without the husband being there to help roll the stone away etc…
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marymary1975
Guest
^^^^ I think this is the best answer so far. We have to keep in Mind the actual theological explanation of the passage which is highly misinterpreted and misunderstood.
Also I must say I like Xantippe’s comment, I have seen some lastnames (as Moron, Bastardo = bastard in English and Condon = condom in English) that I think a guy with those last name would be very happy to take his wife’s name. But again taking a spouse surname is not a custom where I come from which is by the way a country with a practicing catholic majority.
I also agree that in marriage each individual strengths and weaknesses have to be taken intoaccount. In a couple wwhere the man is awful with finances and the wife is great with money, probably the wife should be taking care of finances. In my case my husband is wonderful when it comes to finances, money planning, etc. So I am happy to leave him be in charge of the finances. On the other hand I have the big corporate job earning most of the income and he is happy with that because I have the education that allows me to have the big corporate job and he doesn’t and in the end…just like with the finances it benefits both of us.
To me the big problem in this area comes when one either the husband or the wife are in competition against each and trying to dominate the other instead of working together for the benefit of both.
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clem456
Guest
The words “head” and “submission”, and the analogy used by Paul in regards to Christ and the Church are frequently misunderstood and taken out of their proper context.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb88.htm
(this is Blessed John Paul 2 speaking, in case a reader does not have the time to open the link and read the whole document)
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb88.htm
(this is Blessed John Paul 2 speaking, in case a reader does not have the time to open the link and read the whole document)
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marymary1975
Guest
the husband’s leadership ought to be the same as Christ: service. The husband leadership should be through service in the same way that Christ served his church. Not being the first but the last. Not expecting sacrifices from others instead sacrificing himself for it.
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RPRPsych
Guest
Point well made.We run in some pretty traditionalist circles. We would love to see more of the latin Mass, we see the problems with the way some people have “modernized” the faith. We have friends that are SSPX. And yes, they raise an eyebrow at our situation. But I find if I steer the conversation to “modernists”, post vatican II troubles, or children’s clothing in the malls, or homosexual takeover of our world, they tend to chase bigger fish to fry than my stay at home dad situation. The homeschool aspect helps too. But I still get “are you looking for work” “Did you get laid off” Or “are you going back to school” Sometimes even from my mom.
The answer is no. I am done working. I quit 8 years ago. I had a good job, it was nice, I am not going back.
I think they are just jealous. I “retired” at 30.
One of the things that drives me nuts though is the traditionalists homeschool groups. Those moms see me and honestly are quite inappropriate. They literally flock to me. I hate it. It puts me in difficult positions. I am there for my children, not to gab with the “girlfriends” and hear about how they wish their husband could be more like me.I had to stop going.
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RPRPsych
Guest
Great post!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
My wife and I would be offended at being labeled feminists. That may be your definition but society has a very different portrayal.
Again, that label would be quite offensive to her and to me. It would offend our roles and our traditional values. And it would be completely inaccurate. Respecting a woman, allowing her to fulfil her holy vocation and allowing me to fulfill mine has nothing to do with feminism. One could argue that by allowing me to stay home and watch football while raising the kids we are a male dominate household and very chauvinistic. Neither are true. What we are are two people male and female protector and nurturer and living our vocations as God made us. Our roles are not reversed. We are masculine and feminine.
PS
You and I have to stop posting on the same threads or one of us should change our screename.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Done. I never would have gone. I never would have spent the money. I never would like to venture too far from my comfort zone. Aside from my wedding day, or the birth of my children it was the single greatest moment of my life. We had an audience with the Pope. We saw the bones of St peter. We discovered romance in tuscany, and peace in Assisi. And art in florence. And Venice was awesome too. All without the kids, which also is a decision I would not have made. I’m glad she did though!You must keep her in charge of European travel
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I know what you are getting at and in one sense, probably the most literal sense you are correct. But that word has been corrupted. The movement of feminists in the suffrage movement or in the arena of equality is commendable. Honestly feminism or masculinity really are charged terms that evolve to fit agendas from society. When one calls someone a feminist. It generally means something that my wife and I would be against.LOL.
Everytime I see you on a thread, I kick myself for not thinking of yer clever moniker first
In my experience and travels, and historically, I think most women have and do define “feminist” as I do.
But the definition on this forum seems to be one that is much more extreme–and every group has it’s ultra-extreme, angry fringe members, even Christians–and one that is not the majority.
The origin of the “feminist movement” is about women having fair treatment, opportunities, and respect–voting, following their talents, being able to support themselves and others with jobs and careers, being taken seriously in jobs like science, as your wife is.
None of this, as you know, was possible several decades ago.
Honestly…like it or not…your ability to do the switcheroo re working inside/outside the home would be considered by most “feminists” as the ultimate expression of the original “cause” of the “movement”.
I used quotations on those words because…the words are quite archaic now.
As you might see if you re-read what I wrote, I didn’t say anything about your masculinity/femininity or holy vocations and such.
I talked about the flexibility and reason you both have. You said your wife is the scholastic superior, so then it makes sense for her to pursue that. She has a respected career as a Scientist, so it makes sense for her to “play the career game” and “make the money” if it works for both of you.
When the movie “Mr. Mom” came out 30 years ago, this kind of set-up was considered rather shocking.
But this is exactly what the original “feminists” fought for, this kind of understanding and flexibility that doesn’t have to do with gender, but with personality and talents.
Women fish and pass gas and like football too, you know…I’m sure. That doesn’t make her less a woman. And you can take great care of the household and kids, and that doesn’t make you any less a “man”.
And as you can see, the “feminist movement” benefits not only women, but men, too…you are reaping the benefits and joys of this kind of liberation and you and your wife are able to carve out a more unique set-up that suites you both beautifully.
Forty years ago…this may not have been so “accepted” or possible.
So please, do not feel offended by the “F” word. Because what you and your wife are doing is exactly what women were fighting for all along
.
Here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists
In this century very few names on this list are synonymous with our values and theology.
Nor would any of these women be anything we would owe any success to. Feminism these days is dominated by an anti marriage and anti life ideology. Most modern feminists have killed more females in the womb than they will help in life. My wife is not a scientist because of feminism but despite it. It is despite a womans right to choose that she was even allowed to breathe. Her mother, a single mom, would have been counseled to abort by many a so called feminist.
It is a charged term. And while I appreciate your attempt to take back the original purpose of a “feminist” please do not do so while applying the term to those who might be offended by it. To me, and I am not exaggerating, calling my wife a feminist is like the “N” word. It does not describe us, it is offensive, and it is using the past definition of a word in a current derogatory context. I raise my daughters to be strong independant, Christian women. Who have the world as their oyster and can pursue their calling. All of that is owed to being Catholic and Christian, and none of it is owed to feminists. None. The great female saints: Elizabeth Ann Seton, Joan of Ark, Katherine Drexel, Monica, Eve, and the greatest female saint of all, Mary are not feminists. They are holy women. Embracing their strengths and weaknesses. Their calling, be it in freedom or outside of it. Be it in martyrdom, or in modern equality, is to live their calling. No one, no movement, no separation of gender gave them this ability. In fact few of them had the feminist movement to thank at all. Just look at your post. You stated that most WOMEN would define it a certain way. Who cares? And that is telling that it even matters how a WOMAN defines it anyway. It is the feminist side of “I have black friends who use that word” Just segregating women out as the ones who could define the word is sexist. Ask 100 american men what they think feminism is. Then count how many times Hillary Clinton is muttered.
To describe me or my feminine wife as a feminist or implying that we owe our situation to feminism is inaccurate and takes away the true movement we owe it to. Christ.
Please, while I understand you are well meaning, do not call me or my wife a feminist. You can point out that we hold some ideals that true feminism might have but let your point stop there. We are not feminists. I am a man, she is a woman. We have distinct roles and places. We are not interchangeable, nor are we oppressed.
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clem456
Guest
I have to agree with Hoosier Daddy 
…(surely the end times are upon us)
I’d rather be associated with the other “f” word than with feminism
The only ism I subscribe to is Catholicism.
…(surely the end times are upon us)I’d rather be associated with the other “f” word than with feminism
The only ism I subscribe to is Catholicism.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
I am happily married. In many ways, my marriage is more traditional than what many of the Catholics on this site have, in other ways, it’s strikingly modern.
I didn’t take my husband’s last name, we both hyphenated. It wasn’t any sort of “I’m not taking no man’s last name” or any such thing like that, I just really liked my name, it was special to me, and we both like the symbolism of bringing who we each are into the marriage and our new family. Our children will have hyphenated names. As far as what they do when they get married, I don’t care, even if they drop my last name and keep my husband’s. All that matters to me is that my husband and I will have a shared name for the rest of our lives.
My husband makes most of the financial decisions, with heavy (name removed by moderator)ut from me. This has nothing to do with his gender and everything to do with the fact that he has an advanced degree in accounting and has had a successful career in business. Likewise, I handle most of our housing decisions (with his (name removed by moderator)ut, of course). This is because I’ve been a landlord, I know what to look for, and I’m far thriftier and more creative with space than he is.
Most of our social obligations and plans go through me, but I’m more social than he is. We handle things like travel together, since we both have a lot of wants/needs when it comes to that.
Sexually, he’s usually dominant, but that can and does change in big ways every now and then.
We split domestic responsibilities. By that I mean we have a small apartment and every Sunday we spend an hour or two cleaning together for the week. We’re both extremely busy, so it’s usually take out for dinner these days. When we aren’t so busy, whoever gets home first will start cooking, and the other pitches in when they get home.
I respect him as a strong, masculine person with an excellent ability to lead. I defer to him frequently. Likewise, he is well aware that he married an educated, hardworking, and opinionated woman who will be his partner in life.
Most of our hobbies, interests, and friends are shared. The only “feminine” hobby I have is knitting, and hubby actually enjoys it as well. Other than that, we spend a lot of time watching football, playing poker, doing things outside, going to shooting ranges, and just spending time out having a few beers with friends. All of those are traditionally masculine, but that’s what we were both into before we met, so we enjoy them together. (Well, except the shooting, I got him into that after we got married)
He loves, protects, and takes care of me. I do the same for him.
I didn’t take my husband’s last name, we both hyphenated. It wasn’t any sort of “I’m not taking no man’s last name” or any such thing like that, I just really liked my name, it was special to me, and we both like the symbolism of bringing who we each are into the marriage and our new family. Our children will have hyphenated names. As far as what they do when they get married, I don’t care, even if they drop my last name and keep my husband’s. All that matters to me is that my husband and I will have a shared name for the rest of our lives.
My husband makes most of the financial decisions, with heavy (name removed by moderator)ut from me. This has nothing to do with his gender and everything to do with the fact that he has an advanced degree in accounting and has had a successful career in business. Likewise, I handle most of our housing decisions (with his (name removed by moderator)ut, of course). This is because I’ve been a landlord, I know what to look for, and I’m far thriftier and more creative with space than he is.
Most of our social obligations and plans go through me, but I’m more social than he is. We handle things like travel together, since we both have a lot of wants/needs when it comes to that.
Sexually, he’s usually dominant, but that can and does change in big ways every now and then.
We split domestic responsibilities. By that I mean we have a small apartment and every Sunday we spend an hour or two cleaning together for the week. We’re both extremely busy, so it’s usually take out for dinner these days. When we aren’t so busy, whoever gets home first will start cooking, and the other pitches in when they get home.
I respect him as a strong, masculine person with an excellent ability to lead. I defer to him frequently. Likewise, he is well aware that he married an educated, hardworking, and opinionated woman who will be his partner in life.
Most of our hobbies, interests, and friends are shared. The only “feminine” hobby I have is knitting, and hubby actually enjoys it as well. Other than that, we spend a lot of time watching football, playing poker, doing things outside, going to shooting ranges, and just spending time out having a few beers with friends. All of those are traditionally masculine, but that’s what we were both into before we met, so we enjoy them together. (Well, except the shooting, I got him into that after we got married
)He loves, protects, and takes care of me. I do the same for him.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Oh, clem, You and I probably agree on many an issue. I’m certain we can agree while we worship God forever in heaven should we be lucky enough to make it.I have to agree with Hoosier Daddy
I’d rather be associated with the other “f” word than with feminism
The only ism I subscribe to is Catholicism.
You are my brother. And brothers don’t shake hands, brothers gotta hug!:hug1:
And because you are my brother, I gotta give you noogies, punch you in the arm and establish my dominance.
But I will stand up for my bro.
You want a hertz donut?
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