Female Ordination

[mayxanh]

Please don’t throw stones on me but I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

As far as I know, the refusal to ordain women is on the ground that 12 apostles were all men. Jesus was also men.

Let’s see. Isreal society at that time was essentially patriarchy. If Jesus was born as woman, he would not be able to preach. He could not choose woman as apostles because they would not be allowed to preach in front of the public too.

God has no gender. However, Jesus became human inside a history and He had to follow the prevailing norm of that society.

Just imagine if Isreal society was matriarchy at the time, Jesus must be born as women. Otherwise, noone would listen to Him.

Remember that matriachy does exist in many places on earth.

 

[Zekariya]

Please don’t throw stones on me but I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

As far as I know, the refusal to ordain women is on the ground that 12 apostles were all men. Jesus was also men.

Let’s see. Isreal society at that time was patriarchy. If Jesus was born as woman, he would not be able to preach. He could not choose woman as apostles because they would not be allowed to preach in front of the public too.

God has no gender. However, Jesus became human inside a history and He had to follow the prevailing norm of that society.

Just imagine if Isreal society was matriarchy at the time, Jesus must be born as women. Otherwise, noone would listen to Him.

Remember that matriachy does exist in many places on earth.

God planned it all out. It was not a mistake that he chose men. Christ was very counter cultural and could have chosen women with no problem but, he did not. This might be of help:

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. the Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Please don’t throw stones on me but I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

As far as I know, the refusal to ordain women is on the ground that 12 apostles were all men. Jesus was also men.

Let’s see. Isreal society at that time was patriarchy. If Jesus was born as woman, he would not be able to preach. He could not choose woman as apostles because they would not be allowed to preach in front of the public too.

God has no gender. However, Jesus became human inside a history and He had to follow the prevailing norm of that society.

Just imagine if Isreal society was matriarchy at the time, Jesus must be born as women. Otherwise, noone would listen to Him.

Remember that matriachy does exist in many places on earth.

The reason that women cannot be ordained is because Jesus only chose men to be His apostles and then through time, the Church carried on that tradition. The fact that only men can be ordained is now a part of the Deposit of Faith and that cannot be changed. Had Jesus chosen a woman, such as His Mother to be an apostle it would be a different story. He could have, He did not, we are bound as such.

The society of the time does not bind what the Lord can do, He exists outside of time and space and was building a church that would last until His return. He was not building a Church for the 1st Century.

 

[Zekariya]

Blessed Pope John Paul II goes into greater depth: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

 

[mayxanh]

I am not quite convinced. If Jesus chose a women apostles, she would definitely not be allowed to preach. You know, at the time, the place of women is inside the household, not in front of the public. **Noone listen to her **and she **might be stoned to death for going against the tradition **(women stays home)

 

[davidv]

I am not quite convinced. If Jesus chose a women apostles, she would definitely not be allowed to preach. You know, at the time, the place of women is inside the household, not in front of the public. **Noone listen to her **and she **might be stoned to death for going against the tradition **(women stays home)

Did you read the link provided by the previous poster? There is much more behind the reason for a male only priesthood than can be expressed in a few lines of text.

 

[Della]

The Church has been spare in explaining why women cannot be ordained and does not need to explain further. However, this does not mean there are no theological underpinnings for the doctrine, based in how God chose to create us as male and female and the gender specifics that apply to us as human beings.

God created Adam and from Adam created Eve establishing the husband as the authority figure of the family. This does not mean that Eve had no say and therefore women have no say, it means the responsibility for the stability and sanctity of the family lies principally with the husband. He is both faith and priest of the family–the pattern followed by Abraham and his descendants to Jesus and on to us through the Apostles.

Woman was created to be the mother and intercessor, a role which God himself gave her as a part of his nature, not as a demotion of her dignity. In being a mother, woman cooperates in creating life, which is what God did in creating mankind. It’s a gift that no man can have and is special to woman.

In becoming man to intercede for us to satisfy God’s justice, Jesus took on this feminine role, elevating it and making it part of the priesthood from Aaron and Melchizedek to himself, thus a priest represents us all, not just males. As the Second Adam Jesus speaks for us all, not just for males. The Blessed Virgin Mary became the Second Eve and so intercedes for us with her Son, thus reversing the failure of Eve in Mary’s fiat.

 

[Gorgias]

mayxanh:

I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

I would recommend that you find a copy of Sara Butler’s excellent book The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church. It’s a pretty straightforward read, and does a good job of tracing the historical development of the question.

 

[SwizzleStick]

…If Jesus chose a women apostles,…

He didn’t, though.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Pope John Paul ll said the Church has no authority to change the priesthood in terms of gender

Sacrament of Holy orders makes clear that a priest acts in the person of Christ - in persona Christi. Jesus Christ was a man and and only men can take on that indelible character

Bible makes clear the Church is Christ’s bride, Christ is the bridegroom. A woman can not be a bridegroom, therefore she can not be a priest

Pope John Paul ll said women and men are equal before God

But consider that men and women are inherently different in regards to gender

 

[yukonbrad]

God planned it all out. It was not a mistake that he chose men. Christ was very counter cultural and could have chosen women with no problem but, he did not. This might be of help:

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1577 “Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. the Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

Indeed this is true, however, there are historical reasons that the church fathers chose such an approach as well as the vows priests take (niether existed in the early church). There is scriptual reference for at least female deacons most notably in chapter 16 of Romans with reference to Phoebe. All said until the church fathers choose otherwise what is in the Catedhism stands.

 

[SonSearcher]

The Church has been spare in explaining why women cannot be ordained and does not need to explain further. However, this does not mean there are no theological underpinnings for the doctrine, based in how God chose to create us as male and female and the gender specifics that apply to us as human beings.

God created Adam and from Adam created Eve establishing the husband as the authority figure of the family. This does not mean that Eve had no say and therefore women have no say, it means the responsibility for the stability and sanctity of the family lies principally with the husband. He is both faith and priest of the family–the pattern followed by Abraham and his descendants to Jesus and on to us through the Apostles.

Woman was created to be the mother and intercessor, a role which God himself gave her as a part of his nature, not as a demotion of her dignity. In being a mother, woman cooperates in creating life, which is what God did in creating mankind. It’s a gift that no man can have and is special to woman.

In becoming man to intercede for us to satisfy God’s justice, Jesus took on this feminine role, elevating it and making it part of the priesthood from Aaron and Melchizedek to himself, thus a priest represents us all, not just males. As the Second Adam Jesus speaks for us all, not just for males. The Blessed Virgin Mary became the Second Eve and so intercedes for us with her Son, thus reversing the failure of Eve in Mary’s fiat.

DANG this is good. I wish there was a Microphone drop emoticon.

 

[sw85]

Please don’t throw stones on me but I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

As far as I know, the refusal to ordain women is on the ground that 12 apostles were all men. Jesus was also men.

Let’s see. Isreal society at that time was essentially patriarchy. If Jesus was born as woman, he would not be able to preach. He could not choose woman as apostles because they would not be allowed to preach in front of the public too.

God has no gender. However, Jesus became human inside a history and He had to follow the prevailing norm of that society.

Just imagine if Isreal society was matriarchy at the time, Jesus must be born as women. Otherwise, noone would listen to Him.

Remember that matriachy does exist in many places on earth.

The tendency is to talk about patriarchy as if it some kind of arbitrary invention that in no way corresponds to the real demands of human nature. As if the fact that ancient Israel (and most of the ancient world) was patriarchal is a sheer accident.

But, of course, it isn’t. And the fact that God did not upset the patriarchal order is pretty good evidence that it was, perhaps, ordained by Him from the beginning.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think the line of argumentation that relies on Jesus being helplessly at the mercy of the reigning patriarchal culture of the day is weak (to put it mildly). Do we not believe He is God? Did he not shatter many conventions of the day (talking to the Samaritan women at the well, eating and drinking with sinners, his followers plucking grain to eat on the Sabbath, etc., etc.)?

Give Jesus a little credit! If He wanted female apostles, He would have done so. The idea that He played to the whims of the age ignores Who He Is.

Further, in that day and age, priestesses were the norm in the other religions. It would not have been that earth-shattering to follow suit.

But of course, this is no slight to women. After His Resurrection, he appeared first to a woman. He chose to become Incarnate through a woman – a woman whom He preserved from sin and crowned as Queen of Heaven.

 

[KP3243]

Scott Hahn does a beautiful job going over this in one of his books; unfortunately I don’t recall which one I am leaning towards Swear to God or First Comes Love. He says the key to understanding the male priesthood, is understand the covenant family bond we have with God. God is a father and a priest is your spiritual father. Hahn basically says if a woman could understand fatherhood then female ordination would be justified. I am honestly not even doing this justice if you google the Saint Paul Center for Biblical Theology and go to the Audio section listen to both lecture series you won’t be disappointed because you learn so much. It doesn’t have to do with discrimination it has to do with the unique gifts God gave men and women who are the same in dignity but not the same in their family roles. We have the tendency to view our relationship with God as a master servant relationship, not a relationship with our father.

 

[Della]

DANG this is good. I wish there was a Microphone drop emoticon.

How kind. :curtsey: My paragraphs are but a brief summary of various writings on the topic which I have read, so I cannot take credit. I’m only echoing better thinkers/scholars than myself.

 

[aemcpa]

Please don’t throw stones on me but I don’t fully understand the Church’s stance regarding Female Ordination.

As far as I know, the refusal to ordain women is on the ground that 12 apostles were all men. Jesus was also men.

Let’s see. Isreal society at that time was essentially patriarchy. If Jesus was born as woman, he would not be able to preach. He could not choose woman as apostles because they would not be allowed to preach in front of the public too.

God has no gender. However, Jesus became human inside a history and He had to follow the prevailing norm of that society.

Just imagine if Isreal society was matriarchy at the time, Jesus must be born as women. Otherwise, noone would listen to Him.

Remember that matriachy does exist in many places on earth.

And who decided whether Jesus would be a man or a woman? Since he has no earthly father, God Himself provided that He Himself would be born as a man. He Himself decided that He Himself would be born where He was, when He was, how He was, and to whom He was. Nothing about Our Lord’s entrance into history was an accident, and He meant to teach us something about Himself by the circumstances under which He chose to assume a human nature.

 

[bitznbitez]

It would seem to me that the track record of denominations that have ordained priestesses would be somehow relevant to the discussion…

 

[KP3243]

I think the line of argumentation that relies on Jesus being helplessly at the mercy of the reigning patriarchal culture of the day is weak (to put it mildly). Do we not believe He is God? Did he not shatter many conventions of the day (talking to the Samaritan women at the well, eating and drinking with sinners, his followers plucking grain to eat on the Sabbath, etc., etc.)?

Give Jesus a little credit! If He wanted female apostles, He would have done so. The idea that He played to the whims of the age ignores Who He Is.

Further, in that day and age, priestesses were the norm in the other religions. It would not have been that earth-shattering to follow suit.

But of course, this is no slight to women. After His Resurrection, he appeared first to a woman. He chose to become Incarnate through a woman – a woman whom He preserved from sin and crowned as Queen of Heaven.

I also think this is why Catholics venerate Mary in the manner we do, her fiat when Gabriel appeared to her, liberated women forever. God gave a woman who is a creature an extraordinarily large role in human salvation and it was completely her choice to participate in it or not. Think about it. Women couldn’t even choose their spouses and Mary was asked if she would be the mother of the messiah that her people were waiting centuries for his arrival and he would redeem Israel.

 

[aemcpa]

Further, while it is laudable to want the understand the reasons for this teaching, this issue is not open for debate. John Paul II’s declaration in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was an exercise of papal infallibility.