Female Ordination

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mikeeh said:
The Church is always referred to as a female. Priests are married to the Church. Religious sisters and nuns are married to Jesus Christ. For a woman to be a priest is to encourage lesbianism. To be honest I’m a little jealous of women. A bromance with my Lord would be awesome.👍
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Well I’ll refrain from the answer that first came to mind…
If you go round saying that women priests encourage lesbianism, you’ll never be taken seriously. Certainly gave me a laugh!
 
aemcpa said:
The Church of England is a whitewashed sepulcher, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is as much a bishop as I am. Our Lord also said to the Apostles, “Whoever hears you, hears Me,” and “Whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven.” This nonsense about a “power struggle” is a tired attempt to see everything in history through modern feminist lenses, and it’s complete garbage. Authority and power are not the same thing. The hierarchy has responsibility, and it has authority, but it does not have “power” as if it is some despotic government.
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Yup, there’s the first stone!
Whitewashed sepulche is a bit strong isn’t it? Do you have the monopoly on God in your church alone? Do they sing praises to another God in our C of E cathedrals and parish churches?
Or is yours just another way of getting there?
And oh yes the RC hierarchy does have real power over people’s lives.
 
Walcot said:
Yup, there’s the first stone!
Whitewashed sepulche is a bit strong isn’t it? Do you have the monopoly on God in your church alone? Do they sing praises to another God in our C of E cathedrals and parish churches?
Or is yours just another way of getting there?
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I agree that this answer was uncharitable and untrue. I was Episcopalian as a child and know that God is definitely in it, as he is in all who call on his name. The Catholic Church says the same.
And oh yes the RC hierarchy does have real power over people’s lives.
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Did you get the chance to read my response to your post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10411163&postcount=73. It may help you with this question. 🙂
 
Della said:
Being a non-Catholic it is understandable that you see this as a power struggle. You’ve been told this by those who want it to be that so they can claim their “rights” are being violated, but it’s not about power at all.

No priest has more power than a nun. Many a priest has learned the hard way that to oppoqse Mother Superior is to have his head handed to him on a plate. The Church does not regard some people as more worthy than others nor is anyone judged better than another based on his/her vocation–marriage is also a vocation in the Church.

Authority is not about power, but about responsibility. Each of us has certain responsibilities and therefore certain authority. Bishops have a great deal of responsibility, but then so does the head of a religious order, no matter if that order is a female or male order. The Church has named women Doctors of the Church and many women are our most revered saints because of their strength of character and the many good things they accomplished with their lives.
Mere power is nothing if one does nothing good with it. We Catholics admire those who do good with their abilities and their station in life no matter if they were truck drivers or prime ministers, kings and queens, or slaves and servants. Within the Body of Christ all are called to the same vocation–that of holiness and love. Whoever gains these are more powerful with God, and in the eyes of the Church, than any number of bishops who were not faithful.
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I was brought up Catholic so I’m not looking in as an outsider as such. I too value the role of motherhood - it’s not second best to any other life. When I had my children I was lucky enough to be able to be a full time mother as I think that’s the ideal - but I would not have had my teaching career if I’d followed the church teachings and been more or less permanently pregnant throughout my child-bearing years. I left the Catholic church as soon as I became an adult as I had gradually lost belief in many of it’s dogmas over quite a long time. To put it bluntly, as an adult, I was darned if it was going to follow me into the bedroom too.
 
Walcot said:
Do you have the monopoly on God in your church alone? Do they sing praises to another God in our C of E cathedrals and parish churches?
Or is yours just another way of getting there?
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According to St. Augustine of Hippo, one of the greatest men the Church ever had:
Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.
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Walcot said:
I was brought up Catholic so I’m not looking in as an outsider as such. While I too value the role of motherhood - when I had my children I was lucky enough to be able to be a full time mother as I think that’s the ideal - but I would not have had my teaching career if I’d followed the church teachings and been more or less permanently pregnant throughout my child-bearing years. I left the Catholic church as soon as I became an adult as I had gradually lost belief in many of it’s dogmas over quite a long time. As an adult, I was darned if it was going to follow me into the bedroom too.
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I do not think that you are looking in as an insider. I think that many who were brought up Catholic need to be confirmed in the faith. I was brought up Catholic, and yet I call myself a convert because in adulthood I learned what the Catholic Church is, and how sound both theologically and logically are the teachings and the dogmas of the Church.

It is actually quite mature to not be afraid of the truth under any circumstance and to let it permeate us not only in exterior - as many Catholics do - but also to the most intimate aspects of our life.

The Catholic Theology of the Body is amidst the greatest treasures of our faith, has beautifully enriched the life of spouses at all levels - yes, including in the marital embrace, a symbol of the union of Christ and the Church - and has benefited many young men and women in this sick little world of ours. The Church has a lot to teach on the holiness and sacredness of sex and in terms of the dignity of the spouses, and - to keep the metaphor - as an adult I would never step into the bedroom without wearing my crucifix blessed by the Catholic Church.
 
Walcot said:
I was brought up Catholic so I’m not looking in as an outsider as such. While I too value the role of motherhood - when I had my children I was lucky enough to be able to be a full time mother as I think that’s the ideal - but I would not have had my teaching career if I’d followed the church teachings and been more or less permanently pregnant throughout my child-bearing years. I left the Catholic church as soon as I became an adult as I had gradually lost belief in many of it’s dogmas over quite a long time. As an adult, I was darned if it was going to follow me into the bedroom too.
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I rest my case.
 
Walcot said:
I was brought up Catholic so I’m not looking in as an outsider as such. While I too value the role of motherhood - when I had my children I was lucky enough to be able to be a full time mother as I think that’s the ideal - but I would not have had my teaching career if I’d followed the church teachings and been more or less permanently pregnant throughout my child-bearing years. I left the Catholic church as soon as I became an adult as I had gradually lost belief in many of it’s dogmas over quite a long time. As an adult, I was darned if it was going to follow me into the bedroom too.
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That’s spurious. The Church teaches no such thing.

Couples are certainly able to discern how many children to have and when.
 
Walcot said:
I was brought up Catholic so I’m not looking in as an outsider as such. While I too value the role of motherhood - when I had my children I was lucky enough to be able to be a full time mother as I think that’s the ideal - but I would not have had my teaching career if I’d followed the church teachings and been more or less permanently pregnant throughout my child-bearing years. I left the Catholic church as soon as I became an adult as I had gradually lost belief in many of it’s dogmas over quite a long time. As an adult, I was darned if it was going to follow me into the bedroom too.
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I’m afraid someone misinformed you about what the Church expects of married women. :o No woman is expected to have as many babies as possible during her child-bearing years. And it’s fine to have a teaching career as well as be a mother, if you can do that. Each of us is different. Some women love having many children and other not–there’s no Church law that demands women have babies, only that, according to their circumstances, couples should be open to life. That can mean 12 children or none, depending on the couple, their circumstances, their health, age, etc.

If you’d like to start threads on the dogmas you have trouble believing, we’d be happy to discuss them with you–or give you resources. Just so you can be well-informed, if nothing else. 🙂
 
R_C said:
According to St. Augustine of Hippo, one of the greatest men the Church ever had:
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In the 4th century the Christian church was still sorting out what it was to be CHRISTIAN! By the time of the reformation the accretion of dogma, tradition and corruption had made it, to many people, unrecognisable as the true message that they’d heard from Jesus.
They had a point. They didn’t stop being Christian or use a different book you know.
 
Walcot said:
In the 4th century the Christian church was still sorting out what it was to be CHRISTIAN! By the time of the reformation the accretion of dogma, tradition and corruption had made it, to many people, unrecognisable as the true message that they’d heard from Jesus.
They had a point. They didn’t stop being Christian or use a different book you know.
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Thank God that He sent Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer to sort that out for us.
 
Hi mayxanh

Speaking for myself, I can’t say I have heard a really compelling argument against women priests. I don’t think only men can be the hands of Christ. Having said that, I don’t think that, by itself, is sufficient reason to change centuries of tradition - a more positive reason is required.
 
Walcot said:
But how? Within marriage one can choose Sex life or no sex life?
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There are different degrees. Sex life must be ordered regardless, because this is proper. There are natural cycles that allow couples who feel responsible about not bringing children into the world without having the necessary conditions to enjoy the blessed marital embrace without the idea of conception. Chastity and abstinence are a beautiful way of life if practiced together, that profoundly enrich the sex life. As for marriage, we even have what are called Josephite marriage, in which the spouses mutually agree to entirely refrain from sexual intercourse, living a purely spiritual relationship.
 
aemcpa said:
Thank God that He sent Henry VIII and Thomas Cranmer to sort that out for us.
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Henry VIII had woman problems…he was very clever and arrogant and certainly didn’t like the power of the pope, but perhaps he wouldn’t have broken from the Catholic church if the pope had agreed to his divorce (which was also as much a political as theological decision of the pope’s - alliances etc - volatile times!)
There were more spiritual men in the true 'break-away movement, however much you disagree with their ideas. And there had already been a previous break- with the Orthodox church, hadn’t there?
Why can’t the churches co-exist? My old parish priest and local vicar were the best of friends and had long theological debates. Is that so bad?
 
Walcot said:
Henry VIII had woman problems…he was very clever and arrogant and certainly didn’t like the power of the pope, but perhaps he wouldn’t have broken from the Catholic church if the pope had agreed to his divorce (which was also as much a political as theological decision of the pope’s - alliances etc - volatile times!)
There were more spiritual men in the true 'break-away movement, however much you disagree with their ideas. And there had already been a previous break- with the Orthodox church, hadn’t there?
Why can’t the churches co-exist? My old parish priest and local vicar were the best of friends and had long theological debates. Is that so bad?
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The validity of a sacramental marriage is not a political question. And God’s will is that there be one Church, under one shepherd. The Orthodox Churches’ refusal to return to communion with the Church under the leadership of the Pope is scandalous and sinful; for the Church of England, that is only count #1 on a rap sheet a mile long.
 
Walcot said:
But how? Within marriage one can choose Sex life or no sex life?
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R_C has answered this. The practice of using the natural cycles to help in choosing intimacy is called NFP. Provided the couple both approach it with the right attitude and plan, it can be quite marriage building. They actually have a driving reason to talk frequently about their family goals, status and concerns. In short, their reasons for not having a child at this time. It’s kind of like dating for 7-10 days per month.
R_C said:
There are different degrees. Sex life must be ordered regardless, because this is proper. There are natural cycles that allow couples who feel responsible about not bringing children into the world without having the necessary conditions to enjoy the blessed marital embrace without the idea of conception. Chastity and abstinence are a beautiful way of life if practiced together, that profoundly enrich the sex life. As for marriage, we even have what are called Josephite marriage, in which the spouses mutually agree to entirely refrain from sexual intercourse, living a purely spiritual relationship.
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Josephite marriage is a bit over the top to me, however. :rolleyes:
 
If we hold that the only differences between men and women are physical, then I don’t think that there is a good argument against women being priests; however if there is more to sex and gender than physical qualities, then that changes things significantly. Read this article for more info:

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/sexual-symbolism.htm
 
aemcpa said:
The validity of a sacramental marriage is not a political question. And God’s will is that there be one Church, under one shepherd. The Orthodox Churches’ refusal to return to communion with the Church under the leadership of the Pope is scandalous and sinful; for the Church of England, that is only count #1 on a rap sheet a mile long.
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And the pope in the 16th century had very real political problems of the day - Spain for instance. There were perceived spiritual arguments for Henry’s divorce…it wasn’t that clear cut.
You sound like you have a hotline directly to God…you certainly think you know his ‘mind’ - God’s will IS…! That ‘s a bit dangerous…the world can surely do without fundamentalists. It’s not a ’ black and white’ place, you have to co-exist with other views - some who are as ‘sure’ of their DIFFERENT ‘facts’ about God as you are…
 
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