Female priests and patriarchy

[Thorolfr]

The Apostles could only pass on the authority they were given. They could not simply take a power that Christ did not entrust to them.

There is zero evidence that Christ gave the Apostles authority to ordain women. Zero, None. Without that authority, the Pope can no more make up a power to ordain women than he could to change the moon into cheese.

Arguments based on an absence of evidence are not very strong. If there is no evidence, we can’t say that Christ did not entrust the apostles with the ability to ordain women or that “women can’t be priests.” We can only say that we don’t know whether they can be priests and we don’t know whether Christ gave his apostles the power to ordain women. From Wikipedia:

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam ), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents “a lack of contrary evidence”), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes the possibility that there may have been an insufficient investigation to prove that the proposition is either true or false. It also does not allow for the possibility that the answer is unknowable, only knowable in the future, or neither completely true nor completely false.

 

[edwest211]

Pope John Paul II was quite clear:

"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

"Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing. "

Source: Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994) | John Paul II

 

[John10]

As in any organization, there will always be some bad elements who do not reflect the values and beliefs of our Catholic Church.

However the important part for me is to know that Christ lifted woman and reaffirmed women’s dignity, first and foremost by giving us His Blessed Mother to all humankind.

Not to mention, she is the first to be redeemed and the first believer.

 

[awesomecatholic]

I am all for women getting involved in other roles in the Church, but women cannot be priests. The priest is a representation of Christ and Christ gave the Apostles power to administer the Sacraments and of course, they were all male. The Church is the bride of Christ.

 

[Thorolfr]

As in any organization, there will always be some bad elements who do not reflect the values and beliefs of our Catholic Church.

Most people wouldn’t consider St. Thomas Aquinas to be part of “some bad elements who do not reflect the values and beliefs of our Catholic Church.” Not to mention that some of the Bible verses that Aquinas used to make his case for the intellectual inferiority of women came from Paul.

And this kind of view of women is hardly unique to some Catholics. John Calvin said similar things about women. And women weren’t even allowed to vote any place in the United States until they were enfranchised in the Wyoming Territory in 1869 and in Utah in 1870. This was no doubt based on a view that women weren’t able to think rationally about things like politics. It wasn’t until 1920 that women were allowed to vote in federal elections.

 

[ATraveller]

None of the apostolic churches have ordained women (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox)… And I noticed that all those churches who did almost immediately (over time) became very liberal in their theology

I wouldn’t describe the Assemblies of God as liberal. They still discourage the consumption of alcohol in addition to the topics of abortion, marriage, euthanasia and the afterlife.

 

[John10]

Not to mention that some of the Bible verses that Aquinas used to make his case for the intellectual inferiority of women came from Paul.

It is easy to take a few verses and try to draw a conclusion about women being inferior, but there are so many verses that run counter to this common understanding.

We start near the beginning of the Bible:

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (NIV, Genesis 2:18)

Then in Genesis 2:27-28 and Genesis 5:1-2 they were created in the likeness of God.

In Genesis 3:16-19, when they were both booted out of the Garden, both were punished by God.

In the OT we have writings and examples of influential women, such as: Deborah, Esther, Hannah, Huldah, Jochebed, Miriam, Noadiah, Rachel, Rebekah, Rahab, Ruth and Sarah

In the 10 Commandments we also see that we need to honor both of our parents: Exodus 20:12

In the NT Mary and Elizabeth were models of virtue and faithfulness as both put their trust in God: Luke 1:26-45.

Jesus allowed women to travel with him and the Apostles, Luke 8:1-3, though women were normally relegated to just staying at home.

“Proper” Jews didn’t talk with Samaritans, and especially the women, but Jesus had a long talk with the woman at the well: John 4:4-30, 39-42.

Women were generally not well educated, nor given roles in religion, but a lady named Mary sat at the feet of Jesus while he taught, and he suggested her sister Martha do the same: Luke 10:38-42.

In the early church women were held as near-equals and given positions of authority: Acts 1:12-14, 9:36, 16:14, 18:24-26, 21:7-9, Romans 16:1-16.

We also have that there is no difference based on gender, status or wealth, for example, in the early Christian church: Galatians 3:26-29.

Not to mention that as I said before women were the very first witness of Christ resurrection.

Secondly even saints can make mistakes, they are after all human.

 

[esieffe]

the Twelve ordained their bachelor buddies

I think think the first part of your post about precedent is odd since it was at the very beginning of Christianity. That WAS the precedent for the topic at hand. The portion of the text you listed above is just plain irreverent and disrespectful.

 

[stpurl]

Admittedly I have not read all the replies in the thread, but has no one brought up the plain and simple fact that the Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women?

It’s not like, “The Church doesn’t have the desire” or “the Church wants to keep it all male”, or “The Church has decided based on the view of men”, it is "The Church has no authority to ordain women.

From whom does the Church derive her authority on earth? From herself? No. Then from God? Yes.

If the Church has no authority to ordain women, it is because God has not given her said authority.

God has also not given her the authority to marry two men to each other, or to confect the Eucharist with beer and pretzels, or to hold sacramental confession via Skype.

It all comes down to, “Will you accept God’s authority over man’s? (or woman’s)?”

 

[edwest211]

I did. characters

 

[Thorolfr]

Admittedly I have not read all the replies in the thread, but has no one brought up the plain and simple fact that the Church has NO AUTHORITY to ordain women?

It’s only been brought up about ten times (I’m just guessing since I didn’t count how many times it was mentioned).

 

[stpurl]

That all? But since people are still arguing that the Church hasn’t explained to them ‘why we can’t have female priests’ it seems it hasn’t quite penetrated. . .

 

[halogirl]

Basically this - there is a priest in our diocese who very regularly talks about how one day there might be married priests or female priests. I like things the way they are . I love my dad and he’s been a good provider but we have always had a difficult rship and I’ve had more Father / daughter moments with priests in a year than in my whole life time with my actual dad. It’s a vocation like no other

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

Not to mention that some of the Bible verses that Aquinas used to make his case for the intellectual inferiority of women came from Paul.

It is easy to take a few verses and try to draw a conclusion about women being inferior, but there are so many verses that run counter to this common understanding.

We start near the beginning of the Bible:

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (NIV, Genesis 2:18)

That verse from Genesis is one of the ones used by St. Thomas Aquinas to make his case. As I quoted above:

To begin to understand his position, we must ask why Aquinas thinks women intellectually inferior in the first place. Scripture is likely his first guide. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:10 that “man was not created for the sake of woman, but woman was created for the sake of man.” This passage echoes Genesis 2:18,19: “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will give him a helpmate.” Aquinas reasons from these scriptural passages that when one thing exists for the sake of another, it is inferior to that other.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Can you see how unsatisfactory it is to those who want our unity in Christ to be manifest in the governance of the Church? In Judaism, men bore the sign of the covenant, but the covenant of Baptism includes men and women. Why reintroduce the distinction?

Huh? So are you saying there should be women priests?

 

[RealisticCatholic]

For the Catholic, the best argument against women priests should be: Because the Magisterium has said so.

For the general Christian, the best argument against women priests should be: Look to all the ancient apostolic communities in existence today, and do they ordain women priests? Not just Roman Catholic but Eastern Catholic. Eastern Christians from the Syriac, Greek, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Coptic, and Ethiopic traditions. Not only Catholic but the Byzantine Orhtodox, and the Oriental Orthodox, as well as the Assyrian Church of the East.

This should settle it pretty nicely.

 

[John10]

Correct, however it is clear both male and female were made to the likeness and image of God. It also says helper not slave.

 

[Lea101]

When people ask why, they’re asking for the reasoning behind male priests.

When someone asks why contraception is a sin, we don’t just say ‘because God says so and we can’t change it’, but we explain the theology behind it.

 

[Lea101]

I would find that very hard to believe, after all Christians both early and today have a great amount of reverence and respect for Mary, the Mother of God. Not to mention the fact that the first witness of Christ resurrection were indeed women.

? Their reverence for Mary does not mean that they would respect all women though.

His claim is true actually, there were pretty dark beliefs (eg St Clement of Alexandria I think) early Christians held onto which the current Church has acknowledged. Anyway, if you Google you would find pretty alarming quotes.

People were actually debating if women were made in the image of God, or if they had souls.

It’s not a stretch to say that they thought women were inferior in certain ways, because that’s their cultural views at the time.

 

[Brendan]

Arguments based on an absence of evidence are not very strong.

In this case, the argument requires a positive determination. It is specifically is regard to the question “Does the Church have the authority”

This is especially true, in that the Church itself has specifically DENIED that it has the authority, and did so based on the records of the teachings that have, in fact, been handed down from the Apostles ( Sacred Tradition).

So it follow burden of proof would fall on those who claim that Christ did, in fact, give such authority the Church.