Femininity = chaos, masculinity = order?

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BlueKumul said:
This is what Jordan Peterson says, and it’s quite popular in internet culture. But is this even close to truth?
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It’s true in the sense that these are Jungian archetypal symbols that help explain various forces in the world and within ourselves the understanding of which helps us to deal with them.

Feminine = chaos is symbolic of change, renewal, exploration of ideas, bringing forth new life.

Masculinity = order is symbolic of structure, traditions, maintaining the status quo.

Both are considered good in balance. No order = No stability or tradition, No chaos = No exploration or new life.

Like any type of symbolism, it will either resonate or fail to resonate with particular individuals in helping them make sense of the world. If not helpful, there are plenty of philosophical ideas to explore.
BlueKumul said:
Most violent crime is committed by men, so I see men as the more chaotic sex.I don’t mean to bash men or masculinity, but in an extreme form, it is really chaos.
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It’s not about women being one and men being another. There are feminine and masculine sides of each of us. A violent man is attempting to bring forth a destructive change and lacks the order that self-mastery provides.

For Catholics, we can find this balance by looking at our personal virtues and vices to see what needs strengthening or moderation.
 
And here I was still trying to understand why I’m from Venus and men are from Mars! 😂😂😂
 
Yeah, I think the same. Girls’ room are always tidier, and they are more obedient to their parents than boys.

And of course we’re all individuals, some women are super chaotic (like Britney Spears) and some men are very orderly (like most monks)
 
If I tried to use an analogy for what @Sarcelle is saying, I’d say this : imagine a tiny insect landing on a bath towel laid on a beach. To it, the bath towel would be chaos; an endless, meaningless stretch of huge cotton loops, some standing straight, some randomly bent into all kinds of shapes, where finding its way would be near impossible. To us, the bath towel is a limited flat surface whose meaning and use we easily perceive. Maybe, if I’m not misunderstanding Sarcelle, one could say that chaos – or maybe rather the perception of chaos – is a question of scale.
 
This is actually a philosophical matter.

On the one hand, he id proposing the world to be described by how we perceive it.

On the other hand, I am conveying what the Church teaches, that is, to describe the world by how it really is.
 
This is true in my marriage. Not that I am chaotic, but that my vocation (SAHM) requires me to deal with more chaos (the kids & what they do to my house!) than my husband (who works his job 8-5 - Less chaos in this) and then then he is home restores order (Through discipline if needed but even just through his presence). So yes - I see myself as handling chaos more easily than my husband. He’d be more annoyed by the continuo neediness and interruptions and lack of predictability that constitutes mothering small children and babies. He handles more order in his life & brings order into the home. I am deeply grateful for that!!
 
I’m seeing it as the exact reverse. I think you are describing the world from your limited perspective, while @Sarcelle describes it as it really is - and warning us that what we perceive from our own point of view is just that, a point of view. 🤷‍♀️
 
I know that.

I meant how do you measure chaos in humans?

If women are supposed to be chaotic, how do you define and measure chaos in women?
 
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Having a messy room is (quite benign) chaos. Vandalism is chaos. Rape and sexual harassment are chaos in ten dimensions.

You don’t need a maths degree to understand that!
 
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Chaos and order are not necessarily bad in themselves. They are themes or concepts that are found in various aspects of life. Chaos can be good in some areas, such as artistic endeavor and creativity. Of course, if you are talking about morality or society, chaos is usually negative and to be avoided. But chaos itself is simply a trait/quality that can be said of numerous things. Heath Ledger’s Joker is the embodiment of chaos, and he is a villain. But I enjoy watching him as a villain and think that his portrayal gives some insight into the underlying psyche of humanity. So that’s a good thing. Context, context, context.

As for feminity being wedded more to chaos, and masculinity to order, I think one should avoid such neat categories, since reality is generally more complex. I do however associate chaos with water or the oceans. And order with the land, which is more fixed. It can be fun to play around in this sandbox of ideas but I wouldn’t pin my objective assessment of reality too much on them.

But just an aside: if men are more “chaotic” because they act out violence, maybe this is because they are not being truly themselves, truly gentlemen? Maybe they are abusing their feminine side? Who knows?
 
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Dimmesdale said:
But just an aside: if men are more “chaotic” because they act out violence, maybe this is because they are not being truly themselves, truly gentlemen? Maybe they are abusing their feminine side? Who knows?
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I wouldn’t necessarily associate the chaotic trait with violence or the orderly trait with peace.

The Nazis were very well organized and acheived an exceptionally high level of obedience, discipline and commitment. If they had been chaotic, the death camps would never have come to be.

One shouldn’t confuse the message with the vehicle. Both chaos and order can serve both good and bad.

But I stick with my previous statement that the original proposition of this thread has it the wrong way round. I say order is more a female attribute. Women are more natural home makers. In early human societies, men hunted while women farmed. When you farm you control and create order. Everything has its place and you plan ahead and know exactly what is going to happen next. When you hunt you deal with the unexpected and need to improvize all the time. This has left an imprint on the way our brains work.
 
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So more “feminine” guys would be more aggressive in your opinion? Interesting. The aggressive men I’ve known were all macho types.

Father is important to help a young boy develop control over his nature. So is mother for a young girl.
 
BlueKumul said:
So more “feminine” guys would be more aggressive in your opinion? Interesting. The aggressive men I’ve known were all macho types.
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I think sometimes men act aggressive to compensate for something, or to appear more manly because they mistakenly believe agressivesness is a sign of masculinity. Men who are more obviously masculine let their masculinity speak for itself, and do not need to assert it but can afford to be more caring without fearing that could be mistaken for insufficient masculinity.

Counsellors and self help groups dealing with masculinity issues are often about seeking alternative channels to express and build awareness of the positive sides of masculinity, so that men who may have a history with such issues can overcome self-doubts over their masculinity without being violent.
 
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I know that in the East femininity is the Active force, and masculinity is the Passive force, or counterpart. In the West I think this is flipped.

Mother Nature is violent, chaotic, the embodiment of raw power in other, words, if you look at the Goddess Kaalii. A very lethal force.

The Father is the Sky: Pure, unlimited, the realm of pure, peaceful, passive Spirit.

Dunno if that helps, that’s what I’ve learned anyway from my acquaintance with eastern thought.
 
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