Feminism, can any good come from it?

[jman507]

I guess when it comes down to it, every system no matter how it is set up is going to have it’s winners and losers. Winners are going to figure out how things work, hopefully get in the right place at the right time, take advantage of the structure. Losers won’t be able to figure out how to nagivate everything and/or end up at the wrong place at the wrong time. There are good things and bad things about with any set up for everyone.

I think there are a lot of good things to say about women’s sufferage, which have probably already been said here and accepted. Though, I remember Chesterton not being too happy with the women’s sufferage movement, not because they don’t have any less ability when it comes to voting than men, but because it would only lead to a massive increase of government. It’s more important too keep your priority to your family than to the government. T

he better focus would be to keep the parents focused on caring for the family, than trying to make the government more and more dependant for caring for the wealthfare of the family, since at best it can only provide poor alternatives. The government is a beast that would only love to be more depended upon. It is like a bad monopoly, that sets the price of itself, while trying to figure out more ways it can be of more ineffecient service. Why does it need to be effecient? It has no competitiors saying it’ll give better service for cheaper.

I don’t want to make this much longer so I’ll cut off at this point. As far as I’m concerned with what we got, is what we have to work with. If you can see the advantages of the way things are set up, take them. As for me, I may see fault with how it is set up, I’d see fault with anything, it’s just the nature of it. My opinion is if your vocation is marriage, keep your focus on how you can care for your family, along with helping the community, and being as close to self-sufficient as prudently possible. Oh oh, and not to forget, give God a chance to help lead you.

 

[blessedtoo]

She was so far from understanding what I was saying about the dignity of women, that I wasn’t sure what she was fighting for; I only knew she was fighting against ‘patriarchal society’. She seemed flabbergasted that I could see in myself some inherent value that was not dependent on what I can/will potentially do in the world, but rather on how well I follow God’s will in my life. She actually didn’t see any value in motherhood, but thought it wasted women’s potential. She was angry, almost bitter. She was so far from the happiness and joy I experience in my own life. She was a characteristic product of modern radical feminism.

THIS is what we’re up against, all of us, as Catholics. We’re called to show to the world that their standards of living are not the right ones–that there is an unsurpassable JOY–in Christ–to being human which they have not found. Such bickering amongst ourselves that really amounts to nothing more than your wishing we didn’t use the word ‘feminist’ to describes ourselves is silly and irresponsible in such a situation.

It is not “silly” because this is FEMINISM as we know it, regardless of how or why it started. This gal IS the feminist movement. She is not the exception, she is the rule. Perhaps this is why some of us feel the hair on the backs of our necks stand up at the mere mention of this word.

We need to find common ground–and part of that common ground is an appreciation of the first feminists, and even an appreciation of what may have been a byproduct of the modern feminist movement.

I couldn’t sit and tell my classmate at dinner last night that NOTHING good came of feminism; that’d make me an absolute hypocrite. Our university was all-male and became co-ed in 1972; I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for those crazy bra-burning feminists! Nor would I probably be studying political science and theology (with an interest in religion, ethics & public policy) IF early feminists had not earned for women the right to vote.

Probably gonna get flack here but I think this argument could also be made to defend the early Nazi movement. Hitler reinvigorated a Germany that was dying and the citizenry responded favorably to these developments. I think it’s safe to say that was a positive by-product of the Third Reich. Just as, arguably, the right to vote for women may have been a positive by-product of the early suffragists. However, as with Hitler, we now see the long-term affects of a movement that missed the mark from the very beginning. Forty million abortions since 1974, significantly more than Nazi Germany, right? And who is directly responsible for this? I won’t even go into the litany of the other disatrous by-products of feminism, but I will say that just as a German today would be quite reluctant to say there was any positive outcome from Nazism, so do some of us feel that to associate with the term “feminism” is equally appalling.

 

[blessedtoo]

Women should be protected not because they can’t protect themselves, but because they shouldn’t have to protect themselves. What are men for, if not that? We need something to protect; why do you try to break our being, just so you can feel strong?

I truly think this statement says it all, and almost moves me to tears. In our culture, the goal is to prove that everyone can do everything THE SAME at any time. Big deal. For what reason? In one of the books I linked to on this thread, the author stated that no amount of sexual harassment legislation will ever protect women quite the way chivalry did even as recently as the 1950’s. I could not agree more.

The better focus would be to keep the parents focused on caring for the family, than trying to make the government more and more dependant for caring for the wealthfare of the family, since at best it can only provide poor alternatives. The government is a beast that would only love to be more depended upon. It is like a bad monopoly, that sets the price of itself, while trying to figure out more ways it can be of more ineffecient service. Why does it need to be effecient? It has no competitiors saying it’ll give better service for cheaper.

Beautiful post. I would add that the feminist movement, along with the homosexual movement, having “redifined” religion and remade it in their own images, have endowed the state with the power of a god. In the other book I linked to, Ungodly Rage, it is clear that the feminists of the 70’s and 80’s were out to remove all traces of maleness from their version of God. At this point, in the 21st century, it seems to me the god many folks prefer is the one they can pursuade with their votes.

 

[distracted]

It is not “silly” because this is FEMINISM as we know it, regardless of how or why it started. This gal IS the feminist movement. She is not the exception, she is the rule. Perhaps this is why some of us feel the hair on the backs of our necks stand up at the mere mention of this word.

Probably gonna get flack here but I think this argument could also be made to defend the early Nazi movement. Hitler reinvigorated a Germany that was dying and the citizenry responded favorably to these developments. I think it’s safe to say that was a positive by-product of the Third Reich. Just as, arguably, the right to vote for women may have been a positive by-product of the early suffragists. However, as with Hitler, we now see the long-term affects of a movement that missed the mark from the very beginning. Forty million abortions since 1974, significantly more than Nazi Germany, right? And who is directly responsible for this? I won’t even go into the litany of the other disatrous by-products of feminism, but I will say that just as a German today would be quite reluctant to say there was any positive outcome from Nazism, so do some of us feel that to associate with the term “feminism” is equally appalling.

 

[distracted]

distracted:
i also hate the word feminist, though i consider myself 2b one, to some extent. I believe women should b treated w/ respect & i believe they are more NOW than b4 the movement… (again, to some extent…). However, abortion “on demand” is the worst end result of that movement… & how anti-feminine can one be than to be in favor of women killing themselves & their babies? Women have abortions usually out of desperation… Abortion “doctors” (??) exploit those sad situatiions that make women feel they have no choice… Choice… what an “ironic” word… Most women who abort do so because they feel they are up against a wall… & have no real choice. That’s not to say they DON"T have choices, but to say that they FEEL they have none… which for all intents & purposes, may as well be the same thing… Adoption is sometimes not given to thme as an option. Many people say “How could you go through 9 months carrying a child & then give him/her up?” I’ve heard this argument many times… It shuts the door on something that can be a very good experience in the long run…
society seems 2 tell women they must be more than mothers… then, of course, when they become mothers “accidentally”, of course, abortion is put forth as their “only choice”…
Anyway, thank God for the Catholic Church, which saves people from themselves…

 

[mdgspencer]

I think that in some ways now fminism is throwing things out of balance. Feminists call for a greater role for women in the Church, even for women priests, but few wonder–where are the men? Mostly women go to mass. But this is not being faced, showing a skewing of outlook. Similarly, men are no longer so interested in education, including high school and college, makng an imbalance of females in our schools. This situation seems to result from the feminization of education, so that the needs of men are not being met. Furthermore, several years ago I was on several Catholic matchmaking web sites (until I found my wife). I was surprised to see what most of the women want–the want to go out to dinner, to dances, etc. But for the most part didn’t offer much as wife. I did find a woman who says she loves to cook, is traditional, and has many other traits that perhaps are not very common among women. At least the other women didn’t say they had such interests.
These things, that involve huge areas of American life, show that feminism has had a pervasive influence on society. Some of the things it has done are good, such as equal pay with men, but often it has a very unfortunate effect.

 

[renee1258]

It is unlikely, but not impossible, that the trend toward working moms could reverse itself if mothers chose, in sufficient numbers, to stay out of the workforce. There are economic advantages to that choice just as there are to working.

My point was that when the majority of mothers moved into the workforce, it inevitably and adversely affected families with stay at home moms.

In the 1970’s I was working in mortgage banking as an underwriter. When I first started, the rule was that a working mother’s income was not counted. That was later revised to where we were counting half her income. But that practice, which now seems quaint and discriminatory, soon was dropped, and the same rules applied equally to income from either husband or wife. ECOA now mandates it.

Over the next decade or so, I noticed that far more applicants were able to qualify for home loans. Simultaneously, home prices shot up dramatically. That wasn’t so bad for two income families, although there were spending a substantial amount of their family income to put a roof over their heads. (Debt ratios kept creeping up.) For single income families, however, the change was negative. The market had turned against them; they had to cope with higher prices without dual incomes.

JimG,

When we bought a house we bought it solely on my husband’s income. I have the potential of making more then him, but that’s only potential not reality. When we both worked, everyone suffered and not just family also our careers. You can’t be two places at once, especially with an hour commute and the demand to stay until the task or the product is done in this global economy.

Any access to education had little to do with political or social movement, just simply our industries have move from physical labor to informational in which it is more applicable for women to participate in.

Domestic violence is up I believe due to recent feminism. Women attach themsevles through sexual activity/cohabitation without feeling out the suitor first, if you want to call them that. We invest so much emotionally and even financially before the even know if the “guy” is right for us. So we end up stuck with a bum unable to leave. It’s like these feminists want us to be in messed up relationships, so we are always dependent on them and have them be our savior when we finally get out.

 

[MariaG]

I think there are a lot of good things to say about women’s sufferage, which have probably already been said here** and accepted**.

Maybe you should read the thread. That women’s suffrage brought any good is actually a matter of contention and had NOT been accepted here in this thread.

 

[MariaG]

I think that in some ways now fminism is throwing things out of balance. Feminists call for a greater role for women in the Church, even for women priests, but few wonder–where are the men? Mostly women go to mass. But this is not being faced, showing a skewing of outlook. Similarly, men are no longer so interested in education, including high school and college, makng an imbalance of females in our schools. This situation seems to result from the feminization of education, so that the needs of men are not being met. Furthermore, several years ago I was on several Catholic matchmaking web sites (until I found my wife). I was surprised to see what most of the women want–the want to go out to dinner, to dances, etc. But for the most part didn’t offer much as wife. I did find a woman who says she loves to cook, is traditional, and has many other traits that perhaps are not very common among women. At least the other women didn’t say they had such interests.
These things, that involve huge areas of American life, show that feminism has had a pervasive influence on society. Some of the things it has done are good, such as equal pay with men, but often it has a very unfortunate effect.

And since this thread is also about 1800’s and 1900’s, would you include woman’s suffrage in that which is good?

But I do agree with you that within the last 50 years, although good has also come from “feminism”, the radical feminist has thrown much our of balance and caused much negative.

 

[Sixtus]

Women should be protected not because they can’t protect themselves, but because they shouldn’t have to protect themselves. What are men for, if not that? We need something to protect; why do you try to break our being, just so you can feel strong?

I am yet to meet a woman who is in need of protection.

 

[JimG]

JimG,

When we bought a house we bought it solely on my husband’s income. I have the potential of making more then him, but that’s only potential not reality. When we both worked, everyone suffered and not just family also our careers. You can’t be two places at once, especially with an hour commute and the demand to stay until the task or the product is done in this global economy.
. . . .
Domestic violence is up I believe due to recent feminism. Women attach themsevles through sexual activity/cohabitation without feeling out the suitor first, if you want to call them that. We invest so much emotionally and even financially before the even know if the “guy” is right for us. So we end up stuck with a bum unable to leave. It’s like these feminists want us to be in messed up relationships, so we are always dependent on them and have them be our savior when we finally get out.

Yes. ECOA also resulted in a lot more loan approvals for cohabiting couples. They were not able to commit to each other but we expected them to commit jointly to a 30 year mortgage! I don’t have stats but I suspect the default rates on those may have been higher than average. And a woman who signed onto a mortgage with a non-spouse ended up being even more stuck with him than otherwise, limiting her options further.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

What are you referring to, exactly?

The legacy I’m referring to: “Anthony tirelessly campaigned for suffrage, poor and professional women’s employment rights, the liberation of prostitutes, children’s rights, abolition of slavery and the death penalty, and temperance…She illegally voted, took part in the Underground Railway, and sheltered a domestic-violence victim and her child.”

There really should be a Susan B. Anthony day in our country.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

i want to know what about the historical feminist movement was good.

did the catholic church support any aspect of the feminist movement of the 19th and 20th century? wasn’t dominated by white protestant women? has womens’ entrance into the workforce led to more animosity between men and women?

I think the Industrial Revolution played a greater part in liberating women than Christianity.

 

[rpp]

Classical feminism, mid 1800s to about 1925, did much to promote a good and proper respect for women. It fought against the perception that women were inferior. Instead, it changed attitudes to help people understand that women deserve equal dignity with men.

But in the late 192os and early 1030s, the movement began to morph into one that embrace and promoted misandrism. Today, the modern feminist movement is based on misadrism, men being demoted to the role of sperm donor (for now) and a optional fashion accesory. Modern feminism tells us that men are not required to raise children, that a woman is the best “man” for the job. It tells men to “get in touch with their feminine side” but there is no corresponding exhotation for women to “embrace their inner masculinity”.

(As a side note. I am a man. I do not have a feminine side and never will.)

The modern feminist movement is responsible for the murder of more babies than can be imagined. It actively promote homosexuality bot directly and by emasculating boys before they can be men, and defeminizing girls before they are women.

Modern Feminism is the ultimate enemy of the Church.

The Classical Feminist movement did much good.

The Modern Feminist moverment has done more evil than any single political or social movement in human history.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

And since this thread is also about 1800’s and 1900’s, would you include woman’s suffrage in that which is good?

But I do agree with you that within the last 50 years, although good has also come from “feminism”, the radical feminist has thrown much our of balance and caused much negative.

You have mentioned that the right to vote for women was a good thing for women. I agree but on some of the Men’s Rights Forums they complain that women should not be able to vote unless they serve in the military. That was always one of the conditions in this country for men who voted during the earlier days when America was founded. That and owning land. I think the men have a valid complaint…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

i consider myself a feminist (and a devout Catholic). I am pro-life. I am feminist in the sense that i believe women have virtually always been treated like 2nd class citizens in this country & in many others and that that is not the way God wants it to be. God loves women as much as he loves men, which, of course, should go without saying…
I believe the feminist movement has caused a lot of harm… To me, the biggest problem is how they don’t acknowledge that motherhood is the highest calling for a woman.

It’s not easy to see how it can be, if the married life is a lower state of life than virginity (which is apparently de fide). If motherhood is that high in excellence, the ideal state for a woman would seem to be virginity with lots of children ​

Something does not add up AFAICS ##

They don’t appreciate women who stay at home to raise their children (but then, the rest of society, generally speaking, doesn’t either)…
I seem to be running out of space… but thought i would put in my 2 cents… God bless…

 

[MariaG]

You have mentioned that the right to vote for women was a good thing for women. I agree but on some of the Men’s Rights Forums they complain that women should not be able to vote unless they serve in the military. That was always one of the conditions in this country for men who voted during the earlier days when America was founded. That and owning land. I think the men have a valid complaint…

IF men still were required to serve in the military, yes they would have a valid complaint.

However, since neither men nor women are required to serve in the military today yet both are still allowed to vote, this is not a valid complaint today.

 

[MariaG]

Classical feminism, mid 1800s to about 1925, did much to promote a good and proper respect for women. It fought against the perception that women were inferior. Instead, it changed attitudes to help people understand that women deserve equal dignity with men.

But in the late 192os and early 1030s, the movement began to morph into one that embrace and promoted misandrism. Today, the modern feminist movement is based on misadrism, men being demoted to the role of sperm donor (for now) and a optional fashion accesory. Modern feminism tells us that men are not required to raise children, that a woman is the best “man” for the job. It tells men to “get in touch with their feminine side” but there is no corresponding exhotation for women to “embrace their inner masculinity”.

(As a side note. I am a man. I do not have a feminine side and never will.)

The modern feminist movement is responsible for the murder of more babies than can be imagined. It actively promote homosexuality bot directly and by emasculating boys before they can be men, and defeminizing girls before they are women.

Modern Feminism is the ultimate enemy of the Church.

The Classical Feminist movement did much good.

The Modern Feminist moverment has done more evil than any single political or social movement in human history.

:clapping:

Finally, someone who thinks some good came out of the historic feminist movement and is able to separate out the two really, quite separate idealogically driven movements.

Note: IF you have commented postively on this, it was not directed at you, there just seems to be an extraordinary number, as far as I am concerned, who seem to see no good from women suffrage, or are so bent on bashing the bad, they fail to mention the good.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

:clapping:

Finally, someone who thinks some good came out of the historic feminist movement and is able to separate out the two really, quite separate idealogically driven movements.

Note: IF you have commented postively on this, it was not directed at you, there just seems to be an extraordinary number, as far as I am concerned, who seem to see no good from women suffrage, or are so bent on bashing the bad, they fail to mention the good.

Almost all of the early American feminists were involved with he “Temperance Movement”. Too bad the “Temperance Movement was unsuccessful”.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Has anyone ever read Elizabeth Cady Stanton’s “The Woman’s Bible”? I have the book but have never read it.