Feminisms effect on women

[JonW]

Hi Naztakuan,

I think you’re right about “feminism” as a concept as opposed to an isolated self-contained movement in a historical moment. However, I don’t think you go back far enough. Actually, the concept, in theory and practice, has always existed, in varying degrees and instantiations. History is rife with examples of the elevation of women to levels of power, esteem, and possibility equal to that of men at any time. I happen to think that the role of women in the traditional trustee and domestic family models is just such an instance, and a shining one at that. I think it’s also pretty clear that the 60’s liberation movement, which seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and from which modern feminism is a direct result, played and continues to play a decisive role in the breakdown of the domestic family model into the atomic family model. It was an inevitable descent anyway, and the liberation movement of the 60’s had some very good results I think, but the way it has played out has been more devastating than liberating.

Next, I think, if I’m not mistaken, that your interpretation of Genesis is a bit problematic. The text is more rich in context than what your post implies. What you describe as the punishment is actually the context of the punishment and not the punishment itself. This is seen in reference to what the text is pointing towards, i.e., Christ crushing the serpent’s head. Christ’s redemption of humanity was a result of the Fall, and an inevitable one, but not the punishment for the Fall. Similary, the structure of the family with man as head is a much-needed structural imposition of God in order to balance the “enmity” that is actually part of the punishment for the Fall.

Pornography: Your Marxist analysis of this issue is relevant, I think, but hardly the whole story. As you say, “erotic art” has always been a part of human culture, but as I’m sure we can agree, the demarcation between erotic art and pornography is subtle but profound. Technology, capitalism and greed are all part of the porn industry, but not its cause. This actually reminds me of your analysis of the Genesis text. Pornography, alongside but separate from, erotic art, has also always existed. Our modern media-driven pornography is well accomodated by our technological apparati and the need to compete economically in a capitalist economy, but the pervasiveness of pornography into every part and facet of modern American culture could not exist if not for unrestricted permissiveness in popular morality. This is a direct result of the various modern liberation movements of which “feminism” (of our modern variety) has been a part. While I can appreciate a laconic poitical barb as much as the next person, I think your quip about oil is a little disingenuous at best. Audio visual media would not have been possible without air either, or ingenuity for that matter.

Abortion: It is fair to say that the causes of legalized and widespread abortion are different in every culture. For that reason, it is probably best to address possible causes for abortion in our own culture, American and European. Ultimately, I think, there is one cause for all abortive practice: lack of respect for life from conception to natural death, or confusion as to when life begins. Since various cultures come to the knowledge of the sanctity of human life in different ways and at different times, I would urge that our discussion be restricted to the culture we share. I’m not sure where you’re from, so I don’t know that this is even possible. Let me know. I’m American. For now, I would only stress that it may be a little naive to assume that all Americans are naive about other cultures, or that this particular kind of naivete is singularly American. Suffice it so say for the moment that my view about abortion and how or whether or not modern feminist liberation movements have effected our attitudes and practices of it are along the same lines as what I said about pornography. Similarly for divorce and cohabitation. Abuse is probably another matter, but I’m open to interpretations and argument.

God Bless

Jon Winterburn

 

[JonW]

BTW, I odn’t mean to imply that my own reading of the Genesis text is not problematic! Frankly, I don’t know enough about it.

 

[blessedtoo]

Now as for the lopsided statistics you guys like to blame on feminism

Pornography: This has very little to to do with feminism and more to do with technology( no television, no internet, no cameras, no film,no dvds). Human beings have made erotic art for a very long time however they didn’t have the mass production of film and the internet. VCRs weren’t around for most of the 20th century. If you want to blame anything, blame greed and capitalism and the industrial revolution.Remember, oil is what makes audio visual media possible.

As Jon articulately stated, the difference between erotic art and porn is profound. Degrading moral standards, unlimited access to birth control, the sexual revolution (in part, spearheaded by the women’s movement) and sexual “equality”, and the objectification of women are all significant factors in the rampant spread of porn. If there are no women WILLING to degrade themselves in this way for money, porn would be a non-issue.

Abortion: Also a silly little niavette on the American’s part. When you travel the world, you realize that people do things different. Abortion may not have been legal or acceptable in the United states but You’ll find that the Japanese and the Chinese have been practicing abortion for a long time as a part of a standard medical practice. In Japan and China, illigitimate children have no place. If you are not married, then the father has no obligations. Prostitution was a standared government monitored business. Women were property and in their case, keeping the child was not an option. This still continues today. It has nothing to do with feminism. If a highschool girl gets pregnant she has to have it aborted. I have never heard of teen mothers in their society. These women don’t see abortion as some sort of liberating experience. They see it as a result of a capitalistic competitive society.

As Jon stated, it would be off topic to debate the abortion issue of other countries, especially those of Japan and China, as I am unaware of any massive feminist movement having taken place in these countries. In addition, we are not talking about FORCED abortions in this country. We are speaking of the voluntary choice of a mother to kill her unborn child. If you can’t see that feminism is the PRIMARY and perhaps most agressive supporter of abortion then you are simply ignoring facts.

Abuse: Now it’s very naive to compare abuse in the early 1900s to the late 1900s. Obviously back then no one cared about what went on behind closed doors at your house. There was none of that calling the cops because your husband beat you or your child calling child services. it simply wasn’t recorded. And it certainly wasn’t addressed in films and literature like it is now. So the statistics are unreliable.

You have done here what you have accused others of doing; making grand sweeping generalizations without any factual proof. NO ONE cared? Let’s allow for the fact that domestic violence went under reported. Let’s concede that, in past generations, rather than involve the law, people may have chosen to handle it within the family, for better or worse. That would still not explain the enormous jump from 1970 to 2000. Funny how the statistics rose in conjunction with the momentum gained by the feminist movement.

Divorce: The difference in divorce now and divorce then is that women had no choice whether or not to marry.

There you go again. NO CHOICE? Do you mean that every woman in America was married prior to the feminist movement? Women HAD choices. If you look at statistics from the 50’s, you will see that the percentage of women who went to college was surprisingly high. Women typically worked for a few years before marriage and often, for a few years after, until children were born. What would make you think that women themselves did not choose marriage?

Women got married because they couldn’t work and support themselves.

Wrong. Women got married because they chose to marry. Are you suggesting that women, prior to the 60’s, were forbidden to work? I suspect that if we took a poll right here on CAF, we would find that most people have, in their ancestral histories, tales of mothers, grandmothers, and great-grandmother who not only worked, but supported themselves either as single or married women.

There are still women today who are trapped in marriages with abusive men. Some of which are on this forum. The divorce rate has to do with the ability to live independantly.** Marriage back then wasn’t always about love but about finances.**

You are contradicting yourself here. We live in an enlightened age where women can and do support themselves without the help of a spouse. So why are women still in abusive marriages? Can’t women NOW support themselves?

But it got to a point where a growing capitalist system is simply not going to support a bunch of able bodied adult women if they do not work.

The “growing capitalist” system has also lost it’s ability to support the family due to the flood of women into the workplace. It is no longer legal to pay a male head of household a family wage so he can support his family while his wife stays home and raises the children. Women in the workplace carry a higher price tag than men as they are more likely to take time off for personal reasons, sick time, and pregnancy. Women require medical services more often than men. Women who work will need child care for their children. Women will take years off from their careers to stay home and take care of the children. One could argue that the massive influx of women into the work force has changed the face of capitalism completely and now it may be impossible for women to opt for more traditional lifestyles.

 

[Naztakuan]

Hi Naztakuan,

Pornography: Your Marxist analysis of this issue is relevant, I think, but hardly the whole story. As you say, “erotic art” has always been a part of human culture, but as I’m sure we can agree, the demarcation between erotic art and pornography is subtle but profound. Technology, capitalism and greed are all part of the porn industry, but not its cause. This actually reminds me of your analysis of the Genesis text. Pornography, alongside but separate from, erotic art, has also always existed. Our modern media-driven pornography is well accomodated by our technological apparati and the need to compete economically in a capitalist economy, but the pervasiveness of pornography into every part and facet of modern American culture could not exist if not for unrestricted permissiveness in popular morality. This is a direct result of the various modern liberation movements of which “feminism” (of our modern variety) has been a part. While I can appreciate a laconic poitical barb as much as the next person, I think your quip about oil is a little disingenuous at best. Audio visual media would not have been possible without air either, or ingenuity for that matter.

Jon Winterburn

I’m sure that it’s common knowledge that the discovery of fossil fuels spearheaded the industrial revolution. We built cars and trains and it overall improved the American way of life. We also developed modern medicine and cleaned our water. I’m just saying that we had become prosperous and that peaked even more shortly after WW2. Times of prosperity means people tend to focus less on needs and more on leisure and entertainment. All needs are met ergo the entertainment business booms. Entertainers tend to make more than doctors or needs specialists. This is all made possible by cheap and plentiful energy. There was a time when books and literature were not readily available. There were no Barnes and Nobles or blockbusters. But cheap energy makes sale of products cheaper.
So porn is more readily available because it’s more bountiful.
Women were objectified before the modern porn industry. It wasn’t called “porn” then. It was erotica or something like that. But now it’s accesible to everyone. To say there is more porn now pertains to quantity and distribution. Lets say we take the
60s feminist movement out of the equasion. we leave in all the technological advancements, the economic progress. But lets say women never got adjustment to their pay. Abortion is still illegal. But the pill still exists. Contraceptives have been used for centuries so the absence of 60s feminism wouldn’t change that.
Porn would still exist and it would still be profitable. HOWEVER, more women would be offended by it. So it would continue to be something that men viewed underground.
After all prostitution was fully legal down south provided they were sequestered away from the “decent folk”. Remember the “white-woman slavery”? This arguement(by a white male) contested that white women couldn’t be selling their bodies of their own volition but by force. Of course these women prostituted themselves by choice as there was very little career diversity back then. You could be a housewife or a hooker with little in between.
And this is pretty consistant across the globe save many African cultures where a daughter is often regarded as needed for yearly harvest. And it’s actually pretty consistant to a theory that women are valued higher in agricultural cultures. and cultures that involve crops tend to be more level in treatment of women vs men.
In the Phillapines a huge agricultural transistion is taking place.
It is a fertile land with soil that has been tilled by the people have lived there for generations. It seems that the women there are treated equally and actively participate. In fact, they are the main force against the bulldozers who want to take them from their land and convert it into golf courts. The women are especially vehement against because they would be force to move to the city and most likely take up low wage work most likely as call girls. Until then they had worked the fields for all their needs, they did not need wages. This was true for South Africa until Places like Johanasberg was built. This is also true for Rural japanese girls. My professor actually had a student in his class who prostitued herself to pay for college. she came from agricultural Japan into the city and it was good money. When a transition is made in the economy without making a social change in the people, then that’s when more people get used. The 60’s feminism had to happen because these women demanded their financial rights. If they hadn’t, I’m sure more women would have resorted to prostitution, not less.
.

 

[Kaninchen]

Our modern media-driven pornography is well accomodated by our technological apparati and the need to compete economically in a capitalist economy, but the pervasiveness of pornography into every part and facet of modern American culture could not exist if not for unrestricted permissiveness in popular morality. This is a direct result of the various modern liberation movements of which “feminism” (of our modern variety) has been a part.

Perhaps you might spend a little more time here explaining the ‘direct result’ - just how ‘feminism’ encouraged ‘unrestricted permissiveness’?

Otherwise people might be a little concerned about things like the question of cause and effect.

 

[Kaninchen]

There are men today that look back at that time as a golden age. They got into the feminist/Hippie movement because it benafitted them sexually.
Now there were what I call feminist fanatics like Val who hated men with a passion(she shot Andy warhol. dunno why:shrug: ). But they by no means speak for all women.

It would appear that many of the early radical women of the ‘Women’s Liberation Movement’ were actually originally responding to the expectation of men in the various 60’s radical groups that they would be ‘comrades’ in whatever ‘struggle’ was going on, be available in bed and make the coffee while men discussed the ‘important’ things. In other words, the first ‘liberation’ was seen to be from ‘radical’ men!

 

[Dale_M]

If there are no women WILLING to degrade themselves in this way for money, porn would be a non-issue.

So would you blame prostitution on feminism as well?

That would still not explain the enormous jump from 1970 to 2000. Funny how the statistics rose in conjunction with the momentum gained by the feminist movement.

I am not familiar with the statistics of domestic violence. Is there an online source to which you are referring?

Women HAD choices. If you look at statistics from the 50’s, you will see that the percentage of women who went to college was surprisingly high. Women typically worked for a few years before marriage and often, for a few years after, until children were born.

Choices existed, but they were much more constrained than after feminism. I think most women in the US consider this a good thing.

The “growing capitalist” system has also lost it’s ability to support the family due to the flood of women into the workplace.

I have heard this flood of women was responsible for the tremendous growth of the economy in the 60s.

It is no longer legal to pay a male head of household a family wage so he can support his family while his wife stays home and raises the children

The problem with the “family wage” is that female heads of households didn’t get the same “family wage”.

Women in the workplace carry a higher price tag than men as they are more likely to take time off for personal reasons, sick time, and pregnancy.

Yes, because women are still the primary caregivers of children and elderly parents. Just because women carry an unfair burden doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be accomodated. Perhaps if men started pulling their weight for caregiving then there wouldn’t be a discrepancy in the amount of time off requested.

(Okay, you got me on the pregnancy part. It will be quite some time before men can pull their weight on that!)

 

[Naztakuan]

Like I said, It’s silly to blame objectification and degradation on feminisim. It does not explain prostitution, trafficking, and porn in countries where feminism has not taken its toll. And to imply that this is because somehow Americans used to be morally superior is hogwash. What about abortions in places like Russia? This is obviously a country that was affected by communism not feminism. Women are willing to degrade themselves if there is money involved if they live in desperare hopeless situations. This is no different than women who swallow condoms full of cocaine.
The women who engage in this sort of behavior usually do so for the initial payout. Eventually women wiill start to rationalize their behavior by claiming they like it or that it’s liberating. But most don’t believe that. Porn stars often have some underlying emotional problem, It’s easy money that doesn’t require much of an education. Even many radical feminists are staunchly anti-porn. They believe in unrestriced sexual activity but they also believe it should not be exploited and filmed. An interesting experience in Japan is that their porn industry has thrived for a long time but it centers les around film stars and more around the hentai market(animated) as eroticism is a big part of their culture. But the disturbing thing about hentai is that a large portion of it centers around rape and violence. Some of it depicts twelve year olds as the stars. But this is tolerated because anime porn is not real and therefore its creators are not accountable like porn filmers. But it’s still porn. Usually the adult films are behind some sort of black curtain of shame in the US. In Japan it’s behind a cutesy pink curtain with an anime girl on it. You don’t realize where you’ve ended up until you see the odd “toys” on the tables.
You cannot blame feminism for pornography if porn thrives in non feminist environments. You could blame men for porn since they are the ones who make it, sell it and profit from it. but that would be to harsh right?

 

[neat62]

You know, I do a lot of social justice work and I’m just amazed at how often I hear folks blame the victim. Susan B. Anthony fought for and demanded equality - voting rights - nobody handed them to her. She was part of a movement of women who fought against the male dominated status quo. Therefore, I don’t see how she can be much use to your argument.

Acually, I almost never watch TV and when I do it is educational. I read a lot (yes, I’m an intellectual ). I’m not whining but it certainly sounds like you are. You sound very angry and bitter. Perhaps you should look within to find the source of your obvious lack of peace and charity.

Actually, no…Susan B. Anthony was a teacher LONG before she became involved in the feminist movement. It is false to continue to perpetuate that she had “no rights” as a woman until she fought for them…as that is just a bunch of LIES!

She was a well educated woman and again, its absolute BUNK…to continue to perpetuate that she was “unable” to succeed because she was a female!

When one applies oneself, has motivation and is determined enough…obstacles don’t STOP you!

I am not anger and bitter…nor, as I stated above, do I look to blame ANYONE for my lot in life…I know what I have achieved and how…I know how I have gotten here…and IT’S NOT because I have sat at home crying about how “unfair” it is for me as a woman in the work place!

I am an executive who has gotten here…because I work hard, apply myself, have acquired the skills, knowledge and experience I need…and not because someone handed it to me simply because I am a “female”.

Sorry…but women like yourself who continue to perpetuate the “gender issue” only HURT the rest of us…as I stated previously, you are not looking for equality…because we will NEVER be EQUAL…God created us specifically to be DIFFERENT!

If you look at our DNA, and compare it to a man’s guess what? EVERYTIME, it will be different!

If you think you want to earn more money…then go acquire more skills to do so…you think you are treated “unfairly” then QUIT your job and go find another…STOP, however, making lame excuses and looking for ridiculous things to blame!

It’s called Personal Responsibility and Accountability…something I know “intellects” like yourself generally don’t GET!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

 

[Tick_Dawk]

Actually, no…Susan B. Anthony was a teacher LONG before she became involved in the feminist movement. It is false to continue to perpetuate that she had “no rights” as a woman until she fought for them…as that is just a bunch of LIES!

She was a well educated woman and again, its absolute BUNK…to continue to perpetuate that she was “unable” to succeed because she was a female!

When one applies oneself, has motivation and is determined enough…obstacles don’t STOP you!

I am not anger and bitter…nor, as I stated above, do I look to blame ANYONE for my lot in life…I know what I have achieved and how…I know how I have gotten here…and IT’S NOT because I have sat at home crying about how “unfair” it is for me as a woman in the work place!

I am an executive who has gotten here…because I work hard, apply myself, have acquired the skills, knowledge and experience I need…and not because someone handed it to me simply because I am a “female”.

Sorry…but women like yourself who continue to perpetuate the “gender issue” only HURT the rest of us…as I stated previously, you are not looking for equality…because we will NEVER be EQUAL…God created us specifically to be DIFFERENT!

If you look at our DNA, and compare it to a man’s guess what? EVERYTIME, it will be different!

If you think you want to earn more money…then go acquire more skills to do so…you think you are treated “unfairly” then QUIT your job and go find another…STOP, however, making lame excuses and looking for ridiculous things to blame!

It’s called Personal Responsibility and Accountability…something I know “intellects” like yourself generally don’t GET!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

Lady, I’m a male, and I know that that argument is a bunch of ****. The feminist movement isn’t about testing out who genetically is different or not; the feminist movement is about equal rights for women and men. You can’t say that denying a woman the right to vote was exactly equal. God created man and woman differently hormonally and physically, and even pyschologically. The brain of a man and a woman works differently. The feminist movement doesn’t deny this; the feminist movement is saying just because we’re different physically, mentally and hormonally, we shouldn’t have different rights in America. You were able to succeed in life, and that’s great. Do you think you would have the same chance at success if people like Susan B. Anthony didn’t do something about the disparity between men and women before you were born?

Your view on this is horribly arrogant and short-sighted.

 

[blessedtoo]

Lady, I’m a male, and I know that that argument is a bunch of ****. The feminist movement isn’t about testing out who genetically is different or not; the feminist movement is about equal rights for women and men. You can’t say that denying a woman the right to vote was exactly equal. God created man and woman differently hormonally and physically, and even pyschologically. The brain of a man and a woman works differently. The feminist movement doesn’t deny this; the feminist movement is saying just because we’re different physically, mentally and hormonally, we shouldn’t have different rights in America. You were able to succeed in life, and that’s great. Do you think you would have the same chance at success if people like Susan B. Anthony didn’t do something about the disparity between men and women before you were born?

Your view on this is horribly arrogant and short-sighted.

Could we possibly refrain from the personal attacks - all sides of the argument? It’s a topic that generates much passion, but we should be able to discuss without venomous assaults on character.

The feminist movement has, as it’s goal, a gender-neutral culture where all things are equal and the SAME despite obvious differences between the sexes. Their desire to even the playing field can be observed in the almost psychotic support for abortion, homosexual marriage and behavior, transsexualism, transgenderism, and just about every other trans-ism you can think of. Their influence can be observed in our public schools where the concept of reward for excellence has been all but abolished and replaced by a reward system for simply trying. Awards for all! Organized sports, which were once the avenue through which boys could express their maleness, are now equalized by this gender-neutral idealogy. Typically male expression has now been reduced to some sort of pathology which needs to be medicated. The goal is to make the classroom resemble the “consciousness raising” environment of the late 60’s feminist movement.

You can pick up any book written by virtually any feminist of that time and read their intentions, plainly spelled out for all. The push for legalized abortion began with the concept that women are “opressed” by their own biology, hence rendering them permanent victims of a patriarchal society and their own bodies. To equalize the playing field between the sexes, they set out to convince women that since men did not have to shoulder the “burden” of giving birth, women should not have to either.

Sexual promiscuity, while immoral across the board, is especially dangerous and harmful for women. Yes, the battle cry of the early feminists sought to make all things equal by encouraging women to “experiment” and sew their own wild oats. Women were told not to worry because if the easy access to birth control somehow failed them, they could always abort their baby, and go on with life, just like men do.

I often suspect that the biggest supporters of the so called feminist movement are those who have done very little research into the subject AS WRITTEN BY THE WOMEN THEMSELVES. The irony is the truth is readily available for anyone who earnestly seeks historical accuracy.

 

[Kaninchen]

The feminist movement has, as it’s goal, a gender-neutral culture where all things are equal and the SAME despite obvious differences between the sexes. Their desire to even the playing field can be observed in the almost psychotic support for abortion, homosexual marriage and behavior, transsexualism, transgenderism, and just about every other trans-ism you can think of.

When you were an active feminist, you found them in favor of things like transsexualism and transgenderism?

Amazing!

You see, at the age (though possibly not the same time) as you were such a feminist, I was on the ‘other side’ - not anti-feminist but actively anti-socialist and anti-communist (in a world where there were a lot of them about), so I wasn’t actually engaged with feminism at university and politics. One thing I remember very well, however, was that trans-people were regarded as a very bad thing . . . something that seemed a bit odd.

It does make me wonder about your time as an active feminist - it really does sound rather second-hand.

The goal is to make the classroom resemble the “consciousness raising” environment of the late 60’s feminist movement.

Could you please supply us with Chapter and Verse on this?

You can pick up any book written by virtually any feminist of that time and read their intentions, plainly spelled out for all. The push for legalized abortion began with the concept that women are “opressed” by their own biology, hence rendering them permanent victims of a patriarchal society and their own bodies. To equalize the playing field between the sexes, they set out to convince women that since men did not have to shoulder the “burden” of giving birth, women should not have to either.

Mary Daly was a much more fun and eccentric writer than merely that.

Sexual promiscuity, while immoral across the board, is especially dangerous and harmful for women. Yes, the battle cry of the early feminists sought to make all things equal by encouraging women to “experiment” and sew their own wild oats.

Chapter and verse?

I often suspect that the biggest supporters of the so called feminist movement are those who have done very little research into the subject AS WRITTEN BY THE WOMEN THEMSELVES. The irony is the truth is readily available for anyone who earnestly seeks historical accuracy.

Something they would appear to share with some of their critics.

 

[KES]

“feminism- Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. The movement organized around this belief.”

Any man or woman who does not claim to be a feminist should take another look and consider what feminism means. It is not a movement against men, it is not in trying to say women are better than men. It is about trying to change the systematic oppression of women. It is believing in human rights for all. Why would you not want to be a feminist?

 

[blessedtoo]

It does make me wonder about your time as an active feminist - it really does sound rather second-hand.
.

Well, I wasn’t around at the time but, you know, there are things about your use of language that just don’t read right for somebody who was supposedly part of it.

You’ve now questioned my “authenticity” twice. What credentials should I produce to satisfy your curiosity? Have I questioned your credibility due to your age? Your sarcasm is tiresome. You are free to refrain from dialogue with me if you think me a charlatan. I’m just fine with that!

 

[Naztakuan]

Actually, no…Susan B. Anthony was a teacher LONG before she became involved in the feminist movement. It is false to continue to perpetuate that she had “no rights” as a woman until she fought for them…as that is just a bunch of LIES!

She was a well educated woman and again, its absolute BUNK…to continue to perpetuate that she was “unable” to succeed because she was a female!

When one applies oneself, has motivation and is determined enough…obstacles don’t STOP you!

I am not anger and bitter…nor, as I stated above, do I look to blame ANYONE for my lot in life…I know what I have achieved and how…I know how I have gotten here…and IT’S NOT because I have sat at home crying about how “unfair” it is for me as a woman in the work place!

I am an executive who has gotten here…because I work hard, apply myself, have acquired the skills, knowledge and experience I need…and not because someone handed it to me simply because I am a “female”.

Sorry…but women like yourself who continue to perpetuate the “gender issue” only HURT the rest of us…as I stated previously, you are not looking for equality…because we will NEVER be EQUAL…God created us specifically to be DIFFERENT!

If you look at our DNA, and compare it to a man’s guess what? EVERYTIME, it will be different!

If you think you want to earn more money…then go acquire more skills to do so…you think you are treated “unfairly” then QUIT your job and go find another…STOP, however, making lame excuses and looking for ridiculous things to blame!

It’s called Personal Responsibility and Accountability…something I know “intellects” like yourself generally don’t GET!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

You know… It think the original poster was refering to women like you. He was blaming angry feminists but the woman he was describing. An angry powerful woman. That’s you he’s describing. If that’s the case then it’s not feminism after all that makes women angry and unhappy. You are not a femenist correct?
If that’s the case, the OP question has been solved. You solved it! The drive the anger the workaholic superiority complex type A ambition. None of that has anything to do with feminism.
It has to do with a woman’s personal temperment.

 

[blessedtoo]

You know… It think the original poster was refering to women like you. He was blaming angry feminists but the woman he was describing. An angry powerful woman. That’s you he’s describing. If that’s the case then it’s not feminism after all that makes women angry and unhappy. You are not a femenist correct?
If that’s the case, the OP question has been solved. You solved it! The drive the anger the workaholic superiority complex type A ambition. None of that has anything to do with feminism.
It has to do with a woman’s personal temperment.

What a fine contribution to this thread.

 

[Kaninchen]

You’ve now questioned my “authenticity” twice.

It’s your use of language - it doesn’t seem to fit.

What credentials should I produce to satisfy your curiosity?

Well, I may not have been around at the time but I’ve read quite a bit and I’ve come to know a number of ‘second wave’ feminists (and been given a hard time for my ‘most change came from other sources than feminism’ line) and your writing sounds much more like ‘stereotypes’ (“how many straw[wo]men can one fit into a sentence”) of them rather than a ‘second wave’ feminist who has found ‘the truth’.

Have I questioned your credibility due to your age? Your sarcasm is tiresome. You are free to refrain from dialogue with me if you think me a charlatan. I’m just fine with that!

Just put me on ‘ignore’.

 

[neat62]

You know… It think the original poster was refering to women like you. He was blaming angry feminists but the woman he was describing. An angry powerful woman. That’s you he’s describing. If that’s the case then it’s not feminism after all that makes women angry and unhappy. You are not a femenist correct?
If that’s the case, the OP question has been solved. You solved it! The drive the anger the workaholic superiority complex type A ambition. None of that has anything to do with feminism.
It has to do with a woman’s personal temperment.

Sorry, but not sure what you are trying to say here?

No, I am not a feminist, nor do I believe in ANY part of the “feminist” movement. I believe in Personal Responsibility and Accountability…you know, taking responsibility for your own choices, actions and decisions…I believe in working hard and applying the gifts God gave each of us…I believe that men and women are DIFFERENT, as God created us to be…I believe that the “feminist” movement has caused great harm to society, breaking it down and leading to moral decay.

I would much rather go back to the days of old, when women were women, and were NOT afraid to be so…and where men were men…and were NOT afraid to be so…all along, women have worked BESIDE men, doing their part.

Today, however, women don’t want to work along side men…they want to work “OVER” them…again, they want to achieve superiority and if you don’t believe that…ask yourself why do we even need a “feminist” movement today when women are allowed to hold positions in political office, they are executives of major businesses, they are doctors, lawyers, Supreme Court Justices…women are in combat roles, they are fire fighters, police officers, they are professors and astronauts, we even have women’s professional sports teams and women allowed to “compete” directly with men, i.e., golf, NASCAR, etc.

In fact, there is not one area of life in which women are “held back” from participating in…so what is the point of continuing the Feminist movement? Haven’t they achieved all they have desired?

Women are given preferences in opening small businesses, women are given preferences in gaining employment and access to education, they are given preferences in the military and all areas of public service…so what MORE do they need to “fight” for? What is the PURPOSE of the “feminists” today?

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

 

[neat62]

Lady, I’m a male, and I know that that argument is a bunch of ****. The feminist movement isn’t about testing out who genetically is different or not; the feminist movement is about equal rights for women and men. You can’t say that denying a woman the right to vote was exactly equal. God created man and woman differently hormonally and physically, and even pyschologically. The brain of a man and a woman works differently. The feminist movement doesn’t deny this; the feminist movement is saying just because we’re different physically, mentally and hormonally, we shouldn’t have different rights in America. You were able to succeed in life, and that’s great. Do you think you would have the same chance at success if people like Susan B. Anthony didn’t do something about the disparity between men and women before you were born?

Your view on this is horribly arrogant and short-sighted.

Yea, and this is your idea of “equality, compassion and tolerance” right…cause I don’t agree with your point of view, I am arrogant and short-sighted…sigh…I thought, AS A WOMAN, I was allowed to HAVE MY OWN OPINION…but apparently, ONLY if I AGREE with yours right? Yea…so much for that “equality” thing…

I think I would have been MORE successful BEFORE Susan B. Anthony, simply because my idea of “success” is NOT going out to work. My idea of success is RAISING a FAMILY, a family devoted to Christ, one that follows HIS teachings…not the immoral teachings of this world.

But…thanks to the Feminist movement…I am now forced to go out to work, forced be a wage earner…simply because it is now “expected”…a two income family is now the norm…leaving us with fewer children and those who have children, generally are forced to throw them in daycare too early, so someone else can raise them!

Women are asked to not only work OUT of the home, but IN IT as well…and guess what? Most are unhappy today, because, to their surprise, they aren’t capable of doing EVERYTHING!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

 

[Swan]

Actually, no…Susan B. Anthony was a teacher LONG before she became involved in the feminist movement. It is false to continue to perpetuate that she had “no rights” as a woman until she fought for them…as that is just a bunch of LIES!

She was a well educated woman and again, its absolute BUNK…to continue to perpetuate that she was “unable” to succeed because she was a female!

When one applies oneself, has motivation and is determined enough…obstacles don’t STOP you!

I am not anger and bitter…nor, as I stated above, do I look to blame ANYONE for my lot in life…I know what I have achieved and how…I know how I have gotten here…and IT’S NOT because I have sat at home crying about how “unfair” it is for me as a woman in the work place!

I am an executive who has gotten here…because I work hard, apply myself, have acquired the skills, knowledge and experience I need…and not because someone handed it to me simply because I am a “female”.

Sorry…but women like yourself who continue to perpetuate the “gender issue” only HURT the rest of us…as I stated previously, you are not looking for equality…because we will NEVER be EQUAL…God created us specifically to be DIFFERENT!

If you look at our DNA, and compare it to a man’s guess what? EVERYTIME, it will be different!

If you think you want to earn more money…then go acquire more skills to do so…you think you are treated “unfairly” then QUIT your job and go find another…STOP, however, making lame excuses and looking for ridiculous things to blame!

It’s called Personal Responsibility and Accountability…something I know “intellects” like yourself generally don’t GET!

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat

history.rochester.edu/class/sba/third.html

*Susan’s first involvement in the world of reform was in the temperance movement. This was one of the first expressions of original feminism in the United States and it dealt with the abuses of women and children who suffered from alcoholic husbands. In 1849, Susan gave her first public speech for the Daughters of Temperance and then helped found the Woman’s State Temperance Society of New York, one of the first organizations of its time. In 1851 she went to Syracuse to attend a series of antislavery meetings. During this time Susan met Elizabeth Cady Stanton, became fast friends and joined Stanton and Amelia Bloomer in campaigns for women’s rights. In 1854, she devoted herself to the antislavery movement serving from 1856 to the outbreak of the civil war,1861. Here, she served as an agent for the American Anti-slavery Society. After, she collaborated with Stanton and published the New York liberal weekly, “The Revolution” (1868-70) which called for equal pay for women.

In 1872, Susan demanded that women be given the same civil and political rights that had been extended to black males under the 14th and 15th amendments. Thus, she led a group of women to the polls in Rochester to test the right of women to vote. She was arrested two weeks later and while awaiting trial, engaged in highly publicized lecture tours and in March 1873, she tried to vote again in city elections. After being tried and convicted of violating the voting laws, Susan succeeded in her refusal to pay the fine. From then on she campaigned endlessly for a federal woman suffrage amendment through the National Woman Suffrage Association (1869-90) and the National American Woman Suffrage Association (1890-1906) and by lecturing throughout the country.

Anthony, along with Stanton and Matilda Joslyn Gage published the History of Woman Suffrage 4 vol (1881-1902) In 1888 she organized the International Council of Women and in 1904 the International Woman Suffrage Alliance. Although Anthony did not live to see the consummation of her efforts to win the right to vote for women, the establishment of the 19th amendment is deeply owed to her efforts.*

Lies? If she had so many rights, why bother to fight at all? Let’s see, to vote, to be able to own land, etc… It’s her and women like her you need to thank for your rights - because that’s how you got them.