Feminisms effect on women

[leftistdestroye]

Protect them from what?

Why do you think she would have ended up this way? That seems a classic either/or fallacy, to say that if she wasn’t this, she must have ended up this way. In fact, women were very well cared for in many historical patriarchal civilizations, though they received less rights than men. In the Puritan communities in America, for instance, or in Ching China before the Communist feminist movement, local village councils or community leaders would assemble to protect women who were severely abused.

Also, lack of rights has not always made women unhappy. Some men would feel happier if they were living under a monarchy (me, for instance), which would cut off a lot of my rights right now. My mother submits to her husband’s leadership in the household, though she has a great deal of influence too, and the pair of them work as a team. My Mom serves as a support for him, though. They love each other dearly and my mother is extremely happy with the situation.

Many women were enabled to see the world during the Enlightenment, when their husbands would sail with them overseas. Missionaries often took their wives with them. The British army often even brought along their women and children . If men were in the navy or were sailors, it’s true that their women couldn’t usually come with them on voyages. Kind of logical, really, if you ask me, considering the conditions of those trips. But feminism has not created the ability of women to travel.

Women have been involved in music since ancient days. You can see it in the ancient Israel, in Biblical accounts, and it has existed throughout history among women in many cultures. Including patriarchal ones. This is not a new thing feminism created.

That is good . . . but I know that in many historical patriarchal societies, there were safeguards. Perhaps not as good of safeguards as there are in modern societies, though considering the rate of rapes in the US, I have doubts about this . The number of women being raped in the US is stunningly high. It’s shockingly horrible.

It is true that historical views of women in patriarchal societies could often be very condescending. That is a stereotype of those eras, though.

This is not historical. Women in historical patriarchal eras had very good relationships with one another, most of the time. This isn’t true at all of the wife/mother-in-law relationships in historical patriarchal societies in China, though. Those relationships were awful and very abusive, almost all the time. In Europe, though, during the Medieval Ages, women and men often had very good relationships in villages and small communities. And women were generally contented with their lot, I think, because they believed that their condition was God’s will and thus were satisfied. My grandmother doesn’t think women should be in the work place. She is very happy with that view- in fact, she is a woman that is full of joy all the time. I wish you could know her, so you could have a firsthand knowledge of the truth of what I’m saying. But to me, this proves that women who grow up believing that their condition is right and ordered in the way it is according to God’s will, they can be very, very happy with it. Expectations and beliefs about right and wrong make a big difference. When women believe they should have the same place as men, they become unhappy and angry when they lack it, often. If they believe that they shouldn’t have the same place as men, then they’re happy without it.

Just like I might be happy without premarital sex because I don’t believe I should have it, but if I believed I was being restricted from having it by other people when I should be allowed it, I would become angry and dissatisfied. It makes a big difference what our expectations and beliefs are.

You explained it better than I could.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Kaninchen;3610766]

It’s clear that some people think that threads on feminism should be a continuous stream of ‘ain’t it awful’ ranting.

Is that your idea of equality? I’m sorry that you cannot see the unintended consequences of feminism on society as a whole, not just some good that has been achieved towards women alone.

 

[Calliso]

Kaninchen;3610766]

Is that your idea of equality? I’m sorry that you cannot see the unintended consequences of feminism on society as a whole, not just some good that has been achieved towards women alone.

It’s not that we donlt…its just that we donlt focus on it solely like many antifeminists do. And we in general tend to think the good outweighs the bad.

 

[Naztakuan]

Dale_M;3610464]

LOL Funny. My girlfriend has a Master’s degree and earns more than I do. Has a house, two cars, and supports her mother. And if you read any of the other items that I had mentioned, such as high divorce, abortion, mass promiscuity, you would understand that this has nothing to do with insecurities.

Oh, ok. Yeah, men used to beat women and cheat on them. Feminism was gunna “liberate” them from that. Guess what? (It still happens) Only now, women do it too.

16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Nowhere does it say man shall beat, belittle, cheat on, or anything else. It implies that men shall take the lead.

It implies that was a punishment not an ideal. Otherwise God would have said something before they had sinned. And yeah they do cheat, belittle and abuse. You make it sound like you begrudge your girlfriend because she makes more than you do.Just break up with her then if women like that bother you. Why don’t we just agree that no one likes a whore. That’s all you’re trying to say. And that’s fine but you can’t get mad at a woman for working hard and earning her way. There is no sin in that.

 

[strngrnrth]

I don’t think any of the guys here are going to get it. The world has changed at it’s going to stay that way. All the “ain’t it awful” people are probably pretty old and they’ll be dead soon. It’s gotten to a point where people with those mentalities will simply die out. They have no cultural influence on people who aren’t unhappy. Yeah, I think there is no way to get through to people still nursing the wounds of lost dominance. What anti-feminists are insisting is some sort of dramatic and potentially violent overhall of the present system. It would never work because such movements only work when they are freeing people, not restraining them.I hope you’re right. No one likes to be subjugated even for “their own good”. Thank you. The church is not sexist.Pope John Paul often lauded women who were making a big influence in society. What people are clinging to is their own personal preference which is fine. But to try to impose that on society as a whole is simply not going to work. And that’s the authoritarian fallacy. They see one way of doing things, they see one person happy witht hat way, and they assume it should be just as easy to impose it on everyone. The parts they don’t hear jangling loose in the motor are “impose” and “everyone”. Those are the parts that destroy joy.Women want to be able to take care of themselves even if they aren’t presently in a relationship. Some of seem to think getting married is just EASY PEASY. There WILL be points in your life where you WILL be alone. Learn to deal with it. Get a job, save up for a rainy day. That husband of yours should not be your meal ticket or you may find yourself in a bit of a jam when your husband inconveniently dies three years after you are wed leaving you penniless with a huge mortgage to pay off . So what do you do? You either get a job plus an education, OR you go into super desperate man hunting mode so you can pay all your bills. Let me just reiterate that catching a man will get harder and harder as you age.
Especially if you have nothing to offer and if you live in a pedophilic culture.
God is reasonable and kind. People are mean and judgemental. Some are.They’re rude and tend to resist any and all change even if it’s good for them. When a teacher of mine says something that is vicious, racist, or cruel and uses God’s name to get their point across, I know that isn’t God. That’s just a bitter human being who’s run out of leverage.

Exactly.

 

[SeekingCatholic]

Seeking Catholic

You seem very bitter towards women! lol Not all women are like you describe.

Well OF COURSE NOT. I happen to be married to one who is not. I am talking about generalities here. I can open my eyes and see the attitudes which many, many women in fact actually do have. They disgust me and I make no bones about it, and make no bones about the fact that I will not respect a person, or a group of people, who have only contempt for me and my group.

I for one support myself with my degree and my fiance can support himself. I will not have a man supporting me in any fashion.

That’s very nice. I take it you will split expenses 50-50 with your husband then, even if he makes more than you. I take it you favor the repeal of alimony and child support laws then. If not you are having a man support you in some fashion.

As far as sexual harassment laws, yes those should still be in place. Men take advantage of their power often to sexually exploit women.

Often?

Just b/c i have a job and I’m supporting myself does not mean I want some man to grab me. You bet your butt I’m going to sue the pants off of him.

These laws are not based according to an objective standard (which I would agree with), but the subjective standard of whatever the women happens to feel. Creating a “hostile environment” can mean whatever you want it to. Phony accusations of “sexual accusations” occur all the time. She should get the pants sued off her for destroying an innocent man’s reputation. Yet it never seems to happen.

However, these same laws protect MEN as well. There are some women out there who will sexually exploit men and the men go running to the law.

No, they don’t, because women’s method of sexually exploiting men is different than men’s method of exploiting women, and it is tolerated, sanctioned and even applauded by our society. After all, a “real man” should suck it up and take it. It’s considered acceptable, even in “conservative”, “traditional” environments, for women to lead on, flirt with, and just generally play around with men. He’s supposed to be a “real man” and have no feelings. It’s OK for her to go on expensive “dates”, be wined-and-dined and then claim they are “just friends”. And so on. Of course all this gets much worse in the general culture.

I’m not sheltered by men, I know what the real world is like and I am thriving in it without any problem… I do not approve of using sex to get what you want, I only approve of using your God given brain. To use your body would be the most degrading thing you could do and YES men do it as well.

Sure we do. We wear tight, immodest, revealing clothes all the time, uh, wait a second. Anyway, you really deny that many, many women actually do use sex to get what they want? Or even the phony promise of sex? That’s the real reason why women wear provocative outfits, not because they’re “victims” of our “sex-saturated culture”, as the phony pseudo-pious types would have it.

Also I know several women who have given their lives in the military for men who stay here at home taking care of their children…

A few exceptions doesn’t disprove a rule. The rule is that men give their lives for women far, far, far more often than the reverse. Our society is due to the sacrifices of men giving their lives far more than it is the result of women giving theirs.

Get out of the past my friend and open your eyes. You are just as angry and bitter as you claim these women to be. Just as bad.

Sure. And I’ll continue to be the same way, thank you very much, until the attitude of women starts to change.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Naztakuan;3611518]

I don’t think any of the guys here are going to get it. The world has changed at it’s going to stay that way.

Oh yeah? You are so sure? WWII was only 60 years ago. There may very well come a time, where how you do in an office, won’t determine how you live.

All the “ain’t it awful” people are probably pretty old and they’ll be dead soon. It’s gotten to a point where people with those mentalities will simply die out. They have no cultural influence on people who aren’t unhappy.

I am 34 years old. I intend to raise my children this way.

Marx say that change is only brought about when there is an intense contension amongst one class versus the superior class.

Someone should have told Lenin. And Gloria Steinem.

That’s how the Civil rights movement worked.That’s how India became independan and that’s how women got the right to vote. What anti-feminists are insisting is some sort of dramatic and potentially violent overhall of the present system. It would never work because such movements only work when they are freeing people, not restraining them. It was called the womens liberation. So what would the new movement be called? The women’s subjugation? You can’t make that sound nice no matter how you spin it. No one likes to be subjugated even for “their own good”. The American system likes to talk out both sides of its mouth on issues. For example, when men all left for war, SUDDENLY women “could do it too” meaning they could build armaments and war heads and even play baseball. What kind of lying system do we live in that suddenly tells women now that the war is over, you couldn’t actually do any of the things we just told you you could do. Go home.? Apparently noone knows what women are fully capable of.

Most people did a lot of farming and hard work up to and prior to WW2. It was well known what women were capable of. And I work with women in the construction industry. I know for a fact, that they are not equal. How do I know? Cause I do the lifting for them, and they get the cushy jobs. But I think that most women went home to have familes with the men who were getting shot at.

The church is not sexist.Pope John Paul often lauded women who were making a big influence in society. What people are clinging to is their own personal preference which is fine. But to try to impose that on society as a whole is simply not going to work.

Why not? That is what the feminists and Liberals did.

Here’s an example. A woman I know has Three young boys. Her husband died not long ago leaving her very little money. So the move to MD into an apartment complex. She homeschools them and She also runs a local homeschool for kids in the apartment complex. But they are so obviously poor. Her fridge and her pantry is virtually empty all the time. The boys do not even have their own room. All four of them sleep together in one bed.
Not to rag on her *now *but perhaps IF she had persued an education and a Job they wouldn’t be hanging onto their lives by a thread. She depended fully on her husband and it got her…not much. No back up plan, no house, and virtually no food. I always worry about what she’s going to do when the boys get to be 12 or 13. They can’t live like that forever.

And I saw a puppy get hit by a car today. Anymore rare, worstcase scenarios to back up feminism?

If a woman is gainfully employed, at least she’ll never be hungry or potentially homeless.

A job or a career? Hey, you made the distinction somewhere else lol My grandmother had a job before she met my grandfather. She actually supported both of them until he found a job. It DID exist in the past, like it or not.

That’s why I don’t worry about getting married. If I’m financially empowered, then I’m not going to complain. I would think it ungratefull on my part to focus on the fact that I’m NOT married and be grateful for that fact that I can support myself. That has nothing to do with what GOD thinks, it has to do with what PEOPLE think and I learned to tell the difference awhile back. God is reasonable and kind. People are mean and judgemental. They’re rude and tend to resist any and all change even if it’s good for them. When a teacher of mine says something that is vicious, racist, or cruel and uses God’s name to get their point across, I know that isn’t God. That’s just a bitter human being who’s run out of leverage.

I don’t recall God mentioning anything like what you said above. I found it nowhere in the Bible. There are MANY unintended consequences of feminism, that God would not support, and feminism(in conjunction with liberalism) has enabled them.

 

[strngrnrth]

So, if women are to live by the curse of domniation by men, are we also supposed to live by the curse of agricultural labor and bitter food? I recall that one was mainly for men. Get pulling the plows, men, and eat stuff you hate, like you’re supposed to do. Either that or the curse was something we are allowed to work to overcome, as in developing other ways to make a living, striving for equality, breeding more palatable foods, etc. Maybe Jesus even came to lift the curse.

 

[SeekingCatholic]

But you show just as much contempt as these supposed women do. You are no better

I will not respect those who have contempt for me due to my anatomy. Their attitude is contemptible, and contempt is what it deserves.

 

[leftistdestroye]

SpiritMeadow;3611807]

I’m 58 years old.

Well that explains everything.

which is universally seen as the better way.

Liberal humanist, are ya?

Promotion of separate but equal will not wash.

Yeah? Come to Chicago. It is working quite nicely here in the schools. (sarcasm off)

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Well OF COURSE NOT. I happen to be married to one who is not. I am talking about generalities here. I can open my eyes and see the attitudes which many, many women in fact actually do have. They disgust me and I make no bones about it, and make no bones about the fact that I will not respect a person, or a group of people, who have only contempt for me and my group.

Well then women can hold contempt for CERTAIN groups of men. My fiance is the most wonderful man I have ever met, but there are men out there that completely disgust me by being ignorant, sexist pigs. THOSE are the men that I hold contempt for. Not all men are like that and I have been extremely fortunate to know a lot who aren’t and unfortunate to know some who are.

That’s very nice. I take it you will split expenses 50-50 with your husband then, even if he makes more than you. I take it you favor the repeal of alimony and child support laws then. If not you are having a man support you in some fashion.

Obviously you have never been divorced or know much about the laws. For example the court will assign alimony to the person making the most money if they initiate the divorce. In my parents instance my dad was making well over $100,000 and my mom making $30,000 as a teacher. He cheated left right and sideways and initiated the divorce. Of course I think he should pay alimony!!! Now on the other hand if my mother were making the big bucks and SHE cheated on him then I would expect her to pay out the money as well. Child support is necessary for children. If you are irresponsible to have children and then think that you can leave and have no duty towards THEM then you are an irresponsible prick. I don’t care if you are the mother or the father. If I end up making more than my fiance and divorce him and we have children, I sure as hell will be paying child support and alimony! These laws aren’t for women to take advantage of men even though you like to think that to suit your own beliefs. The courts make those decisions.

Often?

Yes often rainn.org/statistics check it out.

These laws are not based according to an objective standard (which I would agree with), but the subjective standard of whatever the women happens to feel. Creating a “hostile environment” can mean whatever you want it to. Phony accusations of “sexual accusations” occur all the time. She should get the pants sued off her for destroying an innocent man’s reputation. Yet it never seems to happen.

I see this more of the macho male mindset. Is it a woman’s fault that a man doesn’t want to seem like a wuss? I am all for a man reporting any sexual harassment!! But it is the other men that think it is a wimp like thing to do…like why would a guy complain about having a woman come on to them.

No, they don’t, because women’s method of sexually exploiting men is different than men’s method of exploiting women, and it is tolerated, sanctioned and even applauded by our society. After all, a “real man” should suck it up and take it. It’s considered acceptable, even in “conservative”, “traditional” environments, for women to lead on, flirt with, and just generally play around with men. He’s supposed to be a “real man” and have no feelings. It’s OK for her to go on expensive “dates”, be wined-and-dined and then claim they are “just friends”. And so on. Of course all this gets much worse in the general culture.

Like I said above

Sure we do. We wear tight, immodest, revealing clothes all the time, uh, wait a second. Anyway, you really deny that many, many women actually do use sex to get what they want? Or even the phony promise of sex? That’s the real reason why women wear provocative outfits, not because they’re “victims” of our “sex-saturated culture”, as the phony pseudo-pious types would have it.

I didn’t deny that women did that, I said it was WRONG and DEGRADING. I have never used sex to get what I want b/c I think it diminishes my intellectual capability to do so. Women who want the easy way out or who are too stupid to do it intellectually use sex. Makes me sick.

A few exceptions doesn’t disprove a rule. The rule is that men give their lives for women far, far, far more often than the reverse. Our society is due to the sacrifices of men giving their lives far more than it is the result of women giving theirs.

Maybe only b/c women weren’t ALLOWED to join the military by MEN and thus did not sacrifice their lives…but they helped take care of things here at home so all hell wouldn’t break lose. Now that women are allowed to join they have been and doing an outstanding job!

 

[Naztakuan]

Naztakuan;3610459]

I meant it as in the initiator.

To a point, yes.

Don’t know where that came from.

But now, it is okay to have both parents, if they even have two parents living with them, to go to work?

No, I am saying society is pandering to women, specifically, less to boys. And college does not make one smarter or increase inteligence. Somebody said that kids should be allowed to do what they want, but why is it that motherhood and/or marriage is pushed like college is? Because of feminism. This is how feminism has been mainstreamed into society.

LOL The last time I heard that, we ended up with feminism. No thanks.

And all of what you said, has resulted in high divorce rates, more abortion, mass promiscuous sex, a rise in STD’s, economic difficulty, less focus boys and more on girls, less children, a rise in cohabitation, etc.

So what is your point? An ugly, stupid chick can’t get a date? Yeah, and…? I don’t know what kind of money she makes, but modern men may like a woman with money. So one example? Come on.

Sure, and we end up with a bunch of unintended societal consequences. Again, who is told that motherhood and being a stay at home mom, is a good thing anymore? Nobody. I’ve seen women in the offices talk down about that. Of course, it is the younger ones right out of colleges, but…

She makes like no money. She’s a moron. Morons can only make money if they were attractive or something. There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom if that is what you want. But it shouldn’t be because you’re too stupid to do things on your own and still live at home with your parents. You should be able to function during those times you are alone. Young women should be focusing on their jobs and education. When they are a little more mature, then they can get married. Marriage is for mature adults. It’s the same reason you start at the bottom of your career and steadily move upward. Oftentimes people get married too young and they don’t know anything about the world or themselves. Then they have children and they’re fighting all the time about stuff and that’s why they get divorced. My grandmother got her college education, became a teacher and she married at around 24/25 to another teacher. Sometimes they disagreed about things like education. Her husband didn’t believe that the children deserved a private catholic education so he refused to pay. So my grandmother worked some extra jobs to pay for her children’s schooling. She was too old to take the title feminist(born in the 20s) but that’s exactly what she was. Women did what needed to be done including working extra to give your kids the same education as the white kids. Sometimes you gotta do what needs to be done and waiting for a man to do it for you is a pointless endevor. You can sit on your butt and wait and wait until you die. I’m not going to wait a million years for some guy to sweep me off my feet. I have dreams and a life to live.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Maybe Jesus even came to lift the curse.

right on

Jesus died to forgive us of ALL our sins, even original. It is because of Him that can be forgiven and can be pure enough to enter heaven. He had to become human and die to take our punishment to offset the original sin…so that stuff from the old Test. Genesis is moot after Christ! That is why Mary is sin as the new Eve b/c she was created sinless, etc

 

[Dale_M]

LOL Funny.

Thanks for taking that with good humor. I shouldn’t have used the rolling on the floor laughing emoticon - its use was uncharitable, and I regret it.

And if you read any of the other items that I had mentioned, such as high divorce, abortion, mass promiscuity, you would understand that this has nothing to do with insecurities.

Abortion is an evil - it needs to be stopped. Promiscuity is a problem - our culture needs to come up with better standards than teaching sexiness is power. High divorce rates are also a problem, but I think the reasons people get divorced now also existed before feminism -its just that now women can leave.

Yeah, men used to beat women and cheat on them. Feminism was gunna “liberate” them from that. Guess what? (It still happens)

Yes, but most women are no longer trapped in abusive relationships. They have the option to get out, and this makes a huge difference.

16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Nowhere does it say man shall beat, belittle, cheat on, or anything else. It implies that men shall take the lead.

I’m not sure why you think the verse is prescriptive rather than descriptive. Certainly women have endured pain in childbirth, but that doesn’t make it a good thing. We don’t deny women pain medicine when in labor based upon Scripture. In modern times we have the ability to relieve pain, and we have the ability to treat men and women as equal partners. Its not like most of history when housework and obtaining food were full-time occupations which necessitated strict sex roles/division of labor. We have advanced beyond that, and there is no reason to continue the submission of women to men.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Calliso;3612285]

Naztakuan was the one who kept bringing up physical characterists when we were discussing behavior, not me.

Oh. Sorry bout that.

I will give you that at least in terms of divorce women do legally have more power in relationships these days. However you will have to explain the having all the power in society thing to me. I mean I am pretty sure the majority of the heads of companies are men, the majority of people in politics are men and the majority of the leaders of countries are you guessed it men! So you will have to explain to me how women have complete power in society. Cause as far as I can see things are still more or less run by men. And you have all done SUCH a good job of things haven;t you!..

I said society, not government, not companies, SOCIETY. Big difference. How have men done such a bad job of things? What makes you think women could do it better, lil miss PMS? The majority of women, prefer to work for a man, than a woman, and that is very telling. How comfortable is your life? How bad is your life that you can sit on a computer and waste time like we all do? Chances are, you can thank more men for that, than women. You aren’t speaking German or Japanese, or even Russian because of more men, than women.

 

[leftistdestroye]

Carolinagirl411;3612396

I will not have a man supporting me in any fashion.

You see all, that, is manly.

As far as sexual harassment laws, yes those should still be in place. Men take advantage of their power often to sexually exploit women. Just b/c i have a job and I’m supporting myself does not mean I want some man to grab me. You bet your butt I’m going to sue the pants off of him. However, these same laws protect MEN as well. There are some women out there who will sexually exploit men and the men go running to the law. Equal

Equal misery. How nice. Thank you.(roll eyes)

Also I know several women who have given their lives in the military for men who stay here at home taking care of their children

Several? Wow. That may be about 75% of women who lost their lives in the millitary.

Get out of the past my friend and open your eyes. You are just as angry and bitter as you claim these women to be. Just as bad.

LOL I love your arrogance. We all may live to see the day when men have their backs against the wall in this nation. And if that day comes, your arrogance will be the first thing that get’s you in some serious trouble. There was very good reason why men used to be dominant. And it could very well happen again, so soak it up.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Calliso;3612285]

What makes you think women could do it better, lil miss PMS?

that was very uncalled for! unchristian, uncharitable, and offensive!

 

[mom4truth]

Pope Gregory,

AMEN to that!

 

[leftistdestroye]

Naztakuan;3612606]

A close family friend married the "ideal " woman, she never worked, had no education, had no job skills, perfectly submissive wife and mother. This was the type this man was attracted to inititally. Eventually when his four children were getting older, taking care of them was becoming more difficult on them financially. They ended up divorcing. Theoretically because he couldn’t afford to support such dead weight. It would be better for everyone that she moved out and got a job. So she works at wallmart and lives by herself. Up until then it was like taking care of five children instead of four.

Yeah, why would anyone want to marry such a POS that leaves his wife and family. I guess that he is part of the 25% of men who initiate divorce as opposed to the 75% of women who do.

Ooo, I saw another puppy get hit by a car! Poor thing. Maybe we should put all puppies through dog training, so that won’t happen anymore.

 

[Carolinagirl411]

Oh and leftistdestroye

I just saw your post directed at me…what is your problem really? Do you HAVE to have such an attitude. If you look at my other post I answer any attacks to that particular one you seem to have singled out

How is it MANLY to want to take care of myself? HUH? I call it RESPONSIBLE and wanting to be an ADULT. Relying on someone else to take care of your issues is childish and so are your comebacks!

My Arrogance? The person whom I was ACTUALLY speaking to made comments on how he couldn’t stand women holding him in contempt. I was trying to prove a point that he was also holding them in contempt and generalizing since not ALL women fit those descriptions and he agreed with me! You seem to show nothing but bitterness and disdain without ever bringing anything of substance to the table. That isn’t arrogance that is my opinion

Many of your comments are completely uncharitable and uncalled for

as far as the military issue which you seem to be focused on, I already addressed that…MEN did not ALLOW women to join! So they couldn’t sacrifice. That is slowly changing and will take time. After all men make the rules the majority of the time in government. Take it up with THEM!

I am proud and honored that the men out their gave their lives for me so that I may live here and I am also grateful. I don’t see them as MEN doing it I see them as Fellow Americans fighting and they deserve all the honor and respect.